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  1. #341
    After having looted Heroic WF Purified Bindings of Immerseus, AMR suggests me to reforge mastery rather than crit (eg, instead of spirit -> crit, it says spirit -> mastery...instead of mastery -> crit, it asks to remove that reforge)
    WC spits out higher dps favoring crit, but is AMR wrong assuming mastery is better than crit because you gain 9% more from the reforge if you choose mastery rather than crit, thanks to the trinket?

  2. #342
    As I've written in the post above yours, every single SoO encounter requires movement, making Critical Strike worth more than it is on paper.

    Default AMR values are not very accurate and should be ignored.
    Last edited by Mutheru; 2013-11-14 at 10:57 AM.
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  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutheru View Post
    Wrath Calcs will show Mastery being worth more than Critical Strike for some gear set-ups (or at least Mastery being very slightly behind). Therefore mathematical calculations would prefer Mastery gear and tell us to stack that stat. Now that's obviously not correct because every single SoO encounter requires movement, increasing the actual value of Critical Strike because of extra SS procs which are the only viable DPS option when moving.
    Except that when you are getting up to the gear levels where you are getting into the extremely high (~17k) levels of crit, which you only reach when nearing BiS, extra crit is going to start to be wasted and Mastery is going to be better at that level. This is a BiS list, in that it is only truly correct once you have every piece of gear in this list, it isn't just listing every single item/gem/reforge and saying that is the absolute best because if you do not have every piece of gear in this list, then you shouldn't be following it.

    Your mention of DoC is also somewhat irrelevant, I don't know why the BiS list is calculated using Inc + DoC it doesn't change the stat values in any way, in fact math has also been done which shows that Mastery loses value with DoC selected, you seem to think it is the other way though.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-11-14 at 12:20 PM.

  4. #344
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    @Mutheru
    You do know that regardless of SS procs that are in fact RNG, the more crit you have the less it's worth? Same goes for haste but that one is more obvious as it works more with breakpoints. Mastery on the other hand with current gear level is pure dps gain regardless of how much you have already. And what I mean by gear level is that with current haste and crit we go thru Eclipses pretty often and ideally our DoTs are always Eclipsed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    After having looted Heroic WF Purified Bindings of Immerseus, AMR suggests me to reforge mastery rather than crit (eg, instead of spirit -> crit, it says spirit -> mastery...instead of mastery -> crit, it asks to remove that reforge)
    WC spits out higher dps favoring crit, but is AMR wrong assuming mastery is better than crit because you gain 9% more from the reforge if you choose mastery rather than crit, thanks to the trinket?
    Put WC stat weights into AMR and check again. AMR by default has static weights while in reality they are not static and change based on our current gear. AMR is a good tool for fast gemming and reforging but to make it accurate you should update its stats weights from time to time so they are more exact.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2013-11-14 at 02:42 PM.

  5. #345
    Using WC stats, AMR suggests me to reforge out of 5k crit into mastery.. this is with crit being weighted higher (albeit slightly) than mastery. With respect to raw stats, going mastery is a less increase (actually calculated loss/gain with weights I input) - so I've edged away from AMR.. esp because a higher mastery build doesn't do justice to treant or doc talents.
    Last edited by boomkinhero; 2013-11-14 at 03:45 PM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    @Mutheru
    You do know that regardless of SS procs that are in fact RNG, the more crit you have the less it's worth? Same goes for haste but that one is more obvious as it works more with breakpoints. Mastery on the other hand with current gear level is pure dps gain regardless of how much you have already. And what I mean by gear level is that with current haste and crit we go thru Eclipses pretty often and ideally our DoTs are always Eclipsed.
    False. Mastery also reduces in value the more you have of it. Say you have 0% bonus eclipse dmg and go to 50%, it would be a 50% dmg increase, where as if you go from 50% to 100% (same increase in mastery) it would only be a 33% dmg increase. Haste actually gains value this tier (assuming you where already sitting at the haste breakpoint in ToT) since all other stats increase (Yes it is still below mastery/crit). Furthermore haste is actually better than most believe since whenever you do have to move (a thing that WC doesn't take into account) and as a result lose NG, haste is the best stat. Also I don't believe any boomkins are in doubt that SS procs is RNG, that doesn't mean you can't increase your chances by getting more crit. Which is why it beats mastery during movement.

  7. #347
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    False. Mastery also reduces in value the more you have of it. Say you have 0% bonus eclipse dmg and go to 50%, it would be a 50% dmg increase, where as if you go from 50% to 100% (same increase in mastery) it would only be a 33% dmg increase. Haste actually gains value this tier (assuming you where already sitting at the haste breakpoint in ToT) since all other stats increase (Yes it is still below mastery/crit). Furthermore haste is actually better than most believe since whenever you do have to move (a thing that WC doesn't take into account) and as a result lose NG, haste is the best stat. Also I don't believe any boomkins are in doubt that SS procs is RNG, that doesn't mean you can't increase your chances by getting more crit. Which is why it beats mastery during movement.
    Let's start from the fact that in SoO gear all secondary stats are pretty close to each other. You need to understand that flat dmg increase is still slighly better than RNG. Even if RNG potentially increases your dps during movement, unless it's 100% it still can just not proc in "those moments". Anyway, this discussion is so theoretical, the differences we are talking about won't even be visible much in game :P

    @boomkinhero, you must have done something wrong. AMR works perfectly for me with WC stats. I did have it make me once reforge crit to mastery but that was due to some mistake I've done in the settings.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2013-11-14 at 07:55 PM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by boomkinhero View Post
    Using WC stats, AMR suggests me to reforge out of 5k crit into mastery.. this is with crit being weighted higher (albeit slightly) than mastery. With respect to raw stats, going mastery is a less increase (actually calculated loss/gain with weights I input) - so I've edged away from AMR.. esp because a higher mastery build doesn't do justice to treant or doc talents.
    You've lost me. If you're setting Crit > Mastery in AMR then it should be reforging Crit > Mastery, you're clearly doing something wrong. The last sentense I don't get at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    Let's start from the fact that in SoO gear all secondary stats are pretty close to each other. You need to understand that flat dmg increase is still slighly better than RNG. Even if RNG potentially increases your dps during movement, unless it's 100% it still can just not proc in "those moments". Anyway, this discussion is so theoretical, the differences we are talking about won't even be visible much in game :P
    Exactly, Crit is important to get those SS procs but once you get into the really high regions of crit your starting to weigh up a negligible chance at a few more (likely wasted) procs or a straight up 8-10% Eclipse bonus. THe choice seems pretty easy if you ask me.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    You've lost me. If you're setting Crit > Mastery in AMR then it should be reforging Crit > Mastery, you're clearly doing something wrong. The last sentense I don't get at all.
    I know right? Except that's what it does. I am doing nothing wrong. Crit weight is 5.88 and Mastery is 5.69. If I set Mastery to 5.60 then it won't reforge into mastery. So clearly it's me?... no, you're wrong.

    Mastery doesn't affect treants and reduces effectiveness of doc.

  10. #350
    Whilw this thread is somewhat active, does anyone have a download link for the latest Wrathcalcs. I cannot seem to find it for the life of me, looking through the last few pages on the EJ thread as well as the main EJ guide, can't seem to find it anywhere.

  11. #351
    WrathCalcs 130909.xls is still the latest version. It's on the last page of the WrathCalcs thread here:

    http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index...lcs/?p=2270042

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Exactly, Crit is important to get those SS procs but once you get into the really high regions of crit your starting to weigh up a negligible chance at a few more (likely wasted) procs or a straight up 8-10% Eclipse bonus. THe choice seems pretty easy if you ask me.
    It's really not that simple. Crit does not only increase SS proc chance, it also increase NG uptime, extend dots you don't want to be overwriting while moving, and it actually does something when you're not in an eclipse. Oh and I almost forgot, a crit does more damage than a normal hit.

    Now I don't have any math to prove this, but if you go back to the earlier pages of this thread you will see some other boomkins (including slippy) discussing maxing out crit even though WC shows that you want to have some kind of balance between mastery and crit. The BiS list reflects that.

    Quote Originally Posted by boomkinhero View Post
    Using WC stats, AMR suggests me to reforge out of 5k crit into mastery.. this is with crit being weighted higher (albeit slightly) than mastery. With respect to raw stats, going mastery is a less increase (actually calculated loss/gain with weights I input) - so I've edged away from AMR.. esp because a higher mastery build doesn't do justice to treant or doc talents.
    I've seen the same on other classes without the amplification trinket when 2 stat weights are close, not sure why AMR does that. I just have up when it didn't work (wasn't my own char anyway) but if you go to their forums you can probably find the answer as to why it does that.

  13. #353
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    It's really not that simple. Crit does not only increase SS proc chance, it also increase NG uptime, extend dots you don't want to be overwriting while moving, and it actually does something when you're not in an eclipse. Oh and I almost forgot, a crit does more damage than a normal hit.

    Now I don't have any math to prove this, but if you go back to the earlier pages of this thread you will see some other boomkins (including slippy) discussing maxing out crit even though WC shows that you want to have some kind of balance between mastery and crit. The BiS list reflects that.
    At SoO gear levels we often go thru Eclipses faster than our NG lasts. Also, there is the case of wasted SS procs. At this level all secondary stats have their pros and cons and that's why they are so close to each other. It's still better to aim at one that has slightly higher weight keeping all nesseccary breakpoints. But don't overvalue crit. It's good but it is losing on value.

  14. #354
    Instead of all these "theories" why don't you use a farm boss and 1 week use full crit and the next week use full mastery and see which gives you better numbers?

  15. #355
    Stood in the Fire
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    Critkin is the way to go, honestly cannot see how Mastery is ever gonna be better than crit in any situation. Even on a 100% stand still fight (Which doesnt exist in Siege of Orgrimmar). I did try both builds in 5.4 PTR and the low amounts of Starsurges you get especially after they nerfed our 4p is not worth it.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    I've seen the same on other classes without the amplification trinket when 2 stat weights are close, not sure why AMR does that. I just have up when it didn't work (wasn't my own char anyway) but if you go to their forums you can probably find the answer as to why it does that.
    Since Lilija PM'd me to look into my specific issue myself, I looked more into it.. It would rightfully seem so that WC is increasing it's given stat weight for mastery based on the AMP trinket. However, AMR is also doing this (it sees more raw stat weights when reforging out of crit and into mastery, thus weighting it even more). Mastery is this case is double dipping, being actually calculated by AMR to be worth more than it is on paper.

    So if anything, the issue is with WC in that fact that it's stat weights don't directly transfer over 1:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clukclukboom View Post
    Instead of all these "theories" why don't you use a farm boss and 1 week use full crit and the next week use full mastery and see which gives you better numbers?
    Because that would be an incorrect assertion. To create a statistically correct model, you would need far more than 1 test case. Spreadsheets/etc do this for us. It is up to the user to be more intelligent and understand a more practical meaning.. such as crit being worth more than it is on paper because it allows us to possibly cast while moving.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stabb View Post
    Critkin is the way to go, honestly cannot see how Mastery is ever gonna be better than crit in any situation. Even on a 100% stand still fight (Which doesnt exist in Siege of Orgrimmar). I did try both builds in 5.4 PTR and the low amounts of Starsurges you get especially after they nerfed our 4p is not worth it.
    Depends on the fight. Starsurge is not our highest DPET spell and rightfully so won't be the actual do-all say-all when making decisions.
    Example: Fallen Protectors
    Case: Multi-dot gallore. DoT's are our highest DPET and thus should be weighed more when casting. Starsurge proc while applying DoTs? Likely keep dotting. The only exception being if you don't have any procs or waiting 1 GCD wont affect output of the DoTs (say 3s left on NG but you need to cast 3 DoTs, DoTs get prioritized)
    Relation: When the event happens that DoT's get prioritized, mastery may gain more worth than crit because the value added to crit for giving us a SS proc is ignored and we have severe diminishing returns on crit's benefit to procs with more targets.
    Last edited by boomkinhero; 2013-11-15 at 02:59 PM.

  17. #357
    So heres my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../simple......I got Heroic staff of off Galakras last night cause no one else needed it....I dont think its better but..wanted everyones opinion. Imma go with Keep Garrosh/jug combo. Lmk what you guys think.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Happysocks View Post
    So heres my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../simple......I got Heroic staff of off Galakras last night cause no one else needed it....I dont think its better but..wanted everyones opinion. Imma go with Keep Garrosh/jug combo. Lmk what you guys think.
    Taking a quick look, I'd say that you should be able to reforge a fair portion of the SP no the Galakras staff away to a more desirable stat without being over hit cap (or over it by a large amount) and the spell power increase from the HC weapon should outweigh that of your WF normal mace.

  19. #359
    Thank you for your words of wisdom RD. Robot couldn't let go of using a two hand weapon as bis.

  20. #360
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agile52 View Post
    Thank you for your words of wisdom RD. Robot couldn't let go of using a two hand weapon as bis.
    Depends on what stat weights you put in it Mine points out MH+OH as best ^^

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