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  1. #181
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    As for DoC, I'm stumped. I've poured over WrathCalcs to find an inadequacy with how it's being modelled or some random interaction it's having to reduce its damage, but I can't find one. Literally sat here for 5-6 hours today with no results. All I can see is it's moving damage from nukes to SS procs due to increased cycle length, but that's it. Puzzling at the least.
    Could that mean its losing value due to SS proc wastage?

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Souxlya View Post
    Could that mean its losing value due to SS proc wastage?
    SS wastage in 5.4, HAHA. Don't worry, Ghostcrawler fixed that for us.

  3. #183
    Good afternoon Slippy!

    I'd like to start by taking the time to thank you and the others over at EJ for putting in the time to help us not-so-math-and-excel-spreadsheet-savvy-doomchickens get our stuff together.

    Before viewing your BIS list, I went though and created my own while keeping stat priorities in mind. Granted, I didn't use Wrathcalcs when determining my BiS list. There are a few differences that I have compared to yours and so I'm wondering if you can clarify on a few pieces.

    Firstly, I chose http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105425 for my bracers as they have spirit/crit on them whereas you chose ones with haste. I believe the ones I chose to be the better option because crit is valued higher than haste when at the breakpoint.

    Secondly, I chose http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105500 for my belt for the same reason as the bracers though the option you chose has spirit/mastery. I know that mastery becomes nearly equal valued as crit in 5.4 but crit is still better.

    Lastly, I'm a little lost on the weapons at the moment because wowhead is showing that the ilvl for a given weapon that drops from Garrosh that is Heroic (Non-warforged) is 2 ilvls higher than items that are Heroic Warforged. One can then assume that Garrosh will drop higher ilvl items than any of the other bosses which means whichever options Garrosh has would be the BiS since Spellpower increases substantially per ilvl. Therefore, I'm torn between http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105690, a crit/mastery Staff OR http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105688 Spirit/Mastery Mace & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105689 Crit/Haste OH.
    Last edited by Shinagami091; 2013-08-31 at 07:49 PM.

  4. #184
    There is one problem with the Hellscream Weapons: They can't be upgraded. Since upgrading is apparently going to be available right from the start, that is a significant downside.

  5. #185
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    SS wastage in 5.4, HAHA. Don't worry, Ghostcrawler fixed that for us.
    Ha Ha fixed...

    It could still be messing with DoC in Wrathcalcs for multi targets.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    There is one problem with the Hellscream Weapons: They can't be upgraded. Since upgrading is apparently going to be available right from the start, that is a significant downside.
    Oh dear, you're right. I forgot about the whole Garrosh dropping BoA items thing. And dont they drop like how LFR loot drops? Like, personal loot?

  7. #187
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    SS wastage in 5.4, HAHA. Don't worry, Ghostcrawler fixed that for us.
    While I know you're a very sarcastic man Cybb, we all have to remember that single-target SS procs wont be changed at all, so we'll still see around 20% waste for single-target. Adding more targets does increase SS procs still, albeit at a much slower rate, and so more targets will convey higher SS proc waste but nothing like the 50% wastage we saw on fights like Council. SS proc waste might go up to 25%-30% at the most - this is something we'll need to look at through logs in the near future. Waste will still exist, just less of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinagami091 View Post
    Good afternoon Slippy!

    I'd like to start by taking the time to thank you and the others over at EJ for putting in the time to help us not-so-math-and-excel-spreadsheet-savvy-doomchickens get our stuff together.

    Before viewing your BIS list, I went though and created my own while keeping stat priorities in mind. Granted, I didn't use Wrathcalcs when determining my BiS list. There are a few differences that I have compared to yours and so I'm wondering if you can clarify on a few pieces.

    Firstly, I chose http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105425 for my bracers as they have spirit/crit on them whereas you chose ones with haste. I believe the ones I chose to be the better option because crit is valued higher than haste when at the breakpoint.

    Secondly, I chose http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105500 for my belt for the same reason as the bracers though the option you chose has spirit/mastery. I know that mastery becomes nearly equal valued as crit in 5.4 but crit is still better.

    Lastly, I'm a little lost on the weapons at the moment because wowhead is showing that the ilvl for a given weapon that drops from Garrosh that is Heroic (Non-warforged) is 2 ilvls higher than items that are Heroic Warforged. One can then assume that Garrosh will drop higher ilvl items than any of the other bosses which means whichever options Garrosh has would be the BiS since Spellpower increases substantially per ilvl. Therefore, I'm torn between http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105690, a crit/mastery Staff OR http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105688 Spirit/Mastery Mace & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105689 Crit/Haste OH.
    Hiya Shinigami!

    I'd first like to draw your attention to the item comparison list I made to compare slot options: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22223448. You can see here that the two bracers in question (in fact all three bracers) are pretty much exactly equal, so you could use one or the other just fine. Furthermore, note that pieces with spr/haste are just as wanted as things with spr/crit or crit/haste - this is because of the spirit and haste caps. These caps need to be sourced from somewhere, and will often draw from crit (and sometimes mastery) to reach those points. Thus, when evaluating BiS pieces you often allow spirit and haste pieces to be just as wanted as others. This does have a caveat though: once all your gear is filled with crit and it's not possible to gain anymore, spirit would then be equivalent to mastery.

    You can also see on the list that there's a significant difference between the two belt options. In order to explain this fully, I'll do a stat comparison of the two options with gems and reforges in mind. Since I already hit the haste breakpoint easily without the belt option having any haste, the only reforge that should be possible is spr -> crit for Karmic and spr -> mastery for Dragonmaw.

    Stat: Karmic | Dragonmaw
    Int: 2027 | 2027
    Crit: 952 | 1371
    Haste: 0 | 0
    Mastery: 1284 | 544
    Spirit: 707 | 976

    This eventually boils down to Karmic = 740 mastery vs. 419 crit + 269 spirit = Dragonmaw. If we compare the two pieces on a "most secondaries" level, then Karmic automatically wins. However, let's go by what I said before and say it's not possible to turn the spirit into crit, and the only option is spirit into mastery. That would end up with 471 mastery vs. 419 crit. Additionally, since the per point value of crit goes up with the Amp trinket but mastery doesn't, we also need to factor in the 9% bonus to mastery rating. This ends up becoming 513 mastery vs. 419 crit. Finally, we take the WrathCalcs numbers for DPS per point - 6.48 for crit and 6.08 for mastery - and we get our DPS change of 3119 DPS vs. 2715 DPS, or a difference of 404 DPS in Karmic's favour. So while it's important to max crit, it shouldn't come at a huge expense of other secondary stats.

    You might notice the DPS difference is not the same as in my item comparison list: I prefaced that in the post funny enough. What we've done here is taken a DPS per point value and said "hopefully this will apply" with more crit and less mastery. In actual fact the stats dynamically jump around when you change them, and thus when you've done the change you might notice crit is worth less and mastery is worth slightly more. When I did the item comparison list, that change is accounted for because I'm using WrathCalcs directly to compare pieces.

    Overall, the two belts are comparable, but Karmic should be the better option. It also has less spirit overall, which could make Dragonmaw have reforge/gemming problems.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-09-01 at 06:40 AM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    From the (very limited) look at normal gear, it's the same pieces just a few gem and reforge changes. I didn't pour over it though.
    Ok, Thanks

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinagami091 View Post
    Oh dear, you're right. I forgot about the whole Garrosh dropping BoA items thing. And dont they drop like how LFR loot drops? Like, personal loot?
    Yeah they said it's LFR-style and the first weapon you will ever get will be spec appropriate.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Yeah they said it's LFR-style and the first weapon you will ever get will be spec appropriate.
    Do we know specific, though? I.e. if you kill Garrosh on Flex and get a spec appropriate item, and then kill him on normal - will it carry over or be specific to the difficulty mode. Also, if you get the off-hand on your first kill, will the mace/staff be just as random as getting a two-handed axe or something?
    "Such insolence... such arrogance... must be PUNISHED!"

  11. #191
    Isnt it Heroic only? Like a reward to players who down him on HC mode

  12. #192
    They drop in Flex, Normal and Heroic.
    "Such insolence... such arrogance... must be PUNISHED!"

  13. #193
    Then i suppose it will be first kill on each difficulty will drop the spec appropriate one.

    Edited this and rephrased it:
    On a side note, slippy have you tried testing on ptr with the talents and gear setups?
    Whilst its not as accurate as wrathcalcs, i am abit uneasy trusting the values i am getting from wrathcalcs atm, since on ptr its not working out the same. Also correct me if i am wrong, but like someone said earlier wrathcalcs cant model some types of fights very well, and also i cant see how it can model SotF to a good level, which must cause issues when modelling it alongside DoC. This is due to it being a proc you hold onto in alot of situations and wait for the correct moment to use. I did a test for extended aoe / multi target cleave and DoC came out on top with a stonger mastery build, this was for 3 and 4 targets.

    Sotf gives really good dps but can have some really dry periods especially when we arent using the globals to hardcast much. Leading me to believe that maybe Soft benefits more from crit and ss procs. Really cany say if its worth using, it seems to work well with DoC if you get the procs whilst throwing out the starsurges, but i had too many long periods of no procs to really see it that viable.

    I am definitely getting FoN + either hotw / DoC for strongest single target. And Inc + DoC gives the strongest burst and aoe, like for example that boss cant remember his name atm which has warrior stances, DoC + Inc on the start i am bursting huge dps with all the adds stacked.


    Also to point out in my testing with DoC + Sotf on 4 targets my wrath and starfire did so little dps, multistrike procs did almost as much as starfire and way more than wrath. Dots were top 2 doing about 26% each with starsurge around 20% - I also screwed up the DoC buff a few times. But on the plus side with DoC our aoe is much more viable which makes the talent really attractive, your still restricted by NG however the damage from storm and hurricane is really nice.
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-09-01 at 09:17 PM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    I know you're a very sarcastic man Cybb
    Not sure if I should be offended or charmed that you wanted to get too know me. =)

  15. #195
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    Not sure if I should be offended or charmed that you wanted to get too know me. =)
    Charmed, of course! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Then i suppose it will be first kill on each difficulty will drop the spec appropriate one.

    Edited this and rephrased it:
    On a side note, slippy have you tried testing on ptr with the talents and gear setups?
    Whilst its not as accurate as wrathcalcs, i am abit uneasy trusting the values i am getting from wrathcalcs atm, since on ptr its not working out the same. Also correct me if i am wrong, but like someone said earlier wrathcalcs cant model some types of fights very well, and also i cant see how it can model SotF to a good level, which must cause issues when modelling it alongside DoC. This is due to it being a proc you hold onto in alot of situations and wait for the correct moment to use. I did a test for extended aoe / multi target cleave and DoC came out on top with a stonger mastery build, this was for 3 and 4 targets.

    Sotf gives really good dps but can have some really dry periods especially when we arent using the globals to hardcast much. Leading me to believe that maybe Soft benefits more from crit and ss procs. Really cany say if its worth using, it seems to work well with DoC if you get the procs whilst throwing out the starsurges, but i had too many long periods of no procs to really see it that viable.

    I am definitely getting FoN + either hotw / DoC for strongest single target. And Inc + DoC gives the strongest burst and aoe, like for example that boss cant remember his name atm which has warrior stances, DoC + Inc on the start i am bursting huge dps with all the adds stacked.


    Also to point out in my testing with DoC + Sotf on 4 targets my wrath and starfire did so little dps, multistrike procs did almost as much as starfire and way more than wrath. Dots were top 2 doing about 26% each with starsurge around 20% - I also screwed up the DoC buff a few times. But on the plus side with DoC our aoe is much more viable which makes the talent really attractive, your still restricted by NG however the damage from storm and hurricane is really nice.
    I haven't done any personal testing on the PTR mostly due to time restrictions. I'm not too certain on DoC's DPS in WrathCalcs, but SotF should be pretty straightforward. Since it's a base 8% chance to proc on Starfire/Wrath/Starsurge there shouldn't be *much* discrepancy between procs per cycle and how many Starsurges you get. In fact, the more Starsurges you get the less SotF procs you'd expect because Starsurge generates more energy than Wrath. Regardless, WrathCalcs is pretty accurate with SotF because it's relatively easy to model - a chance to proc at any point in the cycle, which means it removes non-eclipse damage in trade for non-eclipse time. Because the buff cannot stack more than once, the optimal usage should be at any post-eclipse phase, not just post-Solar to prevent overwrites.

    If you have an 8% chance per nuke to proc SotF, the chance of getting at least 1 proc per cycle (let's say 8 casts per Lunar/post-Lunar and 10 casts per Solar/post-Solar) is (1-0.92^18) = 77.7%. That means SotF is a relatively RNG talent, and you'd expect a good deal of variance in procs. It also means you have a 22.3% chance of getting no procs in a cycle, which is what you described above. Remember, the average amount of procs you should see per cycle is 0.777. You wont get a proc every cycle. Most cycles you will, but there's a good chance you wont on any given cycle. So since these numbers are fairly easy to deduce Hamlet's modelled them pretty well in WrathCalcs by means of weighted averages.

    Also note that RNG tends to even out over time. Just because you get dry periods of trinket or talent procs doesn't mean the talent/trinket as a whole is complete crap. The average procs you expect per unit time (ie. RPPM) is an average and should be treated as such. You don't expect to get the average every time, and that number already includes high periods of variance where you don't get a proc for a while or you get multiple procs back-to-back. So while I understand it's frustrating to sit there not getting a SotF proc for what feels like forever (trust me, I lived with UVLS), it's not a very strong argument against a talent.

    I'm not exactly sure why DoC was showing to be stronger for you with mastery. Since stats are dynamic, and increasing one stat makes the others increase more than it per point, DoC should cause mastery to drop in value. This is because DoC could be directly converted into flat mastery rating, and thus crit should surge ahead (even haste should but not nearly enough). I find it hard to believe DoC would be favouring mastery at all, as its major drawback (increasing cycle length) doesn't improve with more mastery, but does with crit and haste.

    Anyway, I'm still waiting for SimCraft to update for 5.4, then we'll have another model to compare to what we're seeing in WrathCalcs and in-game (albeit not with a lot of data).

  16. #196
    I was having fun running sotf/doc on the PTR. My character transfers are messed up and don't show so I have to settle with premades now, so my gear level for testing isn't up to par, but I think it's going to be a really fun deviant to the normal rotation. In addition, it may prove more beneficial to spec into both during high multidot bosses. Of course, the numbers will need to pull through, but 25% eclipse buff is massive and sotf should increase the weight of said buff, given we should have higher eclipse uptime.

    The big drawback to sotf is the fact that it can proc successively, which is a major loss. I think it would be nice to see it stack to 2, but the dreams of a mad chicken rarely come to fruition. And while ~77% of the time we will statistically have a proc, including proc wasting should lower that number to what would happen in practice, no?

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    I did a test for extended aoe / multi target cleave and DoC came out on top with a stonger mastery build, this was for 3 and 4 targets
    Just out of curiousity, were you using SoTF or incarnation in your 'test'? perhaps you thought to try out using both of these talents and comparing them to a full crit or crit / mastery build to truly identify that DoC is the talent responsible for the supposed mastery bulild pulling ahead. By this I mean that SoTF should increase the value of mastery because as we are,in theory, spending more time in eclipse as opposed to the incarnation talent.

    You should also keep in mind that this is a very small data set and the variance in your results can be quite dramatic from one attempt to the next swaying the results somewhat.

  18. #198
    Love this thread

    I'm not on the PTR but I read that all the current trinkets are getting nerfed, is the trinket list set up on the PTR with the short proc times and lower values?
    Originally Posted by Zarhym (Blue Tracker)

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  19. #199
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomkinhero View Post
    The big drawback to sotf is the fact that it can proc successively, which is a major loss. I think it would be nice to see it stack to 2, but the dreams of a mad chicken rarely come to fruition. And while ~77% of the time we will statistically have a proc, including proc wasting should lower that number to what would happen in practice, no?
    Correct, SotF proc waste would be exactly how we see SS proc waste, so the emphasis is to use your SotF at the next possible post-eclipse phase. Obviously there's still a chance to get a proc waste, but it's much lower than if you were saving your SotF proc just for post-Solar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foto View Post
    Love this thread

    I'm not on the PTR but I read that all the current trinkets are getting nerfed, is the trinket list set up on the PTR with the short proc times and lower values?
    Trinket comparison list was done with the 5.3 trinket nerfs accounted for.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by craigp100 View Post
    Just out of curiousity, were you using SoTF or incarnation in your 'test'? perhaps you thought to try out using both of these talents and comparing them to a full crit or crit / mastery build to truly identify that DoC is the talent responsible for the supposed mastery bulild pulling ahead. By this I mean that SoTF should increase the value of mastery because as we are,in theory, spending more time in eclipse as opposed to the incarnation talent.

    You should also keep in mind that this is a very small data set and the variance in your results can be quite dramatic from one attempt to the next swaying the results somewhat.
    Yeah i tested sotf with DoC first with crit and then with mastery, mastery pulled higher dps, remember this was a 4 target situation.
    I then tested inc with DoC, crit pulled out ontop, but i can only presume this is due to less time in eclipse. However overall the Sotf DoC gave the highest numbers.

    I would also add these were approx 10 min tests each, i will redo them tonight maybe and see if i made errors.
    I would also point out that the SS procs didnt feel much different with 4 targets between they crit and mastery build, hence why i think mastery pulled ahead, the number of Starsurges i used was pretty similar, slightly greater on the crit build.
    This was all done in T15 gear with T16 tier 4 set, and only self buffed. Which could make a big difference also.

    Lastly i know this is one small test, and it accounts for pretty much nothing, the point of my post was to ask if anyone else was trying this on ptr also, because honestly i dont trust the current WC numbers tbh.

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