Redirect 5.4

[Warstar]

I like the way rogue combo points work right now. Managing your combo points is just part of the class and in my opinion making CPs personal takes away from the little decision making you have as a rogue.

There is no cp management as a rogue...

There's buff management where you make sure envenom is up as much as possible or rupture. Of for combat there's also paying attention to SnD. But there's really no "cp management" at all and it really just boils down to "I have 5+ cp I'm going to use a finisher". As it stands right now the hardest thing to manage about it is being able to count from 1-5. Every guide out there. Everyone who has ever asked for help and gotten answers the answer that has always been given is "always use finishers at 5 cp" because of anticipation.

Now there's definitely energy management especially as assassination where you pool energy. Less for combat since it's more of a spam fest. But outside of that for assassination the general rule is to always use a finisher at 5 cp (aside from putting up the initial SnD) and the same is for combat with the exception of always use a 5 cp finisher or always refresh SnD with whatever cp you have to make sure it doesn't fall off.

But aside from the fact that your post makes 0 sense how does cp management even effect cp on target or on the player? It's not like a situation where there's 2 targets up so you can build cp up on both targets and stuff like that. All it does is limits what you can do on target swaps, makes for a loss of dps, and is generally just a poorly designed mechanic. Now, if you could build up cp on multiple targets at once that'd be a far more interesting mechanic and something that would take a lot of management.

As far as it "ruining the class" as the above poster stated.... no. I'm pretty sure he hasn't given any examples as to how it could potentially ruin the class because there aren't. Maybe someone could have made that argument from vanilla to wrath but ever since cata came out and a lot of "cp" based specs have been popping up where all of their resources are on them instead of on the target makes that statement invalid. It's been "tested" and shown that it works totally fine by all the other classes who work like that now and seeing as how none of those classes that have their "cp" on them instead of on the target have "ruined their class" it's safe to say that your statement is 100% false and that you gave no thought what so ever into making it.

[Karnige]

Blizzard needs to get their heads out of their nether regions & just PUT THE DAMNED COMBO POINTS ON THE ROGUE…!!!

/gnerdrage /sigh /wrists

I agree, they should just fucking do it. it would make things so much simpler

[Linneth]

Getting 5 Combo Points and pooling energy would've been good managing on magmaw when the head was going to go down; it wasn't possible because combo points weren't on the Rogue and Redirect just didn't work at all. The same can be said about any mechanic an add that needs to be bursted down asap.

Just because Combo Points could be on the Rogue doesn't mean swapping becomes YOLO mode.

[Boil]

See, sometimes you are killing stuff left & right; and when you go to use Redirect, the combo points have already disappeared…

Or you are in the middle of a boss fight, spamming 2 like a fiend, and an add pops up headed straight for the healer; this is a direct DPS lose on the boss as you have to take the time to Redirect whatever CPs you have from the boss to the mob, and then back again…

Face facts folks…! Making the change of combo points stacking on the mob to stacking on the Rogue would be one of, if not THE, greatest quality of life change for Rogues in a good long while…!!!

Heck, if I could get combo points stacking on my Rogue, I would even stop whining about Combat Rogue Tanking…!!! Well, at least for half an expansion or so…! ;^p

But that lack of a Replica version of the Blackened Defias Armor (chest piece), that will never be off of the QQ list…!

Seriously Blizz, how frakking hard would it be to place a Replica Blackened Defias Armor chest piece into the Darkmoon Fair lineup…?!? Some of us LIKE that old armor set & NEED to finish our tmog, dammit…!!!

- - - Updated - - -

There is no cp management as a rogue...

There's buff management where you make sure envenom is up as much as possible or rupture. Of for combat there's also paying attention to SnD. But there's really no "cp management" at all and it really just boils down to "I have 5+ cp I'm going to use a finisher". As it stands right now the hardest thing to manage about it is being able to count from 1-5. Every guide out there. Everyone who has ever asked for help and gotten answers the answer that has always been given is "always use finishers at 5 cp" because of anticipation.

Now there's definitely energy management especially as assassination where you pool energy. Less for combat since it's more of a spam fest. But outside of that for assassination the general rule is to always use a finisher at 5 cp (aside from putting up the initial SnD) and the same is for combat with the exception of always use a 5 cp finisher or always refresh SnD with whatever cp you have to make sure it doesn't fall off.

But aside from the fact that your post makes 0 sense how does cp management even effect cp on target or on the player? It's not like a situation where there's 2 targets up so you can build cp up on both targets and stuff like that. All it does is limits what you can do on target swaps, makes for a loss of dps, and is generally just a poorly designed mechanic. Now, if you could build up cp on multiple targets at once that'd be a far more interesting mechanic and something that would take a lot of management.

As far as it "ruining the class" as the above poster stated.... no. I'm pretty sure he hasn't given any examples as to how it could potentially ruin the class because there aren't. Maybe someone could have made that argument from vanilla to wrath but ever since cata came out and a lot of "cp" based specs have been popping up where all of their resources are on them instead of on the target makes that statement invalid. It's been "tested" and shown that it works totally fine by all the other classes who work like that now and seeing as how none of those classes that have their "cp" on them instead of on the target have "ruined their class" it's safe to say that your statement is 100% false and that you gave no thought what so ever into making it.

^^^ THIS ^^^

TIMES A ZILLION ZILLION…!!!

(…AGAIN…)

Combo points SHOULD be on the Rogue, NOT the mob…!!!

[Orangetai420]

Blizzard needs to get their heads out of their nether regions & just PUT THE DAMNED COMBO POINTS ON THE ROGUE…!!!

/gnerdrage /sigh /wrists

no thanks. play a ret if that's what you want. I'm tired of all this homogenization and watering down of unique aspects of a class.

- - - Updated - - -

This, I'm fine with a 10 seconds cooldown but having to spend a major glyph slot on it? It should be baseline, is it really gonna take them another expansion to realise that?

I agree with this

[Koji2k11]

no thanks. play a ret if that's what you want. I'm tired of all this homogenization and watering down of unique aspects of a class.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with this

what unique aspect ? stealth ? nope stealth has been handed to so many classes i cant even count them anymore hmmm lets see ... energy ? hmmm nope ferals,hunters & monks have that too hmmmmmmmmm OH I KNOW we are the only class wearing daggers ...... oh right we are the only class wearing agi daggers ...... then i think the only thing that makes us unique is mass stealth and smoke bomb thats all i can think of unless they give those 2 skills to other clases

[Kaustos]

Before asking for using potions while stealthed I would ask why prepotting is allowed at all. I mean, potions were changed to be a one-use consumable in-combat so there wouldn't be a need to spam mana potions on CD like before. Prepotting bypasses the one-per-combat mechanic, basically "gaming" the system. It doesn't seem like something Blizzard thought of at the time and it would be easily solved by making them usable only while in combat. They could even separate health potions from dps potions and make Healing potions a weaker version of Warlock's Healthstone (nerfing their utility at the same time).

I really thought this would be the first thing to go after their complaint about opener dps. Removing prepotting would probably satisfy their wanting to chill pulls without having to pile even more stipulations and clauses onto the rppm mechanic.

[Stryk]

The people who complain about CPs "disappearing" or "losing" CPs aren't managing their CPs correctly. In single target fights, there isn't any CP management but it gets a little more complicated on multi-dot fights where you aim to keep rupture/DP on all targets without wasting CPs.

I'm not really here to argue with anyone but rather to show that there are some players who prefer/don't mind the way rogues are currently from a hardcore raiding perspective.

[Dropndestroyrr]

The people who complain about CPs "disappearing" or "losing" CPs aren't managing their CPs correctly. In single target fights, there isn't any CP management but it gets a little more complicated on multi-dot fights where you aim to keep rupture/DP on all targets without wasting CPs.

I'm not really here to argue with anyone but rather to show that there are some players who prefer/don't mind the way rogues are currently from a hardcore raiding perspective.

This is probably the best way to sum up my feelings on CPs.

[Deleted]

I like the way rogue combo points work right now. Managing your combo points is just part of the class and in my opinion making CPs personal takes away from the little decision making you have as a rogue.

The people who complain about CPs "disappearing" or "losing" CPs aren't managing their CPs correctly. In single target fights, there isn't any CP management but it gets a little more complicated on multi-dot fights where you aim to keep rupture/DP on all targets without wasting CPs.

I'm not really here to argue with anyone but rather to show that there are some players who prefer/don't mind the way rogues are currently from a hardcore raiding perspective.

This basically.

And besides, how am I supposed to start boss fights with 5 CP if they become player-based? :|

[Koji2k11]

This basically.

And besides, how am I supposed to start boss fights with 5 CP if they become player-based? :|

MFD

so how are dissapering CP on meagera heads my fault ?

[Sesshou]

We're going from 60 seconds to 10 seconds. Be grateful for that. Not all classes need to be the same, we aren't druids. CPs that attach to mobs makes us unique. Do we really want all classes to be carbon copies of each other? I know I don't.

See, I could be far more sympathetic to this argument if they didn't take a QoL change we have been begging for since Vanilla and slap it on 2 different classes since then. Do I want to be a carbon copy of ret/monks? No. I've been in favor of on rogue cp since before they had holy power though. It was a good idea before holy power and it is a good idea now.

[Verain]

I was looking forward to a 0 CD redirect. The 10 is still pretty much a mandory glyph. Remember that as combat, this is pretty solid:

Tab/Redirect+Autoattack -> Revealing -> (SS x n) -> Eviscerate

You will of course be able to redirect again immediately, as restless blades works with redirect.


I posted more in the other thread about combo points and won't repeat myself but:

See, I could be far more sympathetic to this argument if they didn't take a QoL change we have been begging for since Vanilla and slap it on 2 different classes since then. Do I want to be a carbon copy of ret/monks? No. I've been in favor of on rogue cp since before they had holy power though. It was a good idea before holy power and it is a good idea now.

This, mostly. First, CPs on the rogue is not a "QoL" change. It's a huge buff. But second, it really has been spam requested since before the game launched. That every other class they have added since vanilla has gotten combo points, in addition to any other melee spec that gets popular, but in ALL CASES the combo points are "on the character" instead of "on the target", I have less sympathy.

Runic Power? On the death knight.
Holy Power? On the paladin. Was he copying the DK?
Chi? On the monk. Who was he copying?

So when we ask for that, we didn't play an alt and get this idea all of a sudden. It was a rogue idea that EVERYONE ELSE GOT.


That being said- I'm not generally in favor of combo points on the rogue without limits. I think consideration is given to us for this liability- I think we'd hit less hard if we didn't have this.


But at least ONE SPEC shouldn't have this limitation.


Here's my bigger post on it:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post22115442

[Stryk]

MFD

so how are dissapering CP on meagera heads my fault ?

You have to understand that Megaera is a unique fight in which the heads don't actually "die" and most times disappear faster than the new head appears which ends up screwing your redirect. At the same time, I don't believe you are refunded energy either through the use of rupture. The rogue combo point system is definitely not ideal on that one particular fight, I agree but that is only 1 of 13 fights.

[Linneth]

You have to understand that Megaera is a unique fight in which the heads don't actually "die" and most times disappear faster than the new head appears which ends up screwing your redirect. At the same time, I don't believe you are refunded energy either through the use of rupture. The rogue combo point system is definitely not ideal on that one particular fight, I agree but that is only 1 of 13 fights.

As was Magmaw, as was (up to some extent, could be avoid by "skillful" play) Madness of Deathwing... Fact of matter is that similar situations are bound to happen, and I don't see Blizzard delivering a fix that would avoid this buggy behaviour. The mob goes "puf", so do the Combos tied to it.

As you said on another post, most of the time any CP lost is mostly the Rogue's fault because it can be avoided. I would say most people posting here knows and acknowledges this, it isn't that hard to do. However, both FoK and Anticipation have some very buggy interactions with each other.

It's also not that uncommon that you need to swap targets without having Redirect, losing Combo Points that were Anticipation charges no matter what you do. Perhaps this case in particular could be solved if Anticipation didn't give its amount of Combo Points after a offensive finisher but instead filled any "missing" point if you use less than 5 combo points.

[Verain]

You have to understand that Megaera is a unique fight in which the heads don't actually "die" and most times disappear faster than the new head appears which ends up screwing your redirect.

And marked for death. And rupture. And it's by no means unique- many things use this cute fucking mechanic. Did your bird turn into a different bird? Ok, we hid your combo points in another universe, so sorry bro. I guess troll council is "unique" in the exact same way (unique means "one of a kind", so...), where a troll doesn't "actually die"? Except they do. You just get fucked because... I dunno, but you do. Turtle shells? Well, good things we don't make rogues get on them. They don't "actually die" either. I'm pretty sure it works on Primordius slimes, but I don't recall it working on Dark Animus adds. So like, half the fights in the current tier, and almost every fight with adds, have this fun little "unique" mechanic, where combo points, marked for death, rupture, and/or redirect don't fucking work like they should, because the devs hide shit in other dimensions as part of building raids.

At the same time, I don't believe you are refunded energy either through the use of rupture. The rogue combo point system is definitely not ideal on that one particular fight, I agree but that is only 1 of 13 fights.

It's quite a few, and this is by NO means an unusual tier in this regard.

[Drench]

I liked the original... Redirect always up would be fun to see. Except when I'm on the receiving end.

[Sesshou]

But aside from the fact that your post makes 0 sense how does cp management even effect cp on target or on the player? It's not like a situation where there's 2 targets up so you can build cp up on both targets and stuff like that.

Actually thats an interesting point. Why shouldn't we be able to build up cp on multiple targets? Seems like that is a nice little bonus to make up for the big negative of combo points on target

[Koji2k11]

Actually thats an interesting point. Why shouldn't we be able to build up cp on multiple targets? Seems like that is a nice little bonus to make up for the big negative of combo points on target

inb4 op arena yadda yadda talk

[Deleted]

MFD

lol sure