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  1. #21
    Goddamnit, I sold my Rainbow Generator.

  2. #22
    Yeah the Hellscream OH is no good without a socket, but Revelations of Y'Shaarj should be better:
    Stat Cricket Revalations Total
    Int 1364 1444 -80
    Secondary stats 2002 1915 87

    You have already taken the items with the highest total secondary stats for all the other slots, just missed the OH. Dunno if changing the offhand would cause reforge issues when trying to hit the same stat balance, but otherwise it should be better.

    Also for some reason http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/105521-ju...uts-power-core seems to be underbudget on secondary stats.

  3. #23
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Yeah the Hellscream OH is no good without a socket, but Revelations of Y'Shaarj should be better:
    Stat Cricket Revalations Total
    Int 1364 1444 -80
    Secondary stats 2002 1915 87

    You have already taken the items with the highest total secondary stats for all the other slots, just missed the OH. Dunno if changing the offhand would cause reforge issues when trying to hit the same stat balance, but otherwise it should be better.

    Also for some reason http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/105521-ju...uts-power-core seems to be underbudget on secondary stats.
    Great catch! I can swap out the off-hand for your one, switch some int/crit gems to exp/crit and it turns out to be ~600 DPS increase. I'll add that in momentarily!

    Edit: I also changed the reforge on the belt from Mastery -> Crit to Spirit -> Crit in order to change more int/crit gems into exp/crit. Resulted in an extra 100 DPS. Exp/crit gems should be more prevalent this tier.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-18 at 08:18 AM.

  4. #24
    Slippy what stat weights did you obtain when you created that set in wrathcalcs? And are we really going to be playing with lower crit than we currently have? I am on 18k atm, with 10296 haste bp, obv much less mastery, but it feels like the overall secondaries are reducing in the new tier? Obv there is much higher int but thats just through ilevel buffing since you havent gemmed int really.

    Seems a gain of 3k int and 3-4k secondaries, but is the value of mastery really going up that much? With less SS procs we will cycle eclipses slower in multi target situations which should reduce the value of mastery?
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-18 at 09:49 AM.

  5. #25
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Slippy what stat weights did you obtain when you created that set in wrathcalcs? And are we really going to be playing with lower crit than we currently have? I am on 18k atm, with 10296 haste bp, obv much less mastery, but it feels like the overall secondaries are reducing in the new tier? Obv there is much higher int but thats just through ilevel buffing since you havent gemmed int really.

    Seems a gain of 3k int and 3-4k secondaries, but is the value of mastery really going up that much? With less SS procs we will cycle eclipses slower in multi target situations which should reduce the value of mastery?
    Crit saw a drop because of a lesser chance for SS procs, which constitutes a good portion of its value per point. Mastery didn't really "go up", it's more that crit dropped down slightly. Crit was pretty close to mastery in T15 anyway, this just made it so that the two stats became pretty close to each other. SS proc waste is also being modelled much better (read: dynamic) with a recent change, so you see a diminishing returns effect now with SS proc waste.

    As to the amount of secondary stats, remember that trinkets alone in T15 gave around 1785 secondary stats each for their heroic 2/2 counterparts. That'd be a total of 1785 + 1785*40 (reforged from second trinket) = 2499 crit missing, raising the total to 17056. Now, let's also compare mastery levels between tiers: in T15H we had 3327 mastery BiS, and now we've got 9581 in this set, a difference of 6254. Let's assume you could reforge all that mastery into crit: our new total would be 23310 crit. If the second trinket without crit as the primary stat could somehow free up crit elsewhere with haste or hit caps, you'd be looking at an additional 1071 crit to the 23310 total, but that's not always possible.

    Therefore, our secondaries have indeed increased, but it looks lower because no trinkets are equipped and a good deal of our crit has been siphoned into mastery. This may change before the patch goes live, but mastery looks to be a competitive stat.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-18 at 10:21 AM.

  6. #26
    Hmm okay, last time i modeled the stats 2xmastery wasnt greater than 1 int, but i will recheck.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    It's clearly stated that the results were with 2/2 upgrades and tailoring + engineering as professions. It's not possible to link it like that.
    I was't talking about Slippy's list there, fap. That's why I quoted "Dumdidum's" post, which seemed to be without, plus I only asked him to clarify.

  8. #28
    Hellscreams warmace is 574ilvl and can't be upgraded(look at tooltip).
    All bop wf weapons are 572ilvl and can be upgraded to 580.

    So there are no reasons to use alto-weapons.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlkin View Post
    Hellscreams warmace is 574ilvl and can't be upgraded(look at tooltip).
    All bop wf weapons are 572ilvl and can be upgraded to 580.

    So there are no reasons to use alto-weapons.
    I dont think it will really be BoA?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Hmm okay, last time i modeled the stats 2xmastery wasnt greater than 1 int, but i will recheck.
    When I checked it, with my gear but T15 bonuses disabled and T16 enabled, I also saw Intellect being better than Mastery, with Mastery being slighlty ahead at times but after about 3000 Mast rating, Intellect would come ahead. So I thought that instead of playing catch with mastery, we would just gem Intel, since they are virtually the same and Mastery would be presumably losing value as we got it passively on gear.

    I didn't see any different results when I tried the crit=mastery+7.5k

    Edit: I'm guessing this is an overall gear issue, probably because I tested it in my gear and not T16 BiS like slippy, but I thought I should mention

  11. #31
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    When I checked it, with my gear but T15 bonuses disabled and T16 enabled, I also saw Intellect being better than Mastery, with Mastery being slighlty ahead at times but after about 3000 Mast rating, Intellect would come ahead. So I thought that instead of playing catch with mastery, we would just gem Intel, since they are virtually the same and Mastery would be presumably losing value as we got it passively on gear.

    I didn't see any different results when I tried the crit=mastery+7.5k

    Edit: I'm guessing this is an overall gear issue, probably because I tested it in my gear and not T16 BiS like slippy, but I thought I should mention
    We could be seeing a difference because of the int disparity between your T15 gear and the BiS T16H gear, as you said. More int would mean the other stats get favoured comparatively more, so it's understandable that with a higher ilvl the focus would shift back to secondaries. It's pretty clear with the current WrathCalcs and in T16H gear that 2x Secondary (~4.2) > 1x Int (~7.8).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Owlkin View Post
    Hellscreams warmace is 574ilvl and can't be upgraded(look at tooltip).
    All bop wf weapons are 572ilvl and can be upgraded to 580.

    So there are no reasons to use alto-weapons.
    That'll be interesting, but might just be a PTR bug for the moment - we haven't actually heard from Blizzard that they are not upgradeable. You can be certain if the Hellscream's weapons aren't upgradeable then the non-Hellscream's weapons will be much better, but for the time being I'll keep it as is. If we get word or patch day comes around and people find they can't upgrade them, then I'll change it.

  12. #32
    Can you explain your logic with mastery gaining value in T16 using FoN, when treants gain no benefit to mastery? Also would like to see why you think FoN is going too be a superior talent when the vast majority of fights give more benefit to Incarnation and therefore should base your BiS list around it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    Can you explain your logic with mastery gaining value in T16 using FoN, when treants gain no benefit to mastery? Also would like to see why you think FoN is going too be a superior talent when the vast majority of fights give more benefit to Incarnation and therefore should base your BiS list around it.
    Exactly this all fights bar 1-2 are multi target fights where you will always gain max benefit from incarnation, should really re-evaluate and do this with inc rather than a talent you will hardly ever use.

  14. #34
    Rainbow Generator. Abnosome.

    On another note thanks Slippy, your work is excellent as always.

  15. #35
    Usually BiS lists are made for single target dps since there's not much point making a BiS list for 14 different bosses.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Usually BiS lists are made for single target dps since there's not much point making a BiS list for 14 different bosses.
    Not really, all our last tiers were looking at best for multi target also, hence why we ignored haste bp for a while and went full on crit.

    Slippy does a great job, he will try to evaluate what is best for general use in the new tier i am sure.

  17. #37
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    Can you explain your logic with mastery gaining value in T16 using FoN, when treants gain no benefit to mastery? Also would like to see why you think FoN is going too be a superior talent when the vast majority of fights give more benefit to Incarnation and therefore should base your BiS list around it.
    Alright, first off I haven't stated mastery has gained value at all - in fact, I clarified to someone else that crit has lost value and the gap between mastery and crit is now interchangeable. This was observed with FoN selected, but then again FoN was just a relic from the old BiS list being brought over when everyone was excited for the single-target prospects. Hence, I adapted my list to suit the needs of most, and in actuality there was no difference in BiS gear between the two talents, just a DPS number.

    But this is why I do bring out BiS lists much earlier than on patch day - I love to hear the feedback from everyone (especially on fight mechanics and talent choices) because I wouldn't be able to do it myself. Even if I tried to do it myself, it wouldn't nearly be as accurate as it would with the input from a few hundred people.

    So if it's looking like most of the fights will be Incarnation-based, I'll absolutely centre discussion around Inc usage and update my list appropriately. It would've been handy for you to state your point yesterday (rather than saying "I'm done") while I was reworking it a few times, but I'm glad you've done it nonetheless.

    Also, WrathCalcs is showing SotF to be better than Inc for single-target, but I can't give a clear multi-target range for it without SimCraft being updated. Multi-target part of WrathCalcs is still a WIP and not exactly reliable, so for the moment we can go with the assumption Inc will trump the other two for 2+ targets, or at least equal the others.

    Edit: One thing I notice with Incarnation selected is that mastery is indeed worth more than it was with FoN (which is what we expected). However, at low levels of crit, the tipping point between crit and mastery occurred at crit = mastery + 4.7k. With high levels of crit, this gap shortened a lot. I'll post more on this when I get home.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-18 at 11:52 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Also, WrathCalcs is showing SotF to be better than Inc for single-target
    Can you go on the PTR and try too replicate that? I haven't been able to, nor have I seen anyone able to, especially since the nerf after the original change.

  19. #39
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybb View Post
    Can you go on the PTR and try too replicate that? I haven't been able to, nor have I seen anyone able to, especially since the nerf after the original change.
    From early theorycrafting, the change adding the cap of 100 energy generation shouldn't have really mattered - skipping an entire Solar/post-Solar net the same overall as skipping just post-Solar.

    Conversely, SotF's practical application has always been doubted, pre- and post-change. Like the old SotF, its main objective is to speed up your cycle times and improve damage by giving you a higher average amount of damage per cast. The talent itself doesn't convey additional damage inherently, unlike Incarnation. Therefore, it's more difficult to show the DPS increase of such a talent compared with a flat damage modifier on a cooldown.

    So I'm not advocating the talent directly, more so reporting its modelled damage relative to the other options. I make no claim for its representation on the PTR because I haven't gone on myself, but even testing it myself would be too small of a data set for an adequate analysis. If it's something multiple boomkins have reported, then there may be an inaccuracy with the way it's being modelled.

    Either way, my point in the previous post was that Inc will most likely be the comparative talent if most fights in SoO are multi-target, regardless of the state of SotF.

  20. #40
    I understand the BiS list currently has no trinkets -- but if the trinekt with 8% spirit ends up being BiS (which I suspect it will end up being) I think your list could undergo a drastic change since this gives us 8% additional hit rating from spirit. Also possibly making spirit gear worth more than hit gear.

    Thus, would you not want to add in trinkets to either verify/deny whether this trinket is BiS before continuing with small tweaks on the BiS list?

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