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  1. #161
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    Slippy wouldn't mastery pull ahead on occasional AoE/Multi-Dotting?
    Say for example Immerseus Heroic where several (up to 25 adds in 25man) are active for 10-30 seconds, and with the occasional oozes spawning each time he submerges.

    I did a bit of testing tonight where I stacked mastery to 93% (including the 25% from DoC), while still having the 10289 Haste Breakpoint, but with crit at around 30% with Crit buff.
    I have to say: Single target DPS with Incarnation and CA completely demolished our other Moonkin who was running with full Crit, but without DoC.

    Furthermore, on "occasional AoE" (as mentioned above), Hurricane seemed to be able to follow other classes' AoE quite well, and actually did more AoE than some other classes.
    And with the Oozes spawning as Immerseus submerges, I felt that my DoTs with Mastery did much more than they did with pure crit. Basically, since Shooting Stars doesn't proc as often on multiple targets as it does in 5.3, stronger DoTs seem to do the trick when spread burst damage is needed.

    It just seems that Mastery is much stronger even though we do not benefit from it while not in Eclipse, as we do with crit.

    However, one of the downsides with stacking Mastery is definitely that on an encounter where Treants seem more fitting, the Treants won't benefit from our Mastery at all.

    I know this is just circumstantial, and I have no idea how to Sim Craft it nor do the math. I would love to see how Mastery Vs. Crit turns out on an encounter such as Immerseus, but it is probably hard, if not impossible, to Sim that situation.

    What are your thoughts on this? I see you have done some calculations where Crit still runs ahead, but it sure does not feel like it on certain encounters.
    You guys make good points, and you didn't even bring up crit having a multi-target modifier. I'll have a look for you, but we may need to wait until SimCraft is updated to 5.4 before I can give a certain answer. I'll have a look in WrathCalcs for the moment, but I wont be able to promise anything.

    Edit: just to preface the below, remember that WrathCalcs isn't 100% accurate and there's still an issue (though it may not be) with DoC doing less DPS for multi-targets, but here's some graphs to illustrate reforging in and out of crit for mastery.

    DoC Single-target



    DoC Two-targets



    DoC Three-targets



    From these graphs, you can see that the curve stays relatively the same shape regardless of how many targets you're facing. Additionally, each curve features a hump or equilibrium point at around 23k crit, 2k mastery. You can also see having 0 crit is much, much worse than having 0 mastery, and we'd expect that since it completely cuts out part of our class (SS procs). Just food for thought, and I'm not making any extreme claims, but crit seems to be the better stat even with DoC enabled.

    Hamlet touched slightly on why DoC may be showing less DPS with more targets over on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-...4/#post2329703. WrathCalcs could be completely correct, but I'm uncertain on the topic for now. I think supplementary evidence from SimCraft would be good in this regard.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-30 at 05:38 AM.

  2. #162
    Hi slippy

    This is the same BiS list in Normal mode ?
    Thanx.

  3. #163
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eloraqz View Post
    Hi slippy

    This is the same BiS list in Normal mode ?
    Thanx.
    From the (very limited) look at normal gear, it's the same pieces just a few gem and reforge changes. I didn't pour over it though.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    You guys make good points, and you didn't even bring up crit having a multi-target modifier. I'll have a look for you, but we may need to wait until SimCraft is updated to 5.4 before I can give a certain answer. I'll have a look in WrathCalcs for the moment, but I wont be able to promise anything.

    Edit: just to preface the below, remember that WrathCalcs isn't 100% accurate and there's still an issue (though it may not be) with DoC doing less DPS for multi-targets, but here's some graphs to illustrate reforging in and out of crit for mastery.
    I do see your point with the graphs, Slippy. But yet again, these fail to show what happens in the aforementioned situation with multiple targets being active on "occasion", and not for the entire encounter.

    When switching targets on occasion to burst down a set of low- to medium healthed adds, it seems to make more sense to have strong DoTs and single target abilities regardless of crit. Crit is an RNG factor, so relying on say Moonfire/Sunfire to crit as well as hoping for Shooting Stars to proc (with its reduced proc chance) may not be the best thing here. Chances are that you could get multiple Shooting Stars procs, just as well as you could get none at all. My point is that Crit in such circumstances can be very unreliable, whereas mastery is "always" a fixed percentage damage increase, if Eclipse is timed well.

    Neglecting Crit in favor of Mastery, as you point out, will greatly reduce the chance of SS procs, which is why it would be interesting to see if there's an equilibrium of a high amount of Mastery while still having enough Crit to get a reasonable amount of SS procs.

    I think it would be impossible to Sim a situation with multiple targets being active on occasion, and we shouldn't (in my opinion) aim to have the highest DPS on Patchwerk style fights where one, two or three targets are constantly active.

    It will be very interesting to see how this turns out. DoC definitely spiced things up a bit, but it does seem rather clunky having to cast HTs prior to entering Eclipses. It does cause some downtime on NG, so perhaps casting HTs to proc DoC with NG + Legendary Meta regardless of Eclipse position is the way to go in order to save as much time as possible.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    I do see your point with the graphs, Slippy. But yet again, these fail to show what happens in the aforementioned situation with multiple targets being active on "occasion", and not for the entire encounter.

    When switching targets on occasion to burst down a set of low- to medium healthed adds, it seems to make more sense to have strong DoTs and single target abilities regardless of crit. Crit is an RNG factor, so relying on say Moonfire/Sunfire to crit as well as hoping for Shooting Stars to proc (with its reduced proc chance) may not be the best thing here. Chances are that you could get multiple Shooting Stars procs, just as well as you could get none at all.
    Crit in such circumstances can be very unreliable, whereas mastery is "always" a fixed percentage damage increase, if Eclipse is timed well.

    Neglecting Crit in favor of Mastery, as you point out, will greatly reduce the chance of SS procs, which is why it would be interesting to see if there's an equilibrium of a high amount of Mastery while still having enough Crit to get a reasonable amount of SS procs.

    I think it would be impossible to Sim a situation with multiple targets being active on occasion, and we shouldn't (in my opinion) aim to have the highest DPS on Patchwerk style fights where one, two or three targets are constantly active.

    It will be very interesting to see how this turns out. DoC definitely spiced things up a bit, but it does seem rather clunky having to cast HTs prior to entering Eclipses. It does cause some downtime on NG, so perhaps casting HTs to proc DoC with NG + Legendary Meta regardless of Eclipse position is the way to go in order to save as much time as possible.
    Well yeah, that's definitely a unique spin to add to the mix. I can show you (with reasonable assurance) that crit is better when only considering one target, and the above graphs show (again with reasonable certainty) that crit's better for two or three constant targets. For targets that would last ~length of a DoT should also follow that situation as you're just combining the two extremes. Additionally, if the targets will last less than a DoT length, you have to question whether or not dotting is worth it.

    In terms of sustained cleave damage, mastery will probably be better. It will supply damage to all targets evenly, whereas crit will let you burst one of the adds better but cleave the rest less. Whether you want to base your damage purely around the damage you do to those mobs is up to you, but I doubt from what I've presented that a mastery build will net more damage overall than just going crit.

    Anyway I can't reply much (not at home) so I'll have more of a think later, but I can't see how you'll net more damage overall with mastery and if your intent is just reliable sustained cleave to those mobs you need to weigh that against the options crit gives you.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-30 at 11:12 AM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    In terms of sustained cleave damage, mastery will probably be better. It will supply damage to all targets evenly, whereas crit will let you burst one of the adds better but cleave the rest less. Whether you want to base your damage purely around the damage you do to those mobs is up to you, but I doubt from what I've presented that a mastery build will net more damage overall than just going crit.

    Anyway I can't reply much (not at home) so I'll have more of a think later, but I can't see how you'll net more damage overall with mastery and if your intent is just reliable sustained cleave to those mobs you need to weigh that against the options crit gives you.
    The options crit gives versus multiple targets have been rather limited with the 5.4 changes to Shooting Stars, but have not been affected much in terms of single target DPS. I think what concerns me the most with crit is that it will be hard to predict when and how many SS procs you'll end up getting on multiple targets. We were (in 5.3) relying heavily on the fact that Starsurge would proc so often that we wouldn't have to cast anything else, as well as relying on the fact that it would extend the duration of our DoTs.

    What we'll see now (in 5.4) is that we'll have a rather small amount of SS procs, making it harder to "tab" around and randomly extend DoT durations. This will also force us to hardcast Starfire/Wrath more than we're used to, and these won't hit anywhere close to Starsurge.

    Theoretically, it's evident that crit still pulls ahead of mastery, but in a real situation, I think it is easier and more reliable to work with a more mastery dependent spec. I will definitely try both builds, as they both surely have their strengths and weaknesses. Can't wait!

  7. #167
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    Theoretically, it's evident that crit still pulls ahead of mastery, but in a real situation, I think it is easier and more reliable to work with a more mastery dependent spec. I will definitely try both builds, as they both surely have their strengths and weaknesses. Can't wait!
    Yeah I think that's one of the good parts of the next tier: stats are relatively equal and wanted. I'll have more of a think on mastery on volatile additional targets when I'm home (and sober). It's great you bring up those points though as I can see arguments for and against but can't give a hard answer just yet.

  8. #168
    Black Blood of Y'Shaarj got a nice buff http://www.wowhead.com/item=105648 from i think ~1900int per stack up to 3022int

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumdidum View Post
    Black Blood of Y'Shaarj got a nice buff http://www.wowhead.com/item=105648 from i think ~1900int per stack up to 3022int
    id say its still bad
    up to only 10seconds is yuck

  10. #170
    Every RPPM trinket is a 10 second proc. At least Breath and Wushoolay's are as well in 5.4

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Every RPPM trinket is a 10 second proc. At least Breath and Wushoolay's are as well in 5.4
    I think it's "bad" because the max (or any other) stack of the intel proc only lasts 1 sec so there is not much you can do in the 1sec of the max proc.

    Edit: As opposed to Wush's 2sec stacks

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    I think it's "bad" because the max (or any other) stack of the intel proc only lasts 1 sec so there is not much you can do in the 1sec of the max proc.

    Edit: As opposed to Wush's 2sec stacks
    That was my point. Wushoolay's is being changed into 1 seconds/stack with a max duration of 10 seconds. So you really don't have that much choice in terms in the proc length anymore.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    That was my point. Wushoolay's is being changed into 1 seconds/stack with a max duration of 10 seconds. So you really don't have that much choice in terms in the proc length anymore.
    Oh...I wasn't aware of that. Breath also sucks with 10sec dur :<

  14. #174
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumdidum View Post
    Black Blood of Y'Shaarj got a nice buff http://www.wowhead.com/item=105648 from i think ~1900int per stack up to 3022int
    I'll have a play with it tonight and see if it changes the trinket comparison list!

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    I think it's "bad" because the max (or any other) stack of the intel proc only lasts 1 sec so there is not much you can do in the 1sec of the max proc.

    Edit: As opposed to Wush's 2sec stacks
    Wush is also getting the same treatment, its going to the whole stack per second to 10seconds

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumdidum View Post
    Black Blood of Y'Shaarj got a nice buff http://www.wowhead.com/item=105648 from i think ~1900int per stack up to 3022int
    Looks like that change was included with the recent WrathCalcs update. Doesn't change BiS trinkets (Kardris' and Purified) but it does shift Blood up a few ranks. I'll renew the trinket comparison list at a later date when it's more certain trinkets wont be altered.

    Edit: interesting aside on talents - for single target I see FoN taking the cake as the best L60 talent by far, with HotW and DoC pretty much even. NV, even with the 20% increase, still doesn't compete with the other two options, and FoN surpasses Incarnation/SotF easily for single target.

    However, things get really odd with 2 or 3 targets. It might just be WrathCalcs error, but for 2 targets HotW is clearly better than DoC (mostly because WrathCalcs is still saying DoC loses DPS with more targets), and FoN is about even with SotF. Three targets, though, SotF and HotW are the best options hands-down. DoC and Inc seem to trail behind with two or three targets, but I'm not going to conclude anything right now. I'd really like to have a look at talent usage in SimCraft before saying anything concrete, but it's at least something to ponder.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-31 at 07:13 AM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    NV, even with the 20% increase, still doesn't compete with the other two options, and FoN surpasses Incarnation/SotF easily for single target.
    How big of a difference are we talking with HotW/DoC compared to NV? And are the numbers with FoN vs. Inc roughly the same as in 5.3 when the treants got buffed? (As even after the huge simulated advantage, most people still used Inc and were doing equal numbers.)

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    How big of a difference are we talking with HotW/DoC compared to NV? And are the numbers with FoN vs. Inc roughly the same as in 5.3 when the treants got buffed? (As even after the huge simulated advantage, most people still used Inc and were doing equal numbers.)
    FoN and Inc are roughly the same as T15, about 2% total DPS difference for single-target. Extended single-target fights should show FoN ahead, but I agree Inc has the advantage with burst and synergy with other cooldowns to improve its effect. I don't think anything between these talents has changed between T15 and T16, so we should just continue to use them as we did in ToT.

    Single-target again: NV isn't doing so well, it's about 1.5% less DPS in every talent combination. While it seems to overtake DoC for 2/3-targets (again, I'm not entirely sure this is accurate), it still keeps that ~1.5% DPS gap behind HotW. It's pretty constant, and since the only change is a slight number tweak between T15 and T16 I don't think we'll see NV take over HotW at all. I said in T15 that NV would need a 100% damage increase only active during NV, and that's so unlikely that it's basically silly to bargain with. I think the same thing will happen this tier, but with a 20% increase to NV's damage it may only be a ~67% damage increase required for the two talents to equalise. Regardless, that's still an unlikely situation where the damage mod is only active during NV.

    As for DoC, I'm stumped. I've poured over WrathCalcs to find an inadequacy with how it's being modelled or some random interaction it's having to reduce its damage, but I can't find one. Literally sat here for 5-6 hours today with no results. All I can see is it's moving damage from nukes to SS procs due to increased cycle length, but that's it. Puzzling at the least.

  19. #179
    Alright, thanks. I still think that for multitarget fights where the healing is intensive, NV will be very useful (like Primordius, DA in T15.)

    Regarding DoC, we probably could try it out on the PTR and try to see if the models are even roughly correct. If we can get a few people testing, that shouldn't be an issue hitting a dummy, then 2 dummies etc. I can try check some numbers from practice in the PTR in an hour or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Literally sat here for 5-6 hours today with no results
    Must be frustrating. Keep up the good work, nevertheless.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Alright, thanks. I still think that for multitarget fights where the healing is intensive, NV will be very useful (like Primordius, DA in T15.)
    I really want NV too be strong, but its utility is fairly weak in 25 mans (Especially when you see HotW tranq in 25 man http://www.twitch.tv/snybb/c/2748887 for reference), for 10 man I still see it as a great option as the smart heal is going too have more of an impact .

    DoC on the PTR is definitely a bit awkward to use, but after a few hours I was bursting for upwards of 50k higher on single target (Inc, CA, with DoC on 3-4 targets is jokes mode, and you do all the doop-a-loops). The sustain is a bit iffy, with the lack of a meta proc hurting both cycle time, and the ability to cast healing touch without it wasting essentially two GCDs. All in all, the new DoC will take some getting used too, but I can see it as the standard (High DPS) talent, with HotW for fights that require strong raid CDs.
    Last edited by Cybb; 2013-08-31 at 05:38 PM.

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