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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    If their "ideas" are a direct nerf into my viability I have every right to disagree with people. There is a big difference in merging MG/DS which are almost the same and flat out removing good spells or even promoting less actual casting. I may also get pissed when people don't really understand what button bloat is, so they wish to remove spells one never uses which is a crucial spell for one (enslave/banish in kanrethad scenario any1?)

    Truth be hold, I may sound obnoxious- but this kind of threads really hit the spot when I fear what future xpacs might bring, or better said, remove. If its a true that someone sometimes from the devs scrolls some forums then I fell threatened.
    It was nothing to do with viability.
    You dismissed the idea with no reasoning other than you managing perfectly fine.
    That is the sort of reasoning we quite rightly object to.

    I agree with the passive CoE, because really in PvP how viable is it to use ?
    I would say that every other curse is better than CoE in PvP.
    In PvE several classes bring the same effect in a much more convenient package.

    The last tier as passives shows how button bloat can be reduced, but without affecting viability.
    Even with the adjustments, the KJC change shows just how to do it right.
    Viability is not affected simply by something being a passive rather than on-demand.
    It has to be something more fundamental than that.

    On Kanathred.
    There are other ways to achieve a similar encounter without the need for the spell, but it was only designed around that because we actually had it.
    Too many spells or abilities are justified by as little as a single time they are used.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    On Kanathred.
    There are other ways to achieve a similar encounter without the need for the spell, but it was only designed around that because we actually had it.
    Too many spells or abilities are justified by as little as a single time they are used.

    I wish Blizz would take this kind of thing into account when designing encounters more often.

    "Hey let's give them a reason to use unending breath!"

  3. #43
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The warlock overhaul did make sure there's not a lot of button bloat for JUST THIS ONE CLASS. And yet even then there's still bloat what with the ridiculous amounts of defensive cds, multiple channel spells, and new talents.

    But other classes like warriors and hunters need to have abilities cut/merged A LOT more than warlocks.
    I almost feel like you could say, just as accurately: the Warlock overhaul removed a bunch of Warlock button bloat, then added a bunch of different button bloat.

    Button bloat is a secondary factor what I like to call Blizzard's "Infinite Warlock Loop". I imagine it looks a little like this...

    Code:
    function WarlockLoop(ClassPop,ClassMechanics);
    global Warlock;
    global ExpansionLength;
    global FotmRerolls;
    global AltADD;
    global NewPlayers;
    
    while ClassPop(Warlock) == min(ClassPop);
      fprintf(1,'%s','Hey, Warlocks are the least played class! What gives?');  
      if DevAttention(Warlock);
        fprintf(1,'%s','I have an awesome mechanics idea I\'d like to try! Let\'s overhaul Warlock mechanics to test it out!');
        ClassMechanics{Warlock} = Overhaul;
      else
        fprintf(1,'%s','We are too busy buffing Frost Mages, Discipline Priests, and Unholy DKs. Check back in a few more patches.');
        pause(rand*0.5*ExpansionLength);
      end
      ClassPop.Warlock = ClassPop.Warlock + rand*FotmRerolls + rand*AltADD + rand*NewPlayers; 
      pause rand*0.5*ExpansionLength;
      ClassRep = getClassRep(ClassPop);
      if ClassRep.HardMode(Warlock) > mean(ClassRep.HardMode)
        fprintf(1,'%s','Raid leaders are preferentially taking Warlocks over other classes. Their mechanics are too good and must be brought in line.');
        nerf(Warlock);
        ButtonBloat.Warlock = ButtonBloat.Warlock + round(10*rand) - round(10*rand);
      end
      ClassPop.Warlock = ClassPop.Warlock - rand*ClassPop.Warlock;
    end
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    No. RoF in Affli is crucial since it doesn't have any ground based aoe that doesn't require target. It's there in case for destealthing rogues/ferals, firing through smoke and sometimes encounters (Lei Shi).

    TW is something I could see being cut, it's not useful most of time in raid, mainly an extra self-shield in pvp.

    Both Summon: Infernal and Doomguard, I dislike long cooldown spells that does crap damage anyway. Or at the very least Infernal which they cannot properly balance, it doesn't seem to deal any damage apart from landing, which kinda defeats purpose imo.

    Enslave Demon. This expansion have total of zero demons to be enslaved. DKs for some reason got Control Undead but there is no undeads either, except for Scholo heroic where you can get one of skeleton guards... which doesn't work when you go to Challenge mode... so what's the point?
    I would cry tears of blood if infernal was removed. I rolled my lock back in Vanilla because a lock buddy of mine getting the summon infernal tome (long before it was simply given to you, before it was even a level 60 quest, it was in fact learned from an item that had a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery small chance to drop in blackrock spire) and then heading up to Brill and summoning the infernal and just letting it run rampant in the town (because back then when it was summoned you had to either enslave it asap or let it run wild, if you let it run wild it would do so until it was killed). My lock wouldn't exist without summon infernal =/ That being said, I think the real issue is trying to make a "single target dps cooldown demon" and a "aoe dps cooldown demon". If the cooldowns are super long and the demon is up for a long time, then one is going to be great for nearly all situations and one is going to be less than great. What should be done is have the demons be on 2-3 minute cooldowns with 10-15 second durations. To be completely honest, the most "warlock'y" warlock spec at the moment for me is demonology specifically because of the wild imps. Having demons being integral to gameplay should be something to be aimed for with warlocks. People can choose to sac their pet for a person boost if they don't like to have to manage a pet, but bringing demons out to the front to bring about chaos and destruction should be a theme that is more heavily emphasized with the warlock class imo.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  5. #45
    I cut off dark intent, so when I need to rebuff during combat, I have to spellbook it >.>

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by wkrueger View Post
    GC has been stating for quite a while the intent on reducing the number of abilities for every class. On the other hand, it risks unpleasing many players by removing abilities they used to like.



    SO, if you were to choose one or two Warlock spells to be removed, which ones would it be?

    There goes my shot!

    Soul Burn - Soul Swap: Dots should be strong (including dot-cleaving). To put all of them at once should not come at a light cost. Additionally, it cause affliction to have a few more rotational buttons than the other specs (not saying that's necessarily bad).

    Dark Regeneration : While it's a cool ability and easily macro'd with healthstone, it could just become a passive like the others in the same tier. Also, casuals probably take long until figuring out it can be macro'd.

    All tier 60 talents: Completely disposable or replaceable. Tier 60 is a fail. Not saying they are bad abilities, but they are strange for warlocks.

    Gateway: Overpowered and clunky

    Twilight Ward: Meh
    This thread is funny simple because, from reading GC's post on this matter, I have no choice but to laugh that he thinks one spell gets rid of the issue...or even helps much at all. Ability bloat is far beyond that.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    I feel like each spec still has a little bit of bloat or cleanup that would improve the product.

    Affliction:
    *CoEx (when glyph'd) puts its snare on enfeeblement
    *RoF gone from aff

    Destro:
    1) *F&B - each time RoF deals damage it triggers spellweaving (remember kalecgos buff in madness) thus making it a legit aoe but out of any single target and gets the ember generation elephant out of the room.

    Demo:
    *Corruption gone, shadowflame duration extended 3-6 sec, minor DF gain to filler nukes
    *Void Ray gone OR have it work like a chain lightning (needs a new name then lol)

    General:
    2) *CoE needs to be handled better IF it stays around as a debuff. Demo's auras are fine just need to last longer/no DF cost. Aff could probably put it up via dots, destro puts it up via any nuke. That would make each unique feeling while still doing a similar role.
    3) *Gateway - this is just too much of a hassle and balance nightmare! Remove it and tweak other stuff. Maybe our lvl 87 spell should be something like a 3 min CD to grant 2x shards, 500DF, 2x embers instead of gateway.
    *Enslave demon if we aren't getting to have new skins or whatnot for them.
    *MF in 5.4 - button bloat incarnate...like it as a passive better.
    1) That sounds interesting, IMO, and I would like to see that on the PTR sometime.
    2) Agreed, and I have said something similar elsewhere.
    3) IF they were to get rid of the Gateway, I would want it replaced with another mobility spell, rather than another DPS CD of sorts. (That being said, this doesn't really do anything to reduce button bloat either way.) :P
    Last edited by Supernex; 2013-08-17 at 05:20 AM.

    I will burn your soul.

  8. #48
    1. Merge malefic grasp and drain life into drain soul as drain soul has a better animation and fits the warlock persona better.

    2. Curse of the elements needs to be applied via abilities like hunters mark does for hunters.

    3. Unending breath,enslave demon, and eye of killrog "not sure on the spelling" are all perfect examples of rarely used and situational abilities that could easily be called "bloat".

    4. Demo has a few things that could be tweaked with "shadow bolt, soul fire weaving", made baseline "imp swarm, dark apotheosis", or removed/redesigned "void ray".

    5. Gateway and soulburn:soul swap need to go as they are overpowered...nuff said.

    There is my top 5
    Last edited by Lucidious; 2013-08-17 at 05:43 AM.

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    As I stated in another Ability Bloat thread, people REALLY need to consider what Ability Bloat is. A number of classes actually have LESS spells now then they did during Wrath.

    Imho, I believe that ability bloat is when either A) A spell serves a purpose already done BETTER by another spell (Seed of Corruption vs Rain of Fire), or B) A spell can be made passive with NO effects (Akin to how Rain of Fire becomes Hellfire then Immolation Aura for Demo).

    Rain of Fire for Affliction and Curse of Elements are really the only 2 abilties that can be considered bloat. Curse of Elements can be made baseline- All other specs that bring 8% spell damage do it passively. Just have Corruption/Immolate apply the effect. For Demo, Hellfire/Immolation Aura can apply the 8% spell damage debuff, to give it an AoE niche.

    For Affliction, I would suppose that Rain of Fires ONLY purpose is when you need to AoE things that are going to die fast enough that you CANT get a good seed-chain going. This can be fixed by causing Soul Burn-Seed to instant explode upon application.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  10. #50
    Each spec getting a way to passively apply its CoE seems a better design IF they keep the debuff. Aff having it on dots, demo as an aura (lower cost/longer duration), and destro nukes gives each spec identity but not making it something they had to do. I was thinking about enfeeblement as a passive ability when anyone strikes the lock they put up the enfeeblement debuff on them. Remember the OLD felhunter tainted blood?

    Aff "needing" RoF is pretty niche. Certainly niche enough to just run a different spec on a fight that would somehow need it. PVP you don't see even tourney level players use it much. 9/10+ times the stealth will get an opener on aff in practice.

    The 5.4 MF is a textbook example of button bloat.

  11. #51
    Mechagnome lupii's Avatar
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    I will never complain about MoP rotation or buttons being too high of a number. They have already taken my ability to see the damned dead in UC =/

    Plus...managing 13-15 different things in Cata was punishment. >>
    ---TransAwesome---
    A rainbow a day keeps the gloomies away.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The 5.4 MF is a textbook example of button bloat.
    Yes indeed it is a perfect example, another great example is curse of tongues and curse of weakness that got merged to enfeeble. I still think MG and DS could be merged with little consequence, things like DI being instant or even COE being applied with spells would be a quality of life change and not remove signature abilities from the spec.

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! muto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Sanders View Post
    Curse of the Elements reallllly needs to go. They should just change Corruption/Immolate to passively add the +5% magic damage when they're active.
    Would definitely agree with that.

    I would also rework the glyph curse of exhaustion, so it's applied by maelific grasp instead, similar to how arcane blast applies slow when glyphed.

    I would also remove enslave demon, since it rarely gets used, and twilight ward as well since it absorbs for so little.

    I would remove rain of fire from affliction, and fel flame & drain life from destruction,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I think Warlock actions bars are actually not too bloated (I even have a couple empty slots).

    If I had to get rid of anything, I think it would be the Curses. Just make those passively applied when you cast your DoTs.

    I guess anyone asking for Enslave Demon to be removed didn't complete the green fire questline. And possibly isn't considering the likelihood of the next expansion being Burning Legion focused.
    They knew the ability was so rarely used, and wanted you to use it at least once this expansion.

  14. #54
    basically, remove all spells and put in an "I WIN" button with your dps go up the more you smash it.

    joking aside, from my perspective they could easily remove the following spells: create healthstone, health funnel, fear, curse of enfeeblement(or just merge all our curses into 1), eye of kil'rogg, unending breath, banish(assuming it wont be needed in another xpac or could just be changed so it works on all creatures), twilight ward, summon infernal(could easily merge this spell with summon doomguard, so it summons both a doom guard and an infernal, coz as is, they are both kinda meh, infernal is crap and doom guard is cast capped so it doesnt scale at all, ofc thats assuming blizz doesnt get their act together and fix doomguard).

    also, ive seen a few ppl saying that demonic gateway and soul burn:soulswap is overpowered, i cant see why and how gateway is overpowered as i barely use it in pve, i use it on 2-3 encounters tops and even then it isnt mandatory, i honestly dont get why some ppl say gateway is OP. and soulburn:soul swap is hardly OP either, it simply removes the insane rampup time afflic use to have and it was a much needed change to say the least, and unless afflic dots gets removed entirely from the gcd i cant see a reason to remove SB:SS at all, atleast with SB:SS in we have something to use our shards on.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-08-17 at 12:11 PM.

  15. #55
    I can't believe were actually complaining about the tedium of putting up CoE. Have we come to this?

    With the new CD to our Gateway, it is no where near overpowered.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    It was nothing to do with viability.
    I agree with the passive CoE, because really in PvP how viable is it to use ?
    I would say that every other curse is better than CoE in PvP.
    In PvE several classes bring the same effect in a much more convenient package.
    Still not making a valid reason to remove it...
    In PvP it's a choice between dps and utility which is a valid choice in itself for pvp play
    In PvE it's a once every 5 mins cast, and can be forgotten if certain other class/specs are brought along.

    The bloat removal has already happened for this since CoShadows and CoElements were merged.

    At the end of the day, warlocks are far from bloated, the only points I've read I agree on so far are the ones pointing the annoyance on having spells that only work in Meta form that don't replace other non meta form spells (but macros can sort that one for now).

    The problem with baking a slow into affliction is where? Don't want MG to become another mind flay, so that leaves the 3 main dots (of which can have 100% uptime unlike conflag) or haunt .. and who really wants the slow to be tied to haunt as it costs a shard?

    Spells that add flavour (breath, enslave) etc can't be considered bloat, since they aren't part of the rotation, and if Blizz went down that path, we'd end up eventually with a dps, a portal and perhaps a defensive spell and nothing else....

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by spookyy View Post
    Is this thread even serious? How can you honestly be complaining about minor spells, that you use once every now and then, or to buff your raid every 60min.
    How can you be serious? This thread is about reducing button bloat. If you were removing the button bloat of Dark Intent you would just make it a passive aura like ele shamans.

    Is that really that bad?

  18. #58
    Passive auras vs castable buff for DI means the whole raid loses the buff whenever the warlock dies or goes out of range. The range issue can be annoying on certain boss fights (Sha of fear platforms, ji-kun nests).

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    basically, remove all spells and put in an "I WIN" button with your dps go up the more you smash it.

    joking aside, from my perspective they could easily remove the following spells: create healthstone, health funnel, fear, curse of enfeeblement(or just merge all our curses into 1), eye of kil'rogg, unending breath, banish(assuming it wont be needed in another xpac or could just be changed so it works on all creatures), twilight ward, summon infernal(could easily merge this spell with summon doomguard, so it summons both a doom guard and an infernal, coz as is, they are both kinda meh, infernal is crap and doom guard is cast capped so it doesnt scale at all, ofc thats assuming blizz doesnt get their act together and fix doomguard).

    also, ive seen a few ppl saying that demonic gateway and soul burn:soulswap is overpowered, i cant see why and how gateway is overpowered as i barely use it in pve, i use it on 2-3 encounters tops and even then it isnt mandatory, i honestly dont get why some ppl say gateway is OP. and soulburn:soul swap is hardly OP either, it simply removes the insane rampup time afflic use to have and it was a much needed change to say the least, and unless afflic dots gets removed entirely from the gcd i cant see a reason to remove SB:SS at all, atleast with SB:SS in we have something to use our shards on.
    Obviously doesn't PvP, lol...

    I will flay your mind.

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord Thelxi's Avatar
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    Other classes like hunters are seriously bloated with skills that have to use rotationally. Warlocks after the rework feel smooth and sleek enough. Only demo could maybe do with a little bit of trimming.

    I don't really mind pure utility spells like banish, command demon, eye etc. It's ok for them to just exist.

    Fel flame could be a destruction only spell, removing it from aff and demo.. but Blizzard is trying out other stuff with it and I don't really mind it.

    PvP is another story of course, but really almost all classes and specs need a ton of keybinds to be competitive in PvP.

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