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  1. #121
    People assuming that pet Move To is scarcely used, lol. In that case, you definitely shouldn't play a pet class.
    Everything on Chaozu's list is "needed" apart from Soulwell, Ritual of Summoning and Golin Glider to a certain extent (yes it's useful in many cases but it is somewhat a "vanity" item, just like most engi items that World PvPers use).
    Button bloat in MoP for locks is caused by the clunky Talent System that has abilities with somewhat different uses as well as the overkill defensive CDs we got.
    Destruction cataclysm arena video

  2. #122
    What button bloat?

    In all seriousness I think they've done a great job of cutting out the redundant stuff.. even if it does mean Destruction can no longer cast a shadow Bolt

    I think the only change I would like to see is have CoE auto applied. They merged several curses to remove the bloat, but oddly along the road of cross linking which classes bring what buffs... we seemed to be left as the only ones that need to actively cast our debuff, where as the classes that got it added have it as a passive. (forgive me if thats not 100% accurate)

  3. #123
    An obstacle that I could see with baking CoE into our other spells would mean a direct buff to our offensive pressure, (primarily just for PvP), as then we would effectively have BOTH CoE and Enfeeblement on a target, whereas currently we are only allowed to have one or the other. Not really a big deal, IMO, as it could be easily balanceable, but I hadn't seen mention of it yet so I though I'd throw it out there.

    I will burn your soul.

  4. #124
    - Curse of the Elements and Curse of Enfeeblement.
    - Create Healthstone is useless, just let Create Soulwell automatically give a Healthstone to the Warlock.
    - Bake the effects of DS into MG.
    - Fel Flame. It's a nice ability for oneshotting low level shit and it has its uses in raiding but if I had to chose one of the damage abilities it would be this one. Make Corruption instantly apply a portion of it's damage and we have an instant low level oneshotter again. RoF and Conflagrate do the trick for Destruction.
    - Drain Life. It's an iconic ability but never used. Instead, reintroduce Harvest Life again in the first talent tier.

    Can't think of anything else other than fun spells like Enslave Demon, Unending Breath and Eye of Kilrogg, but they are most likely not on your actions bars anyway.
    Last edited by Thorakh; 2013-08-21 at 10:52 AM.

  5. #125
    What I like to see gone are skills that add artificial deepness, like 60 minute clickable buffs. Those are aged concepts in my opinion, from an era where fansites would program 'setup planners' for all your buff needs (this feeling of overcoming an obstacle as a team, overcoming what the game throws at you with your partners. I guess most people still know this feeling from when they started playing MMOs).
    What I wouldn't like to see gone are situational spells like Underwater Breathing + glyph or maybe soul shatter, curse of enfeeblement. You know, spells that you can just ignore if they don't fit your playstyle. I don't pve a lot, so when I go through my spell book when doing my UI and keybinds I just skip soul shatter. No harm done, your resident dragon slayer might love it. Same for CoEnfeeblement, for me it offers a valuable and fun tool in pvp, raiders might not even have it on their bars.

    BE GONE:
    Curse of Elements: Cut the debuff-category completely or bake it into some spam-spell (to satisfy players that like artificial complexity)
    Dark Intent: Turn all those buffs into auras (you keep the benefits and 'epic feel' when playing in a group, minus the hassle. Negative example: Shadow in battlegrounds (Stam, Inner Fire, Fear Ward, Mount, Shadowform each time you res), positive example: Shaman auras). This one is huge for me.
    Summon Soulstone: Doesn't serve a purpose. Cast SS on living target = SS, cast on corpse = battle res
    Summon Health Stone: I like what's been suggested before in this thread. Upon summoning Soulwell you get a HS in your inventory automatically (maybe add a minor glyph to not place the portal at all if you dont like placing the soulwell or something along those lines)
    Minion skills: We could probably use a second 'Command Demon' to clean up the players' UIs (and/or a general overhaul of the pet bar)
    Soul Shatter: Not even on my UI (not a hardcore raider though, ymmv)
    Drain Soul into Malefic Grasp: edited out

    Mixed feelings:
    Drain Life: I don't like the playstyle it promotes, but I can see why you'd like it
    Infernal/Doomguard: I could see it turned into one spell. Not horribly complex to see what each one is for


    From the classes that I played throughout the years warlock is the only one with actual button bloat. Between pet skills (+focus binds), bland buffs&debuffs and summoning half your stuff before using it feels overwhelming and clunky (and that is coming from someone who is cool with 70+ binds on his resto shaman in pvp)
    Last edited by Erzengel; 2013-08-21 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #126
    Infernal/Doomguard: I could see it turned into one spell. Not horribly complex to see what each one is for
    I'd like both spells being kept and actually buffed into a major dps cd. They feel so lacklustre right now, especially the Infernal. They're such cool spells but they do absolutely nothing.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Erzengel View Post
    ...
    BE GONE:
    ...
    Dark Intent: Turn all those buffs into auras (you keep the benefits and 'epic feel' when playing in a group, minus the hassle. Negative example: Shadow in battlegrounds (Stam, Inner Fire, Fear Ward, Mount, Shadowform each time you res), positive example: Shaman auras). This one is huge for me.
    ...
    Buffs on the player are a TON better than an aura, unless that aura has an unlimited range. There's way too many fights that take place in huge rooms that split the raid up for limited-range-auras to be a good thing.

    I guess it may not be as huge a deal in 25 as you have multiple people carrying the auras (typically), but in 10s it's already decently difficult to get every buff/debuff in the raid. Turning everything into an aura means that 10s would have to deal with only having a portion of the buffs when split up for mechanics.

  8. #128
    What about the negatives of auras? Outranging them or the aura provider dies.

    I don't think we have a summon Soul Stone separate from the use Soul Stone anymore. Do we?

    I don't see how choosing which curse to use is artificial complexity. They are useful and not really all that complex (artificial or otherwise). Using CoEn makes it much easier to interrupt casters. CoEx makes kiting adds easier. Then we have to decide would we rather hinder the enemies efforts in these ways or is the damage boost of CoEl better.

    Just adding the application of curses to spam spells seems lazy. We debuff things. It's one of the things we do. People make it seem like a punishment that we can do these things.

    For the minion skills an extra Command Demon button might be fine, or else people will learn how to make all in one pet macros. Learning how to make macros is a valuable skill.

    Saying that there is no depth between Drain Soul and MF? I get that they are both channels but they are different spells. It's like saying there is no difference between Chaosbolt and Shadowburn. I don't want one button that senses the situation and automatically changes depending on my need.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyamorous View Post
    This is so absurdly wrong I can't even grasp it. You don't think that warlocks wouldn't lose any flavor or fun from just removing pets? You people want to remove things for the sake of removing them, not because they are actually an issue.
    Notice the "if I must" at the start of my post. I don't mind the number of buttons we have atm.
    If it wasn't a dps loss in alot of situations, I would run with grimoire of sacrifice as a permanent solution. I play to win, not to enjoy the pixels of the enslaved minion at my side and pets have often had an unfortunate impact on my gameplay. If I could cut that risk, I would.
    I want to remove things that I want to remove, for the sake of removing them, so that they are no longer there to negatively affect my gameplay. Pets' AI is somewhat of an issue, not sure how you could ever disagree with that.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    What about the negatives of auras? Outranging them or the aura provider dies.

    I don't think we have a summon Soul Stone separate from the use Soul Stone anymore. Do we?

    I don't see how choosing which curse to use is artificial complexity. They are useful and not really all that complex (artificial or otherwise). Using CoEn makes it much easier to interrupt casters. CoEx makes kiting adds easier. Then we have to decide would we rather hinder the enemies efforts in these ways or is the damage boost of CoEl better.

    Just adding the application of curses to spam spells seems lazy. We debuff things. It's one of the things we do. People make it seem like a punishment that we can do these things.

    For the minion skills an extra Command Demon button might be fine, or else people will learn how to make all in one pet macros. Learning how to make macros is a valuable skill.

    Saying that there is no depth between Drain Soul and MF? I get that they are both channels but they are different spells. It's like saying there is no difference between Chaosbolt and Shadowburn. I don't want one button that senses the situation and automatically changes depending on my need.
    Auras: I see the concern with auras, maybe a whole new concept like an aura that automatically applies and refreshes 60 min buffs on individual players would be good. Maybe it's just me though who is overly annoyed with the 60 minute buff system.

    SS: I haven't played in a while. Just checked to see what is going on in the game/forums. If it's already changed, all the better.

    Curses: I love the utility curses (!), i just think elements is not fun. It would feel better with the damage baked into the chars, or CotE automatically applied. In my opinion. If I switched through curses Elements was rarely one of them, 5% feels too little to matter given the opportunity cost. And for the scenario of defaulting Elements: what different would it be to autoapply it or not have the spell at all.

    Drain Soul vs MF: You are actually right, my bad. I haven't played in a while. Shards vs DMG and stuff make it a decision. You are right on this one and I agree.

    Minions: I use my own macros anyway. If you want to put different minions' spells on the same button, plus a modifier:x version, you have to use macros anyway. That doesn't mean 2 Command Demon skills wouldn't tidy up the bars, one is just so in-between.

    /edited for readability

  11. #131
    I hope all Buffs and Debuffs follow Hunter's mark and Trueshot Aura example and either apply automatically if you cast a Spell or are just passively given.

    Example: All Raid Members have Dark Intent Buff all the time while Warlocks are present, and all Opponents that get damage from Warlock get the Curse of Elements debuff.

    And I believe some Abilities could be consolidated to have different Behaviors based on the Situation, like for Example Summon Demon could HealthFunnel the Demon if a Demon is already summoned. Or the new Baseline Howl of Terror could be merged with Fear to an instant AoE-Fear like Howl of Terror if the target is in Howl-of-Terror Range, and channel normal Fear if the Target is further away.


    Also my personal Opinion is that having Unending Resolve as well as LV45 Talents adds more to the bloat than need be, maybe LV45 Talents could have the Player chose among the following:
    #1 Adds an additional Active Ability and leaves UR as it is if a Player likes many Buttons
    #2 Replaces UR with a stronger active Ability
    #3 Removes UR and adds a passive Ability for minimum Button Bloat.

    Last thing I would do to reduce Button Bloat is make Blood Horror passive, i.e. adding charges on its own without the player having to press another button.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    And I believe some Abilities could be consolidated to have different Behaviors based on the Situation, like for Example Summon Demon could HealthFunnel the Demon if a Demon is already summoned. Or the new Baseline Howl of Terror could be merged with Fear to an instant AoE-Fear like Howl of Terror if the target is in Howl-of-Terror Range, and channel normal Fear if the Target is further away.
    Please no :<
    'Intelligent' spells, or buttons where you are not in control it is not 100% intuitive which aspect of the button 'happens', are rarely a good thing in my book. Soul Stone one worked out. But the abovementioned would make resummoning a new demon behind a pillar while your first one gets eaten alive impossible.

  13. #133
    With all this talk of bloat, I would like to point out soulswap is a bloated ability.

    I want three different spells. Soulburn Soulswap, Soulswap Inhale, and Soulswap Exhale.

    I could spam 'soulburn soulswap' button and not end up wasting shards as buffs, unlike being forced to macro or two button cast.
    I can inhale off target A, and then decide target B is better and inhale again.
    I can exhale any time I have soulswap buff.

    /QoL.

  14. #134
    Keyboard Turner
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    As a warlock since the start of BC im surprised that many of you dont seem to want to be rid of the utterly uselss Eye of Kilrogg, only time i have used it was for green fire quest and apart from that i have never used it! Kudo's on CoE spam, annoying opener to a rotation!

  15. #135
    I think it's sort of odd that Howl of Terror is now baseline for all locks. Feels a little bloaty to have it in the first place. It should just be combined with Fear. AOE fear with nothing targeted and single target fear with a mob targeted.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenzii View Post
    I think it's sort of odd that Howl of Terror is now baseline for all locks. Feels a little bloaty to have it in the first place. It should just be combined with Fear. AOE fear with nothing targeted and single target fear with a mob targeted.
    No thanks

  17. #137
    I don't want anything to go, affliction and demo feel alright, destro is lacking a button if anything once ROF is removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorgon View Post
    As a warlock since the start of BC im surprised that many of you dont seem to want to be rid of the utterly uselss Eye of Kilrogg, only time i have used it was for green fire quest and apart from that i have never used it! Kudo's on CoE spam, annoying opener to a rotation!
    It's ability to place portals more than earns it's place.

  18. #138
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    After watching cata pvp videos by cobrak, adouken and drakedog I am currently depressed at how blizzard actually did a button genocide to destruction. I cant belive how these guys managed to pull awesome stuff with such a "complicated" and up spec back then by performing gazillions of tricks. Guess it really takes to cut spells by half to get more popular, eh...

    Not saying they should bring ISF rotation back, but when intellignet and precise use of utility overcomes pure (and gimmick) firepower you do get a deep (and joy to watch) gameplay as far as pvp goes.
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-08-22 at 07:41 PM.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    An obstacle that I could see with baking CoE into our other spells would mean a direct buff to our offensive pressure, (primarily just for PvP), as then we would effectively have BOTH CoE and Enfeeblement on a target, whereas currently we are only allowed to have one or the other. Not really a big deal, IMO, as it could be easily balanceable, but I hadn't seen mention of it yet so I though I'd throw it out there.
    Easy fixed by having Enfemblement remove COE, and not being able for the COE autoapply while Enfemblement is up
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by thelm View Post
    CoE. Bake it into our spells.
    This a hundred times over. What a waste of button, and what a shit button it is. We used to have a wide range of curses, which was supposed to be a core part of the class in design terms - those have all been cut, I really don't see why we can't cut the rest.

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