Page 7 of 20 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
17
... LastLast
  1. #121
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    266
    Few questions.

    How is it that our T16 BiS list has less crit rating than our T15 BiS list?
    What exactly makes mastery equivalent to crit now? / Why are we not continueing to stack crit in 5.4? (is there a crit cap that i am unaware of)
    Assuming crit and mastery are our best stats, wouldn't it make more sense to get 2H staff from garrosh instead of MH OH?
    Why is the sky blue?

    EDIT: The answer to question 1 may just be "there's a lack of crit on T16 gear" I haven't personally looked at it since i'm still in Lazy ToT Farm Mode status. But just curious if it was anymore intricate than that.
    Last edited by Skyepic; 2013-08-23 at 05:14 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    What exactly makes mastery equivalent to crit now?
    Correct me if I am wrong but Shooting Stars multi-target nerf reduces the value of Crit. RPPM changes reduce the value of Haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Assuming crit and mastery are our best stats, wouldn't it make more sense to get 2H staff from garrosh instead of MH OH?
    You get more stats using a MH + OH (also, the OH intellect enchant).

  3. #123
    Its because of the nerf to SS procs and the T16 4 set. Before the nerfs to both crit was valued very highly.

    Mastery is a flat dps gain as it increases, so having more mastery is good, and since we wont go for higher haste then it makes sense to take more mastery.

    I am not sure exactly why mastery is gaining more value, i will look abit later when i get back from the gym.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Its because of the nerf to SS procs and the T16 4 set. Before the nerfs to both crit was valued very highly.

    Mastery is a flat dps gain as it increases, so having more mastery is good, and since we wont go for higher haste then it makes sense to take more mastery.

    I am not sure exactly why mastery is gaining more value, i will look abit later when i get back from the gym.
    Like slippy said previously, Mastery isn't gaining any vallue, it's in fact the other stats losing value that brought Mastery to ~equal levels. Still not sold on this though and still waiting for confirmation on either to continue Crit gemming or focus more on Intel.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Like slippy said previously, Mastery isn't gaining any vallue, it's in fact the other stats losing value that brought Mastery to ~equal levels. Still not sold on this though and still waiting for confirmation on either to continue Crit gemming or focus more on Intel.
    Well considering in T15 on live 2x mastery < 1 int, where mastery is around 3.2 i think and int is somewhere like 7.4 if i remember properly, and now mastery is around 4.2 it has gained value. 2x Mastery is now > 1 int. Crit has dropped abit but still remains above int.

    Edit: If i was purely that all other stats were losing value then we would be gemming alot more int in our gear.

    Also question for slippy:
    You have the stats 10407 (9547) Haste, 10789 (9898) Mastery, 5160 (4786) Hit

    Now maybe i am missing something, but your haste and mastery seem to go up 9% whilst your hit goes up just shy of 8%
    Is this an error, i didnt see any hit instead of spirit in the gear list.

    Does this mean the HC TF 2/2 amp trinket gives 9% stat boost? I thought it didnt.
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-23 at 09:02 PM.

  6. #126
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Well considering in T15 on live 2x mastery < 1 int, where mastery is around 3.2 i think and int is somewhere like 7.4 if i remember properly, and now mastery is around 4.2 it has gained value. 2x Mastery is now > 1 int. Crit has dropped abit but still remains above int.

    Edit: If i was purely that all other stats were losing value then we would be gemming alot more int in our gear.

    Also question for slippy:

    Is this an error, i didnt see any hit instead of spirit in the gear list.

    Does this mean the HC TF 2/2 amp trinket gives 9% stat boost? I thought it didnt.
    For the moment, I believe the newest WrathCalcs included the amp trink going up to 9% with H WF 2/2 upgrades. The spirit total is lower than hit total, so the increase is still 9% spirit but you'd see slightly less than that for hit.

    On mastery: when I say "mastery hasn't increased" I say it in a relative sense to compare it to the other secondaries. With more int all the secondaries increase in value - in fact, as you increase any stat all other stats increase very marginally. Mastery has increased relative to int for T16, and it shows 2x mastery ahead of 1x int. Crit dropped relatively (it still increased) because of the multi-target modifier, but also because the 4-piece grants 8% instead of 20% now.

    On amp trinket: it does increase the value of crit per point, but not nearly as much as the other stats. Crit will be worth 1+0.08*critchance instead of 1, so for 50% crit 1 point is "worth" 1.04 crit. Amp trinket favours the stats that it multiplies directly.

    On gear: gear seems to have less crit innately on it, but there might be some options I didn't count because they had a maximal DPS lower than others (ie. perfect reforges netted less DPS). Additionally, you see a lot less crit because the two BiS trinkets don't have secondaries. This is something like 3.4-3.6k crit we lose from T16, and the lack of static crit on gear dropped it as well. Then you also have like 7k more mastery than last tier.

    Overall, I don't think WrathCalcs will show anything other than an equilibrium with crit and mastery. We might need to confirm these results with SimCraft, but for the moment I'll try to max crit without sacrificing too much paper DPS.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-24 at 04:23 AM.

  7. #127
    Ah yeah sorry just realised i am an idiot on that spirit thing. Do you have your numbers for spirit before amp?

    Ignore this part now, think i fixed it: Also on my wrathcalcs v130821b ptr i am using the bis list you have but it seems to be amping the hit value, closer to like 5.5k hit, not sure if there is a mistake somewhere.

    Also i am surprised how little the amp trinket favors crit. I am still convinced that it is better to gem spirit into the gear instead of expertise, gonna throw a wrathcalc at you in a bit see what you think.


    Slippy i am confident my WC is using the same gear, gems and enchants as yours, yet i am getting 160 more haste and 160 less crit, could you check yours incase you forgot to update something, its also giving me a DPS of 368458.64 using inc and hotw. This is also with 0 SS proc wastage, which wouldnt be the case live.

    Also wouldnt haste on gloves be replaced with mastery now?
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-24 at 07:55 AM.

  8. #128
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Ah yeah sorry just realised i am an idiot on that spirit thing. Do you have your numbers for spirit before amp?

    Ignore this part now, think i fixed it: Also on my wrathcalcs v130821b ptr i am using the bis list you have but it seems to be amping the hit value, closer to like 5.5k hit, not sure if there is a mistake somewhere.

    Also i am surprised how little the amp trinket favors crit. I am still convinced that it is better to gem spirit into the gear instead of expertise, gonna throw a wrathcalc at you in a bit see what you think.


    Slippy i am confident my WC is using the same gear, gems and enchants as yours, yet i am getting 160 more haste and 160 less crit, could you check yours incase you forgot to update something, its also giving me a DPS of 368458.64 using inc and hotw. This is also with 0 SS proc wastage, which wouldnt be the case live.

    Also wouldnt haste on gloves be replaced with mastery now?
    I'm still on holiday for the next few days so I can't check my WrathCalcs unfortunately.

    A 160 haste/crit discrepancy sounds like a gem mismatch, make sure you don't have a sneaky int/haste or exp/haste gem somewhere

    Gemming spirit into gear comes at the cost of crit, the stat you're wanting to maximise. All you'd end up doing is a spr -> crit reforge later which negates what you did. Exp gems still let you do that spr -> crit reforge but at the cost of int instead.

    I didn't get much time to look at the newest WrathCalcs so there could be problems. If that's the case I'll look over everything we've talked about on Tuesday.

    SS proc waste is baked into the rotation tab now, so don't pay attention to what the cell in Main says. If you wanna see SS proc waste go to Rotation and it's on the right side.

    Since haste is a cap the haste enchant shouldn't be a bad option. Using a mastery enchant means the haste has to come out of somewhere else, ie. crit or mastery. If it comes out of mastery then the mastery enchant is useless, if it comes out of crit then we're not maxing crit.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-24 at 09:09 AM.

  9. #129
    Gonna look into it, in the process of making a gear setup, however i understand that gaining spirit means it needs to come from somewhere else, but i am thinking that the gain *1.09 will help to offset maybe one of the expertise gems which infact should net more stats.

    And i agree on the enchant thing, however at this gear level it is rare to see 160 ish reforges anywhere on gear, which means that if we are for example 170 haste over cap then converting the enchant nets a gain also. Its the same idea with the boots enchant, you swap it when you are comfortable over the cap / under. I think of it more as a nice 170 stat change for when your trying to get close to BP's

    And i thought the same thing about the 160 stat difference in our gear, but i checked it through twice now, which is why i would love you to check it also. But no rush, enjoy your holiday man.

    Also do we know the exact % gain mastery gives? So if i gain 1% increased damage in eclipse, then that is how much increased in our entire dps? I am not sure how to calculate it, we are generally out of eclipse for maybe 5 seconds per cycle? If anyone knows a good estimate it would really help me to evaluate a few things including is mastery is going to be as good as WC says, if the 4 set is going to be worth taking over more stats.
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-24 at 09:27 AM.

  10. #130
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Gonna look into it, in the process of making a gear setup, however i understand that gaining spirit means it needs to come from somewhere else, but i am thinking that the gain *1.09 will help to offset maybe one of the expertise gems which infact should net more stats.

    And i agree on the enchant thing, however at this gear level it is rare to see 160 ish reforges anywhere on gear, which means that if we are for example 170 haste over cap then converting the enchant nets a gain also. Its the same idea with the boots enchant, you swap it when you are comfortable over the cap / under. I think of it more as a nice 170 stat change for when your trying to get close to BP's

    And i thought the same thing about the 160 stat difference in our gear, but i checked it through twice now, which is why i would love you to check it also. But no rush, enjoy your holiday man.

    Also do we know the exact % gain mastery gives? So if i gain 1% increased damage in eclipse, then that is how much increased in our entire dps? I am not sure how to calculate it, we are generally out of eclipse for maybe 5 seconds per cycle? If anyone knows a good estimate it would really help me to evaluate a few things including is mastery is going to be as good as WC says, if the 4 set is going to be worth taking over more stats.
    Yeah for the haste enchant that's usually how you'll balance out breakpoints, and it does give a bit more flexibility. The amount of times I've landed just a few haste short of the breakpoint is too many to count haha. So it should be better to start with the haste enchant, and if there's no way to reduce haste and turn it into crit, then swapping in the mastery enchant would be a good option.

    I don't think WrathCalcs will be inaccurate with mastery by much - it already models our short cycle times and accounts for eclipse uptime. The only problem would be the effect of the initial burst where all stats should be super inflated. Regardless, I think the more inaccurate stat would be crit due to the limited SS proc waste modelling Hamlet just put in and how crit doesn't scale linearly with targets. But no I don't have specific numbers for mastery, but a very basic model would be (eclipse uptime)/(cycle length)*mastery%. So 1% mastery, 5 seconds per cycle of non-eclipse and ~30 second cycles would correlate to 30/35*1% = 0.857% total damage. Since it's just a basic look it doesn't account for cooldowns (would increase value) nor more targets (increase) nor movement (further increase assuming in eclipse).

    Still not sold by your gemming argument, but I'd be interested to see if it leads somewhere. I don't think 160 crit/spr gems in place of 320 crit will be overall better for crit (or the amount of secondaries at all), but we'll have to see.

  11. #131
    Cool thanks, i am away next few days, so i will post you a load of stuff when i am back probably.

  12. #132
    Mastery inflates pretty well if you have a fight like council/galakras etc where you can dot several targets with CA the extra 15-30% eclipse damage on both dots and spells will greatly increase dps during this time.

  13. #133
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    Mastery inflates pretty well if you have a fight like council/galakras etc where you can dot several targets with CA the extra 15-30% eclipse damage on both dots and spells will greatly increase dps during this time.
    Yeah definitely. Mastery has a higher-than-average value while in an eclipse and a lower value while not. It'd make sense that multidotting while in an eclipse conveys a good deal of additional damage even if it's just flat damage.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Yeah definitely. Mastery has a higher-than-average value while in an eclipse and a lower value while not.
    Using "lower" to refer to a zero value might be considered an understatement.

    Maybe they should lower the eclipse bonus a bit and add some sort of non-eclipse bonus as well, both so it doesn't become worthless when we have to be outside eclipse for whatever reason and so our damage doesn't swing quite as wildly.
    But that probably wouldn't happen before 6.0 either way.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-08-25 at 06:34 PM.

  15. #135
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Using "lower" to refer to a zero value might be considered an understatement.

    Maybe they should lower the eclipse bonus a bit and add some sort of non-eclipse bonus as well, both so it doesn't become worthless when we have to be outside eclipse for whatever reason and so our damage doesn't swing quite as wildly.
    But that probably wouldn't happen before 6.0 either way.
    It may be a sliiiiiiiiight understatement, but still true nonetheless.

    They could do something like that as it would help to reduce our reliance on eclipses, but then again Blizzard has shown (for the moment at least) that they "really like" the eclipse mechanic and don't want to drastically change it, which would include evening-out the eclipse and non-eclipse phases.


    But I agree, any major change wouldn't happen until the expansion beta, and even then they might still be happy with boomkins.

  16. #136
    um, know you hate this question... but it happens every tier - when is the normal t16 bis list coming out ?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    I'll make a normal list again, but not until the tier is already underway. I'd like to get this list mostly finalised before I worry about maintaining a separate gear set.
    I think this quote answers your question well.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Anyone42 View Post
    um, know you hate this question... but it happens every tier - when is the normal t16 bis list coming out ?
    If you had read the thread, Slippy did answer that question already. Unless there are any major differences in breakpoints that you'll be unable to reach in BiS normal, but able to reach in BiS heroic, there is no reason to have to make an official normal BiS list, since it might end up being the exact same as the heroic one (no heroic only Ra-den boss with different items). Since the calculations are based on WrathCalcs, and WC not being quite done yet (last time I heard, anyway), we'll have to wait until it is.

    Edit: Alzu already answered it. Maybe I should read the thread first.
    "Such insolence... such arrogance... must be PUNISHED!"

  19. #139
    Managed to get a set on WC that only has 64 stats over caps, 23 over hit and 41 over haste BP after amplification. Also has 42638 spellpower. (didnt use expertise gemming atall)

    So less wasted stats, i then played around with gemming to see how i can affect the predicted dps by exchanging crit and mastery around. In all honesty the fluctuation was only around 2k overall when i went from gemming full crit to full mastery, and the inbetween was inbetween. I think it could be a fight by fight gemming change for max deeps, i can see the full crit build where i have around 17k crit doing better on some fights than the full mastery build.

    I am still only getting around 365k dps from wc, so slippy can you check yours again please, unless there is a bug in my version.

    If you want me to send you the gear setup i am using i will be more than happy since its abit less wasted stats.

    Also thought i would add that i played with the T16 4 set using it and not using it, and ALWAYS got significantly lower results when not using the 4 set, so i doubt we will use off pieces.

  20. #140
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Managed to get a set on WC that only has 64 stats over caps, 23 over hit and 41 over haste BP after amplification. Also has 42638 spellpower. (didnt use expertise gemming atall)

    So less wasted stats, i then played around with gemming to see how i can affect the predicted dps by exchanging crit and mastery around. In all honesty the fluctuation was only around 2k overall when i went from gemming full crit to full mastery, and the inbetween was inbetween. I think it could be a fight by fight gemming change for max deeps, i can see the full crit build where i have around 17k crit doing better on some fights than the full mastery build.

    I am still only getting around 365k dps from wc, so slippy can you check yours again please, unless there is a bug in my version.

    If you want me to send you the gear setup i am using i will be more than happy since its abit less wasted stats.

    Also thought i would add that i played with the T16 4 set using it and not using it, and ALWAYS got significantly lower results when not using the 4 set, so i doubt we will use off pieces.
    Send me your WrathCalcs in a PM (using google docs or whatever) and I'll compare the sheets side-by-side. I'll be home in around 12 hours, so don't expect a hasty reply haha.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •