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  1. #1

    Why are mmos still boxes and turrets

    If you remove all of the graphics in wow you have boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets on for the most part a flat 2d plane

    the question is. when will mmorpgs evolve beyond this. this style of gameplay has not changed since wow came out and there was a limitation of system hardware server hardware and slow internet connections. now we have dsl and are rolling out faster and faster internet as time goes on.

    why are so many mmo's still boxes and turrets with fancy graphics painted on. i would play any game that had less stellar shiny pretty graphics if when you removed the graphics the game was more then boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets.

    where is the mmo where a dragon or technological monstrosity comes down from the sky and the first thing everyone attacks is the legs and wings rather then just a box or a selectable target.

    we have the technology but i guess Fancy graphics>Interesting game play?

    is there any good reason every mmo has to be boxes and turrets?

    its 2013 wow came out 2004 its been 9 years still boxes and turrets.

    are there any mmos that are more then boxes or turrets or has the race for strong fancy graphics stripped all mmos of any deeper potential with 3d immersive twitchy combat not call of duty level but a level where you are looking at the screen not looking for instructions on whats going to happen next no addons no help with the game but with bosses like in zelda where your given tells of what might happen next and you have to prepare accordingly.

    if you want to get technical bosses in zelda had more complexity then a wow boss in terms of its hitbox its been 15 years since oots and majoras mask for the 64 and no one has been able to make any kind of a mmo with variable hitboxes on enemies aiming and careful planning of your attacks. i guess gamers cant be trusted to properly aim there attacks react or defend themselves against clever enemies. you need targeting or auto targeting on a enemy.

    also oots had z targeting why cant any mmo i have ever played have z targeting just for the camera

    well enough ranting if anyone knows of a good mmo that is inventive creative has freedom of movement strong tactics and variable hitboxes well..ill play it :3

    if a kind moderator could change my title post to why are mmos still boxes and turrets

    - - - Updated - - -

    is it to much to ask in a fantasy mmo to have combat that is not just boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets?

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Lemposs's Avatar
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    I think it is a latency and calculation problem mostly. Having 3-4000 people needing calculated damage on where and how they hit a target is a huge obstacle to pass, that and physics is also a rather hard thing to pull off when a lot people are pulling on these resources. But we are beginning to see a move towards a more free style of combat.

  3. #3
    Well, there is no way to not have squares battling other squares for the most part. To "get beyond" such a thing would require high technology that is cost prohibitive for developers and consumers.

    This is not exclusive to MMOs, btw. Doom, Half-Life, Final Fantasy, Rygar, Robotron and Dark Souls are cubes smashing into other cubes or avoiding cubes.

    Video games are about rules.

  4. #4
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    You're talking about action combat I presume, and look at TERA if you're interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray cosmic radiation View Post
    also oots had z targeting why cant any mmo i have ever played have z targeting just for the camera
    as to this, FFXIV actually lets you.

  5. #5
    for once it seems console gaming is taking the lead in terms of 'evolved mmos' Looking at almost any games on the xbox one and ps4 and chances are it is online, many now adopting this '100's of people in the same world' that makes mmo's what they are. even current gen hardware is showing promise with gta v, sure its only 16 players online but with every other aspect of an mmo thrown in.

    This really is an exciting time for gaming on consoles, and its a shame that games such as wow, and pc exclusive mmo's / games are not making this kind of leap :/ to me, wow is really starting to show its age and NEEDS something to revamp it, or people are going to play console games to get the same mmo feel they get in wow but with much better graphics and more exciting / skillful gameplay.

  6. #6
    Ok, the actual main issue with what you are talking about has to do with two issues: variable PC hardware and bandwidth.

    First, people play MMOs on a lot of different hardware, as opposed to stuff like CoD which is made primarily for static consoles with predictable hardware setup. To optimize for this, the best way is to strip things down to the basics. This is especially true for MMOs, like WoW, that want to be accessible to people with older PCs.

    Second, with any MMO, the amount of data you need to transmit back and forth for any kind of variable hitbox can be a hindrance. Again, MMO designers have to assume that players will be playing with a wide variety of internet connections, so they go with simplicity to allow those with slower connections a better chance to play.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    The only way we can fix this is with virtual reality. Or in other words matrix style. Because it will be person hiting boxes and not turret boxes.

  8. #8
    I don't find mmo graphics to be a problem - it's more about imagination.

  9. #9
    Problem with the thought of attacking various bits of the target, aka your wings on the dragon example, is people would inevitably figure out where you hit things for best efficiency, everyone gravitates to that, and then it's not really any different than the single box we have now.

    The extra pieces that have to be contended with while hitting the box, that's pretty much the best available way they have to keep things interesting.

  10. #10
    I'd like to see how you enjoy your precious "twitchy combat" on 250+ ms latency. Not everyone lives right next door to the server, ya know.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    Problem with the thought of attacking various bits of the target, aka your wings on the dragon example, is people would inevitably figure out where you hit things for best efficiency, everyone gravitates to that, and then it's not really any different than the single box we have now.
    Firefall is a shooter mmo with excactly that - try to aim to weakspots and hope that your enemy isn't that much moving. Just imagine a boss has to be kited where melees try to be in range of a really little hitbox. Then you give melees more other hitboxes with less damage but greater accessability.. e viola


    Technology is already there, but we have not many mmos with free aim support combat

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray cosmic radiation View Post
    If you remove all of the graphics in wow you have boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets on for the most part a flat 2d plane

    the question is. when will mmorpgs evolve beyond this. this style of gameplay has not changed since wow came out and there was a limitation of system hardware server hardware and slow internet connections. now we have dsl and are rolling out faster and faster internet as time goes on.

    why are so many mmo's still boxes and turrets with fancy graphics painted on. i would play any game that had less stellar shiny pretty graphics if when you removed the graphics the game was more then boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets.

    where is the mmo where a dragon or technological monstrosity comes down from the sky and the first thing everyone attacks is the legs and wings rather then just a box or a selectable target.

    we have the technology but i guess Fancy graphics>Interesting game play?

    is there any good reason every mmo has to be boxes and turrets?

    its 2013 wow came out 2004 its been 9 years still boxes and turrets.

    are there any mmos that are more then boxes or turrets or has the race for strong fancy graphics stripped all mmos of any deeper potential with 3d immersive twitchy combat not call of duty level but a level where you are looking at the screen not looking for instructions on whats going to happen next no addons no help with the game but with bosses like in zelda where your given tells of what might happen next and you have to prepare accordingly.

    if you want to get technical bosses in zelda had more complexity then a wow boss in terms of its hitbox its been 15 years since oots and majoras mask for the 64 and no one has been able to make any kind of a mmo with variable hitboxes on enemies aiming and careful planning of your attacks. i guess gamers cant be trusted to properly aim there attacks react or defend themselves against clever enemies. you need targeting or auto targeting on a enemy.

    also oots had z targeting why cant any mmo i have ever played have z targeting just for the camera

    well enough ranting if anyone knows of a good mmo that is inventive creative has freedom of movement strong tactics and variable hitboxes well..ill play it :3

    if a kind moderator could change my title post to why are mmos still boxes and turrets

    - - - Updated - - -

    is it to much to ask in a fantasy mmo to have combat that is not just boxes and turrets fighting other boxes and turrets?
    Entropia Universe would like to have a word with you.
    Elder Scrolls Online will probably be as interactive as Skyrim, combat wise.
    EVE Online may be in space, but it's 10 years ahead technology wise of what's currently on the mainstream casual MMO market. (e.g. WoW, Rift, SWTOR, Tera and other bullshit)
    Age of Conan had a different combat system, but it wasn't really to my liking.

  13. #13
    Vindictus, and it's been out in NA since 2010 and probably the most 'twitch' based fantasy MMO on the market. The downside is that connection and lag can adversely affect your experience. It's not an exception to the box vs box MMO combat, but it uses more boxes so it's not as simple as your tab target games that use a single hitbox for range/hit detection. Your weapons also have hit boxes, and bosses have multiple hit boxes to smooth out hit detection and to add a layer of complexity to combat. Things like tail swipes, being able to run underneath and around a dragon's legs, dodging stomps/charges. It also helps that it runs on the source engine so physics and collision detection comes into play as well.

    Here's what I mean:



    This is an example of the hit boxes on an attack vs some regular gnolls in a test room where you can see the full range of hit detection on an attack during its smash on one of the newest weapons released in the game.

    where is the mmo where a dragon or technological monstrosity comes down from the sky and the first thing everyone attacks is the legs and wings rather then just a box or a selectable target.
    This:


    Wings, horns, tail, spines (front legs) can be broken off (for crafting).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Goosie View Post
    Vindictus, and it's been out in NA since 2010 and probably the most 'twitch' based fantasy MMO on the market. The downside is that connection and lag can adversely affect your experience. It's not an exception to the box vs box MMO combat, but it uses more boxes so it's not as simple as your tab target games that use a single hitbox for range/hit detection. Your weapons also have hit boxes, and bosses have multiple hit boxes to smooth out hit detection and to add a layer of complexity to combat. Things like tail swipes, being able to run underneath and around a dragon's legs, dodging stomps/charges. It also helps that it runs on the source engine so physics and collision detection comes into play as well.

    Here's what I mean:


    This is an example of the hit boxes on an attack vs some regular gnolls in a test room where you can see the full range of hit detection on an attack during its smash on one of the newest weapons released in the game.



    This:
    [video=youtube;nzDRiohYHhM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzDRiohYhM[/vido]

    Wings, horns, tail, spines (front legs) can be broken off (for crafting).
    Too bad the characters walk funny, look like mobile rainbows, make girly noises and wear their huge weapons like they're fallen limbs.

  15. #15
    I think that, by reading this thread, I've had my life long share of the term "boxes and turrets".

    Anyways, the whole thing sounds like trying to sound smart and critical for the sake of it. What's wrong with hitboxes now? Any game in any genre is routines and nodes doing stuff and someone putting graphics over it so it actually looks like something.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    Too bad the characters walk funny, look like mobile rainbows, make girly noises and wear their huge weapons like they're fallen limbs.
    Way to go off topic to bash a game because you don't like the aesthetics.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    I think that, by reading this thread, I've had my life long share of the term "boxes and turrets".

    Anyways, the whole thing sounds like trying to sound smart and critical for the sake of it. What's wrong with hitboxes now? Any game in any genre is routines and nodes doing stuff and someone putting graphics over it so it actually looks like something.
    Indeed. I can't help but feel OP is oversimplifying the issue by breaking games down to their absolute bare bones. There is only so much you can do and present it as a game.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Natova's Avatar
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    I am sorry but is it not always like this? no matter how far you get in technology?

    In one way or another you will always have a turret hit a box, even if a creature is made out of multiple boxes, or has a different shape.
    At least i think it will always be like that, either that or my imagination is not as strong (wich is a realy big suprice).
    -=Free will is an illusion=-

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Goosie View Post
    Way to go off topic to bash a game because you don't like the aesthetics.
    It was an honest review, didn't knew they changed the dictionary meaning.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    It was a subjective review that I threw in for no reason.
    Fixed. You don't bring anything valuable to the table here with your personal opinion on aesthetics when the discussion is about mechanics.

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