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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    Over the last 8 years I've played 10 of 11 classes over enough time to see them evolve to a point where I consider myself versed enough to make that statement. I've also played locks, warriors, rogues, druids and mages and paladins at various points where I would have called them my main.

    I'm looking inwards as someone who's taken a break and played a lot of different games. My default UI uses dominos and I usually have the 12 number keys plus alt and shift-bound hotkeys to bind various abilities. My muscle memory is still good enough at this point that I can jump right back in and play a MoP mage, lock or pally.

    There is too much going on. There is too much rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock. There's too many buttons. Try taking a step outside the WoW box for a second and think like someone fresh to the game: It's overwhelming.
    This is actually what separates WOW from the other MMO's (for me that is). I am simply not challenged or engaged by the playstyle of other MMO's (that I have seen) and a major part of that is a lack of complexity of play. As to what you said about someone fresh to the game being overwhelmed, my response would be - that's what leveling is for.

    You shouldn't have to watch videos or read verbose third party guides to learn how to play your class effectively. Maybe to "master" your class, but not to get up to a standard you'd call acceptable.
    I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the game currently is not this way. Most classes allow you to spam a few abilities and be somewhat effective, while properly knowing and executing rotations and expert use of abilities allows a player to separate themselves.

    There are other ways to add diversity to classes than just lathering on more abilities that need to be countered by some other class's new abilities.
    Diversity yes but not necessarily complexity, which is what I prefer.

    For me, I would prefer more niche use abilities. This is simply my preference of gameplay and completely subjective but I wanted to weigh in with a different perspective.
    Last edited by Vladamyr; 2013-08-23 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    @kenbud: Oh can you rebuff after a wipe if AI isn't bound? Did you ever consider Armor swapping on some fight? I'm not even talking about the fire's armor swap. On Animus progression as frost, I used to began the fight with Molten then switch to Frost after my add is dead.

    Like for Flame straike, your add died really fast because you're now over-gear. How long he take for the bat or any other add like that to die in the first 2 month of ToT?
    To be egual to blizzard/AE, they add to died in 4s. Did you ever consider that FS is 1.8s cast then you can do other thingfs like refresh dot, cast AM/AB, switch to tortos to keep ignite high, switch to the little turtle that aren't dead.
    yes, FS need work for being good as you have to anticipate Add pop and pre-cast it.

    The best combo, you can do, is to time Frost bomb and FS with Freeze/Frost nova ... you should try it as Frost on the trash before Qwon. You should be able to do more than 1M dps on 525+.

    For what Klingers said is true, if you remove most of the rarely used ability, you're rotation just need 10-12 key (blink, Evoc & TW include).
    Not sure if there is a language barrier here but when I say bind I mean an actual key bind, not just on your bars. I don't bind non combat abilities as there is no need. If you want key bind to armor swap then that is your own prerogative not a necessity. Put that stuff on the far right and click them once before each fight. And again I will say who cares about trash dps? Or bat damage? Every instance you have mentioned accept pre casting on Ji-Kun makes little to no sense. I raid 25 man, Mage AoE sucks compared to many classes so its always been their job to quickly AoE adds down. You know I'm done arguing this. This all started because of Akraens comment, im not for removing FS, I like the spell I just don't use it in raid because there is no personal need for me too. Blizzard does the comparable damage and generates FoF, FS does not. AE spam hits harder as arcane and generates missiles, FS does not. Go trash hero all you want but on a boss fight it comes down to personal preference.

  3. #203
    Warchief gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    Is Fire Blast needed for non Fire Specs?

    Is Ice Lance strictly necessary outside of Frost?

    Is Armor design obsolete? For the most part, people simply run in the armor for their spec (although I believe high end Fire Mages are switching to Mage Armor for maximising combustion, but given how that cooldown recently got gutted it's debatable whether such armor switching is worth it I guess).

    Bloat could be partly managed by locking more spells behind the spec walls, especially if the abilities are useless to the other 2 specs.

    A bit more extreme would be the removal of the bomb tier. That tier has a serious affect on playstyle, making the specs more samey than I think is healthy.

    Minor off topic suggeston. Remove Flamestrike. Remove Nether Tempest (we are not multi-dotters). Make Living Bomb Baseline for Fire. Restore Blast Wave in the fifth talent tier along side Frost Bomb. Frost Bomb Secondary effect could be to slow. Blast Wave to stun briefly.
    Devise a new AOE talent, perhaps one that knocks back.

    The fifth tier becomes an AOE focussed tier.
    what if u get locked out of fire? what are u gonna use if u need to put out some dmg to finish someone off... or vice versa

  4. #204
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I think Flamestrike should be changed, of course. Could just serve as fire's version of Blizzard.

    But I have used it in ToT on trash, as a pre-cast on Ji-Kun, Megaera wyrms (sometimes), Twin consorts (lurkers), and Lei Shen to great success.

    It's fine if you haven't used it, but to say that there is no use for it at all is pretty ignorant.
    For my case specifically, my raid leader(s) told me (and the other Mage) not to use AoEs because it's a DPS loss on bosses to bother with it. This pretty much applies to anything with AoE (Megaera Wyrms, Day Phase Twins, and Lei Shen Ball Lightnings), and to just leave it to the other clothies (SPriests and Warlocks).


    Should I actually need some long-term AoE, I'd use Flamestrike, but the problem is that a portion of its damage relies on the enemies staying there after using it, AND that they stay in that area, on top of having a cast time and a cooldown. Flamestrike simply has too many negatives tied to it for it to be of any real use outside of a couple niches (as you said, Pre-cast on Ji-Kun)

    - Cast Time (used to be instant)
    - Cooldown (used to be spammable)
    - Not all damage is instant (enemies must stay in the area/stay alive long enough to get the full DPET out of it)
    *- Slows enemies

    * Is sometimes a bad thing, depending on fights, but I'm not actually counting it; just pointing it out.

    I don't want Flamestrike removed, I just want it to not be garbage and back to its former Cataclysm glory. I also want Blastwave back and not tied to a garbage version of Flamestrike.

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  5. #205
    I always thought it would be neat if Flamestrike applied a DOT to all the targets it hits, as if they were burning, instead of the silly fire circle mechanic.
    Let Reason Prevail

  6. #206
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    For my case specifically, my raid leader(s) told me (and the other Mage) not to use AoEs because it's a DPS loss on bosses to bother with it. This pretty much applies to anything with AoE (Megaera Wyrms, Day Phase Twins, and Lei Shen Ball Lightnings), and to just leave it to the other clothies (SPriests and Warlocks).


    Should I actually need some long-term AoE, I'd use Flamestrike, but the problem is that a portion of its damage relies on the enemies staying there after using it, AND that they stay in that area, on top of having a cast time and a cooldown. Flamestrike simply has too many negatives tied to it for it to be of any real use outside of a couple niches (as you said, Pre-cast on Ji-Kun)

    - Cast Time (used to be instant)
    - Cooldown (used to be spammable)
    - Not all damage is instant (enemies must stay in the area/stay alive long enough to get the full DPET out of it)
    *- Slows enemies

    * Is sometimes a bad thing, depending on fights, but I'm not actually counting it; just pointing it out.

    I don't want Flamestrike removed, I just want it to not be garbage and back to its former Cataclysm glory. I also want Blastwave back and not tied to a garbage version of Flamestrike.
    Your raid leader should maybe be less of a micro manager.

  7. #207
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Your raid leader should maybe be less of a micro manager.
    For many attempts on LS, we barely got out of P2 before the 5th Balls. Had us two Mages been attacking them, we probably wouldn't have made it.

    ... NOT to mention that spreading Combustion will do a LOT more damage to balls than any of our AoEs will.

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  8. #208
    It is a rare thing to see mages put up a refreshment table these days, even in raids, unless there is a lot of nagging and asking for it. While everyone else promptly puts up cooking banquets, soul wells, buff everyone and getting ready as soon as they enter an instance, the refreshment table is usually missing, even with lots of mages.

    So I am guessing mages have either forgotten they have this spell, or consider it useless. So I'd propose it for the bloat axe.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Your raid leader should maybe be less of a micro manager.
    Or he's being smart in assigning roles. I do the same thing in my raids.

    Overall DPS numbers are pretty much meaningless. Could you toss in a few shitty AoE spells and boost your overall DPS? Sure. But if your main job (and what your class is best at) is dumping damage into a single target and just passively cleaving to help, then you casting AoE is actively hurting your raid. And as fire, you cleave way better than you AoE.

    Fights like Tortos and Lei Shen come to mind when talking about DPS target prioritizing and cheesing personal DPS, only to hurt the raid overall.

  10. #210
    We need more buttons if anything.

    Removal of armour importance/slowfall dispell protections/rank 1 FB ect made mages skill-less and really unfun to play PvP wise.

  11. #211
    HELLO. We use mana gem in pvp whenever we need ANOTHER spell steal. Do not take it away.

  12. #212
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Or he's being smart in assigning roles. I do the same thing in my raids.

    Overall DPS numbers are pretty much meaningless. Could you toss in a few shitty AoE spells and boost your overall DPS? Sure. But if your main job (and what your class is best at) is dumping damage into a single target and just passively cleaving to help, then you casting AoE is actively hurting your raid. And as fire, you cleave way better than you AoE.

    Fights like Tortos and Lei Shen come to mind when talking about DPS target prioritizing and cheesing personal DPS, only to hurt the raid overall.
    Omg, anyone who uses overall DPS as the end-all just pisses me off.

    "Oh look, Pew doesn't have any ranks as Fire. I guess he's garbage".

    Or rather that I do my job, don't scumbag like sitting 100% on Horridon, and I don't have Rogues constantly giving me tricks at my demand.

    If I was a Warlock, I totally wouldn't put DoTs on the other head for Megaera either. No point to because it's a true DPS loss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    We need more buttons if anything.
    "Bloat" removal will end up making Arcane a 1 button spec and Fire/Frost a 2 button spec. We really do need more buttons, but we also need DoTs removed. Arcane and Frost (excluding Frostfire Bolt's piddly weak DoT it had) never had DoTs until 5.0. Why we needed them all of a sudden is beyond me... Arcane kinda works well with it though because of its Mastery, so maybe keep it there, but I feel like Frost Bomb or NT should be scrapped completely for a different kind of spell that isn't a DoT (maybe a 1m button like Priests/Paladins have for their L90s?)

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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    never had DoTs until 5.0.
    Living Bomb has been around since BC homeslice. Well the 2 weeks before wrath but I guess technically we couldn't use it then. Either way its been around a while.
    Last edited by Kenbud; 2013-08-23 at 09:47 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Living Bomb has been around since BC homeslice. Well the 2 weeks before wrath but I guess technically we couldn't use it then. Either way its been around a while.
    Cutting out half a sentence, why? You're purposely misrepresenting his words. Living Bomb was a deep-fire tree talent - therefore Arcane and Frost never had access to it. Which is exactly what he said - Arcane and Frost never had DoTs.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Cutting out half a sentence, why? You're purposely misrepresenting his words. Living Bomb was a deep-fire tree talent - therefore Arcane and Frost never had access to it. Which is exactly what he said - Arcane and Frost never had DoTs.
    Not going to lie I read quickly abd missed the part about frost and arcane only, thought it was a general statement for mages. I read and post from my phone during the day so sometimes I miss stuff. Statement redacted. On his topic though I do enjoy NT as frost with super high haste, number everywhere, just keeps up the fast pacedness of the entire spec. I really like the bomb tier only think I would say is something could be done to further spectate LB and NT.
    Last edited by Kenbud; 2013-08-23 at 10:03 PM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Not going to lie I read quickly abd missed the part about frost and arcane only, thought it was a general statement for mages. I read and post from my phone during the day so sometimes I miss stuff. Statement redacted. On his topic though I do enjoy NT as frost with super high haste, number everywhere, just keeps up the fast pacedness of the entire spec. I really like the bomb tier only think I would say is something could be done to further spectate LB and NT.
    My personal preference would be to make all the bombs baseline and add more interesting talents in their place. But that's just me.

    Stuff like druid DoC or HoTW come to mind when I think of really cool talents.

  17. #217
    Arcane barrage, Fire Blast and Ice lance could be made into one button changing with specialization

    Same goes for Armors

    Same goes for Arcane explosion, Flamestrike and Blizzard (and obviously rework flamestrike etc)

    90talent tiers and bombs-talent tier could be removed/replaced with living bomb being baseline fire.

    No use for Teleport when you have portals.

    Managem Baseline arcane

    I'm all for making each spec more limited to their characteristic element. I don't really like ruining the theme with stuff like casting Frost spells like Ice Barrier when you're Fire.

  18. #218
    The Lightbringer b2121945's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiep View Post
    Arcane barrage, Fire Blast and Ice lance could be made into one button changing with specialization
    No. Ice Lance is used in PvP even by fire mages because of spell reflect. Fire Blast WAS used in the past by all specs. Arcane Barrage is already arcane only spell.

    Same goes for Armors
    No. You use every one of them in PvP, depending on the comp you're against.

    90talent tiers and bombs-talent tier could be removed/replaced with living bomb being baseline fire.
    I would agree, if Frost Bomb was viable in PvP. It isn't.

    No use for Teleport when you have portals.
    Then enjoy cities being full of portals because mages can't use teleport.

    Managem Baseline arcane
    Spellsteal costs 21% of base mana. Mana Gem is used in PvP by all specs.

    You seriously have no idea how mage works in PvP. You just want to gut this class so you don't feel bad about yourself because you're unable to bind every ability.
    Protip: you don't have to. Just ignore spells that are too hard for you.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2013-08-27 at 09:12 AM.

  19. #219
    How exactly is Frost Bomb not viable in PvP? Just because it gets countered in 2k+ arena doesn't mean it's not viable. It wrecks in lower brackets and RBGs.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Then enjoy cities being full of portals because mages can't use teleport.
    That's actually a great point! I'm against the removal of teleports, but haven't thought about this aspect.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-08-24 at 08:45 AM. Reason: I meant Teleports, not Portals

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