[Balance] T16H BiS List

[primalfears]

I understand the BiS list currently has no trinkets -- but if the trinekt with 8% spirit ends up being BiS (which I suspect it will end up being) I think your list could undergo a drastic change since this gives us 8% additional hit rating from spirit. Also possibly making spirit gear worth more than hit gear.

Thus, would you not want to add in trinkets to either verify/deny whether this trinket is BiS before continuing with small tweaks on the BiS list?

it will be 8% of your total spirit so if u have 5100 spirit u will have 5508 spirit

[huth]

a long tier list in the vendor would be completely manageable with the simple addition of a filter. Maybe a class filter and/or a difficulty filter.

Check your vendor interface. That filter has been in for a while now.

[Deleted]

I definitely agree with the reasoning to prioritise Crit over Mastery, if the difference on paper is slight, because of movement DPS.

Slippy (and the Wrath Calcs team) - thank you so much for all the work you have put into this. Given that for most people clearing heroic modes is going to take a while, I would also very much appreciate a normal BiS list, if it's going to be different from the heroic one.

[Fleuria]

I definitely agree with the reasoning to prioritise Crit over Mastery, if the difference on paper is slight, because of movement DPS.

Slippy (and the Wrath Calcs team) - thank you so much for all the work you have put into this. Given that for most people clearing heroic modes is going to take a while, I would also very much appreciate a normal BiS list, if it's going to be different from the heroic one.

In SoO, personally I found their wasn't really much movement and if their was their was enough adds to dot that you had enough starsurge procs to counteract the moving.

Personally I think you can possibly drop 3k mastery in favor of some more crit for multi target fights as you have Mastery buff to include as well but in general I don't think you should really treat mastery as the plague an extra like 15-30% on eclipsed dots on multi target fights is quite big given the fact more damage will actually come out of your eclipsed dots now than pre change, sure you can probably get a set with 20k+ crit rating haste cap and 3k mastery but It's probably not really worth it + this is end of tier gear on progress your still probably just grab most crit pieces anyway.

[Owlkin]

About multidot. In 5.4 we will cast both dots on main target then eclipsed dot on all other and after hardcast nukes (I will at least) to keep uptime of NG. So you will have alot more eclipsed dots and it will raise value of mastery in multidot scenario.

[Deleted]

About multidot. In 5.4 we will cast both dots on main target then eclipsed dot on all other and after hardcast nukes (I will at least) to keep uptime of NG. So you will have alot more eclipsed dots and it will raise value of mastery in multidot scenario.

I wont be doing that ^^ But go ahead and play that way

[Fleuria]

You shouldn't even need to change how you dot anyway, unless some one comes up with a mathematically better and possible way.

[Cybb]

You shouldn't even need to change how you dot anyway, unless some one comes up with a mathematically better and possible way.

Screw you I dot how I want :P

[Deleted]

I wont be doing that ^^ But go ahead and play that way

Why? If you cast both dots on more than 3 targets, your Nature's Grace is going to drop off resulting in a loss in DPS.

[Fountaiin]

I think he was referring to the "and cast eclipse dot on all other targets" part.

[Aboubacar]

You shouldn't even need to change how you dot anyway, unless some one comes up with a mathematically better and possible way.

You always dot stuff the same? I would for to say each time there can be different way, just ctach the sitauton and mf sf or otherwise mf mf mf in lunar say equal target to the other.

[Deleted]

I think he was referring to the "and cast eclipse dot on all other targets" part.

Yep. I dont have time to write about it now, but check the 5.4 changes and thoughts thread, somewhere in last 10 pages or so :P Also from playing ptr i dont find it to be successful to just spam eclipsed dot anymore. It all depends on the situation, i.e. how much hp the adds have, how quickly they need to die etc.


Also slippy i was looking at other off tier pieces, and do you not think we should take some more spirit embedded gear so that the amp trinket gives more boost, then you dont need to gem expertise and crit, since expertise doesnt get amplified. I havent run the maths yet but i doubt i will gem like that. You have 5 expertise crit gems at which is 800 expertise getting 0 amplification. We can even put spirit crit gems in place of a few pure crit ones if we need. Or take for example the helm tier and another offpiece with spirit and crit or something.

When int is 7.3 and crit and mastery are 4.2 for example.
80 int and 160 crit/mast gives around 1256 dps -> amplified by 8% gives -> 80 int and 172.8 crit/mast netting a dps of 1309.76
320 crit / mast gives 1344 -> amplified by 8% gives 345.6 crit/mast netting 1451.52 dps

I am not sure the value of expertise and crit but with no amplification then i cant see it being a great idea to gem it when we can easily put some crit in other places.

Or am i misunderstanding the trinket, does it not amplify gemmed and enchanted stats?

[Deleted]

Also slippy i was looking at other off tier pieces, and do you not think we should take some more spirit embedded gear so that the amp trinket gives more boost, then you dont need to gem expertise and crit, since expertise doesnt get amplified. I havent run the maths yet but i doubt i will gem like that. You have 5 expertise crit gems at which is 800 expertise getting 0 amplification. We can even put spirit crit gems in place of a few pure crit ones if we need. Or take for example the helm tier and another offpiece with spirit and crit or something.

When int is 7.3 and crit and mastery are 4.2 for example.
80 int and 160 crit/mast gives around 1256 dps -> amplified by 8% gives -> 80 int and 172.8 crit/mast netting a dps of 1309.76
320 crit / mast gives 1344 -> amplified by 8% gives 345.6 crit/mast netting 1451.52 dps

I am not sure the value of expertise and crit but with no amplification then i cant see it being a great idea to gem it when we can easily put some crit in other places.

Or am i misunderstanding the trinket, does it not amplify gemmed and enchanted stats?

You have to take into consideration that by removing the expertise, you'll have to get that hit from other stats. So those 800/1.08 = 740,7 points will be taken out either from mastery or crit. So in the end you gain 400 intellect and lose 740,7 secondaries. Using your example of 4.2 and 7.3 thats a net loss of 191 dps. The loss will get bigger the more 2x secondaries get ahead of 1 int.

[Slippykins]

Also slippy i was looking at other off tier pieces, and do you not think we should take some more spirit embedded gear so that the amp trinket gives more boost, then you dont need to gem expertise and crit, since expertise doesnt get amplified. I havent run the maths yet but i doubt i will gem like that. You have 5 expertise crit gems at which is 800 expertise getting 0 amplification. We can even put spirit crit gems in place of a few pure crit ones if we need. Or take for example the helm tier and another offpiece with spirit and crit or something.

When int is 7.3 and crit and mastery are 4.2 for example.
80 int and 160 crit/mast gives around 1256 dps -> amplified by 8% gives -> 80 int and 172.8 crit/mast netting a dps of 1309.76
320 crit / mast gives 1344 -> amplified by 8% gives 345.6 crit/mast netting 1451.52 dps

I am not sure the value of expertise and crit but with no amplification then i cant see it being a great idea to gem it when we can easily put some crit in other places.

Or am i misunderstanding the trinket, does it not amplify gemmed and enchanted stats?

I think you might have a point with getting gear that has amplified stats on it (spr/haste/mast) but since we're trying to get a lot of crit and crit is not an amplified stat, we'd end up losing that bonus, right? Instead of having 500*1.08 spr on a piece, after reforging you'd have 500*0.6*1.08 spr and 500*0.4 crit, which is less than 500*1.08.

The gemming should just be an opportunity cost between int and secondaries, nothing more. By using exp gems you put yourself over the hit cap, which allows you to reforge out of spirit on gear and hopefully boost your crit from that.

Anyway, the exp/crit gems netted me the most dps and crit for my own tests, if you'd like to look over it for me in WrathCalcs I'd appreciate it. I'm currently in Queensland so I'll read and respond to threads but I wont be able to do anything with the list until I get home.

edit: didn't see Hasp's post, but he's correct. The spirit will come out of somewhere and using the numbers you posted earlier equates to a loss of 9 crit per gem as a net total.

For the maths: "x" represents the amount of crit gained from your gems, so int = x/2. We also lose x/1.08 to spirit because we're not using the exp/crit gems, and we add 1.74*x/2 to convert the int into crit.

x-x/1.08+x/2*1.74 = 0.944*x. If we had used exp/crit gems instead, we would still have x crit left because we met the hit cap with the expertise alone. Therefore, the difference is 0.056*x crit in favour of the exp/crit gems, or 0.056*160 = 9 crit per gem.

edit 2: notably, the breakpoint for gems occurs not at int = 2 secondaries but int = 2÷1.08 = 1.85 secondaries. This is probably what you were thinking - so the usefulness of int/crit gems becomes feasible at 1 int = 1.84 crit.

[dark666105]

I look forward to when the first sets of cloaks drop.

First sets of cloaks?

[Aboubacar]

I think you might have a point with getting gear that has amplified stats on it (spr/haste/mast) but since we're trying to get a lot of crit and crit is not an amplified stat, we'd end up losing that bonus, right? Instead of having 500*1.08 spr on a piece, after reforging you'd have 500*0.6*1.08 spr and 500*0.4 crit, which is less than 500*1.08.

The gemming should just be an opportunity cost between int and secondaries, nothing more. By using exp gems you put yourself over the hit cap, which allows you to reforge out of spirit on gear and hopefully boost your crit from that.

Anyway, the exp/crit gems netted me the most dps and crit for my own tests, if you'd like to look over it for me in WrathCalcs I'd appreciate it. I'm currently in Queensland so I'll read and respond to threads but I wont be able to do anything with the list until I get home.

edit: didn't see Hasp's post, but he's correct. The spirit will come out of somewhere and using the numbers you posted earlier equates to a loss of 9 crit per gem as a net total.

For the maths: "x" represents the amount of crit gained from your gems, so int = x/2. We also lose x/1.08 to spirit because we're not using the exp/crit gems, and we add 1.74*x/2 to convert the int into crit.

x-x/1.08+x/2*1.74 = 0.944*x. If we had used exp/crit gems instead, we would still have x crit left because we met the hit cap with the expertise alone. Therefore, the difference is 0.056*x crit in favour of the exp/crit gems, or 0.056*160 = 9 crit per gem.

edit 2: notably, the breakpoint for gems occurs not at int = 2 secondaries but int = 2÷1.08 = 1.85 secondaries. This is probably what you were thinking - so the usefulness of int/crit gems becomes feasible at 1 int = 1.84 crit.

i mean you could be doing this on live to i supose but maybe over 700 crit rating is not an issue?
edit: mean expertize
also i was hoping someone can help me with something i am trying to find with wrathcalc simcraft. Need to find the dps loss of clicking incantation stafrall barksen and celestal alinment?

theres no button to switch the action priorty ;list for 2 sec delays

[Deleted]

Reason we don't gem expertise on live is because you would only be able to reforge the extra spirit into mastery and 1 int > 2 mastery. That is ignoring the fact that there is way too much hit/spirit on gear this tier (I'm 400 over cap \o/)

[Deleted]

Managed to get some free time, gonna wrathcalcs abit tonight see what i get, i still think we can improve the current bis list abit, we already favored towards crit abit for a slight theoretical dps drop.

Also slippy since the trinket amplifies the critical strike damage (i was mistaken in my calcs before didnt realise it didnt amplify crit) then doesnt equipping the trinket also increase the value of crit?

I cant see how some people are getting the same values for crit with and without the 8% increased critical damage.

[Deleted]

Yep. I dont have time to write about it now, but check the 5.4 changes and thoughts thread, somewhere in last 10 pages or so :P Also from playing ptr i dont find it to be successful to just spam eclipsed dot anymore. It all depends on the situation, i.e. how much hp the adds have, how quickly they need to die etc.

If adds have low HP and die faster than the DoT's duration, then there's no point in DoT-ing them. And I guess there must be a breakpoint of more than X adds where DoT-ing everything is not beneficial because it makes you drop Nature's Grace. Is that what you mean?

[Fleuria]

Managed to get some free time, gonna wrathcalcs abit tonight see what i get, i still think we can improve the current bis list abit, we already favored towards crit abit for a slight theoretical dps drop.

Also slippy since the trinket amplifies the critical strike damage (i was mistaken in my calcs before didnt realise it didnt amplify crit) then doesnt equipping the trinket also increase the value of crit?

I cant see how some people are getting the same values for crit with and without the 8% increased critical damage.

Like I said before you can possibly drop 2-3k mastery for extra crit rating due to mastery buff but going all out crit possibly isn't exactly worth it anymore as more damage is likely to come from other spells than just starsurge.