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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Don't think so, but flex does have its own tier (for example: <snip>).

    Also, updated the OP and switched the non-upgradeable Hellscream's mace for Horned Mace of the Old Ones. My reasoning is that the hit and crit don't get amplified on Rik'kal's Bloody Scalpel, and Kardris' Scepter has less secondary stats than the other options. It also gets me the most DPS in WrathCalcs.

    Furthermore, I've changed the reforges slightly to maximise crit, even though on paper it shows a couple hundred less DPS. In the scheme of things, the paper DPS loss equates to less than 1%, ie. not even noticeable, and if we follow previous tier logic the additional crit should improve our multi-target and reduce RNG. I'll still need to verify with SimCraft when it's updated later.
    Just a small note:

    Was playing around a bit. Wasn't able to significantly improve on anything, but switching to Rik'kals Bloody Scalpel (reforge hit->Haste), and swapping weapon and OH gems to int/haste, did net me about a 70 dps increase in the latest WC.

  2. #142
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Alright, a sizable update today!

    There's a bit of discussion over on EJ as to the modelling of SS proc waste (my post is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-...1/#post2329071). I've gone and changed the ticks wasted cell from 2*targets to 1*targets for the moment, and there's been a few changes.

    Mainly, crit has increased a good deal in value. In BiS I get 6.36 DPS per crit compared to 5.97 DPS per mastery, whereas in the previous list mastery was better per point. This caused me to change one of the pieces (boots) to the Broken Reliance ones, but there may be other items that should be switched. If you are going to do a comparison, please change cell Q19 on the Rotations tab to "=1*targets" so we can work with the same numbers.

    Additionally, it looks like crit stacking is back in, but there's still a fine line between going for more crit and going for the pieces with more secondaries. Mastery is still very close, so that's why I could only find 1 piece worth changing.

    I also tried filling in the rest of the spirit I needed with mastery reforges instead of exp/crit gems, and it came to be ~500 DPS loss. Let me know if you come out with something different, Zeriac.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kosars View Post
    Just a small note:

    Was playing around a bit. Wasn't able to significantly improve on anything, but switching to Rik'kals Bloody Scalpel (reforge hit->Haste), and swapping weapon and OH gems to int/haste, did net me about a 70 dps increase in the latest WC.
    Whoops I didn't refresh the page quick enough!

    I can have a look at the dagger again tomorrow, as I'm out of time tonight. The recent change for SS proc waste may affect your suggestion though.

  3. #143
    Thanks slippy, when i go full crit then the value of crit drops below mastery again 6.14 compared to 6.38, however such a small difference will only be noticeable in certain situations.

    Your new bis setup is better than the one i found so i wont bother posting it yet, gonna tweak it some more see how i do. Did you also notice that with that change you made (1 target) the value of int rose, it is now almost 9.5 which means 80 int in my gear list is worth pretty much 737 dps, and 160 crit is about 982 dps.

    I am using Seal of Sullen Fury in my list and also i use the offpiece of gloves over the head i just found it easier to manipulate stats that way. Gonna spend abit more time on it in the next few days. Also i would add, i tried both crit and mastery on ptr, i still personally find crit to yield me better dps (this could just be my playstyle), but i am in T15 bis with T16 4 set, so it might not be accurate.

  4. #144
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    While not an update per-se, I've gone through and tried to figure out the maximal DPS of each item in order to rank them individually. I did this by equipping the item, optimising for crit initially (so there's no possible way to get additional crit at all), then I used the Manual Adjustments line to balance haste/hit/mastery. Basically, this approach removes crit as a variable and makes mastery the deciding factor for haste and hit caps.

    There's a small possibility that lower ranked items combined give a better result than just using the top items, but the chance is very small. I'll do some fiddling for crit maximisation with lower ranked pieces later, but this list should be sufficient anyway.

    Additionally, this isn't like a piece-by-piece comparison like you'd see in other class forums. I'm not assigning a stat weights and then multiplying each stat on a piece for its expected DPS - instead, I've got a static list and I'm swapping in pieces to see what the marginal change between items causes. The former has a large margin of error while the latter has a much smaller one. This is due to stats changing dynamically, and that the further you go out from a tangential approxmation plane to a DPS curve, the less accurate you'll be.

    Also, any two or more sequential items with "**" next to them means that those items are almost exactly the same and are almost exactly equal to each other.

    ** note: this list has been updated as of 23/09/13

    Off-pieces
    1. Darkfang Mask - 380,329
    2. Robes of the Warrior's Fall - 379,853
    3. Shoulders of the Roiling Inferno - 378,871 **
    4. Hopeglow Spaulders - 378,799 **
    5. Self-Reflecting Mask - 378,687 **
    6. Amber Parasite Wraps - 378,239 **
    7. Confident Grips - 378,109 **
    8. Shado-Pan Reliquary Kilt - 377,389
    9. Klaxxi Grips of Rejuvenation - 377,123

    Necks
    1. Necklace of Fading Light - 380,329
    2. Lost Necklace of the Mogu Empress - 379,782 **
    3. Untainted Guardian's Chain - 379,702 **
    4. Ashflare Pendant - 379,275

    Bracers
    1. Bracers of Purified Spirit - 380,329 **
    2. Bracers of Averted Fatality - 380,037 **
    3. Castlebreaker Bracers - 379,878 **

    Belts
    1. Seal of Karmic Return - 380,329 **
    2. Dragonmaw Emergency Strap - 380,121 **

    Boots
    1. Boots of Broken Reliance - 380,329
    2. Salt Water Sandals - 379,547 **
    3. Boots of Perilous Infusion - 379,487 **

    Rings
    1. Laser-Slice Signet - 380,329
    2. Seal of Sullen Fury - 380,197 **
    3. Signet of the Dinomancers - 380,147 **
    4. Seal of Eternal Sorrow - 379,898
    5. Extinguished Ember of Galakras - 379,114 **
    6. Iyyokuk's Hereditary Seal - 378,948 **
    7. Petrified Pennyroyal Ring - 378,878 **

    Main-hands
    1. Horned Mace of the Old Ones - 380,329 **
    2. Rik'kal's Bloody Scalpel - 380,281 **
    3. Kardris' Scepter - 380,026 **
    4. Gaze of Arrogance - 378,696
    5. Lever of the Megantholithic Apparatus - 378,052
    6. Drakebinder Greatstaff - 377,264
    7. Hellscream's Warmace - 374,398
    8. Hellscream's War Staff - 371,475

    Off-hands
    1. Juggernaut's Power Core - 380,329 **
    2. Revelations of Y'Shaarj - 380,226 **
    3. Purehearted Cricket Cage - 379,535 **
    4. Festering Primordial Globule - 379,406 **
    5. Hellscream's Tome of Destruction - 376,366

    Overall, the current BiS list uses almost all of the top items and has a very small stat deficit. Only item not used is Seal of Sullen Fury, as it makes us remove some Crafty exp/crit gems and prevents it from achieving its maximum. This list is also useful for gearing up, but do note for the reasons I stated above this list is most accurate at heroic BiS levels - always use WrathCalcs to find out gearing choices yourself.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-09-23 at 04:54 AM.

  5. #145
    I would feel very uncomfortable being under the hit cap.

    Even if higher dps on paper, having your cast miss when you're expecting it to land and trigger an Eclipse, for example, could be a potential dps loss. I know that you are going to get hardly any misses, being almost at the cap but still.

  6. #146
    Being 4 rating under the hit cap is nothing. I've had now 2 raids where I've had 5099 hit and 0 of my spells have missed. During 2 whole ToT clears. I can agree that being over the hit cap is important and is worth a tiny dps loss on paper, but 4 rating is small enough to disregard.

  7. #147
    So i guess with the new change to DoC we will definitely be going for more mastery, crit will probably excel abit on single target when we use Hotw, but multi target fights will be DoC + mastery. Anyways i am awaiting a new WC build so i can see.

  8. #148
    Slippy, when i sent you the list i made for normals, have you happen to make one for normal? My guild will probably be in heroics the second week, but I was just wondering if you also had a normal as well as the heroic.

  9. #149
    8 pages not too difficult to skim through, your answer lies within.

  10. #150
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    So i guess with the new change to DoC we will definitely be going for more mastery, crit will probably excel abit on single target when we use Hotw, but multi target fights will be DoC + mastery. Anyways i am awaiting a new WC build so i can see.
    Mastery does not increase the value of DoC because DoC is a flat 25% increase. Stat priority should not change.

    Edit: in fact, crit is even further ahead of mastery with DoC selected.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-08-29 at 12:49 AM.

  11. #151
    Quick note: transcription error on your cloak enchant, should be Lightweave?

  12. #152
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecton View Post
    Quick note: transcription error on your cloak enchant, should be Lightweave?
    Nah I use Lightweave in the sheet but in the list I make it general without professions. It's the "if you don't have x profession, then this is your best enchant," sorta thing. But in WrathCalcs I evaluate with Lightweave/Springs enabled.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Nah I use Lightweave in the sheet but in the list I make it general without professions. It's the "if you don't have x profession, then this is your best enchant," sorta thing. But in WrathCalcs I evaluate with Lightweave/Springs enabled.
    Gotcha. There have been a few updates on EJ today of the sheet, new talents/trinket updates/etc.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Mastery does not increase the value of DoC because DoC is a flat 25% increase. Stat priority should not change.

    Edit: in fact, crit is even further ahead of mastery with DoC selected.
    Either I misunderstand, or you misunderstood what I meant.

    I mean that multi-target fights where we will use DoC, we will spend more time in eclipse where dots will be worth much more dps, hence mastery should pull ahead in theory. If I am wrong then I am very confused why this isn't the case. I agree that crit pulls ahead in normal rotational circumstances, but not in pure aoe multidot?

    Anyways let me know if I am wrong.

  15. #155
    While i do not have the numbers, the basic idea is that, while still multi dotting, you want to keep cycling through your eclipses in order to keep nature's grace up. As they reduced the proc coefficient of Shotting Stars, crit still retains a high value as we do not waste that many procs in multi target scenarios.

    But i am sure you will find more in this on a previous page :O

  16. #156
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Either I misunderstand, or you misunderstood what I meant.

    I mean that multi-target fights where we will use DoC, we will spend more time in eclipse where dots will be worth much more dps, hence mastery should pull ahead in theory. If I am wrong then I am very confused why this isn't the case. I agree that crit pulls ahead in normal rotational circumstances, but not in pure aoe multidot?

    Anyways let me know if I am wrong.
    You wont spent more time in eclipse depending on your talent choice; in fact, you'll most likely spend less proportionately due to HT casts.

    If DoC becomes the go-to multi-target talent, all it'll do is increase eclipse damage through DoTs/SS/occasional hardcast at the expense of NG downtime. So time in eclipse should not change at all, and in fact mastery should lose value due to eclipses being active for less time per cycle.

  17. #157
    Why are we spending less time in eclipse? Surely the time spent in eclipse will be the same or greater, not less?

    I base this on the fact that:
    Crit and SS procs are lower next tier, so less Starsurge's to push through eclipses
    Haste will remain the same, so no extra casts per eclipse.

    I can understand crit being more valuable, but if we really are going SoTF + DoC for best dps, then surely we will be spending much more time in eclipse, less hardcasting and thus mastery should net more gain?
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-29 at 04:56 PM.

  18. #158
    We're not spending less time in eclipse, we're taking more time to get to the next one.

  19. #159
    Slippy wouldn't mastery pull ahead on occasional AoE/Multi-Dotting?
    Say for example Immerseus Heroic where several (up to 25 adds in 25man) are active for 10-30 seconds, and with the occasional oozes spawning each time he submerges.

    I did a bit of testing tonight where I stacked mastery to 93% (including the 25% from DoC), while still having the 10289 Haste Breakpoint, but with crit at around 30% with Crit buff.
    I have to say: Single target DPS with Incarnation and CA completely demolished our other Moonkin who was running with full Crit, but without DoC.

    Furthermore, on "occasional AoE" (as mentioned above), Hurricane seemed to be able to follow other classes' AoE quite well, and actually did more AoE than some other classes.
    And with the Oozes spawning as Immerseus submerges, I felt that my DoTs with Mastery did much more than they did with pure crit. Basically, since Shooting Stars doesn't proc as often on multiple targets as it does in 5.3, stronger DoTs seem to do the trick when spread burst damage is needed.

    It just seems that Mastery is much stronger even though we do not benefit from it while not in Eclipse, as we do with crit.

    However, one of the downsides with stacking Mastery is definitely that on an encounter where Treants seem more fitting, the Treants won't benefit from our Mastery at all.

    I know this is just circumstantial, and I have no idea how to Sim Craft it nor do the math. I would love to see how Mastery Vs. Crit turns out on an encounter such as Immerseus, but it is probably hard, if not impossible, to Sim that situation.

    What are your thoughts on this? I see you have done some calculations where Crit still runs ahead, but it sure does not feel like it on certain encounters.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    Slippy wouldn't mastery pull ahead on occasional AoE/Multi-Dotting?
    Say for example Immerseus Heroic where several (up to 25 adds in 25man) are active for 10-30 seconds, and with the occasional oozes spawning each time he submerges.

    I did a bit of testing tonight where I stacked mastery to 93% (including the 25% from DoC), while still having the 10289 Haste Breakpoint, but with crit at around 30% with Crit buff.
    I have to say: Single target DPS with Incarnation and CA completely demolished our other Moonkin who was running with full Crit, but without DoC.

    Furthermore, on "occasional AoE" (as mentioned above), Hurricane seemed to be able to follow other classes' AoE quite well, and actually did more AoE than some other classes.
    And with the Oozes spawning as Immerseus submerges, I felt that my DoTs with Mastery did much more than they did with pure crit. Basically, since Shooting Stars doesn't proc as often on multiple targets as it does in 5.3, stronger DoTs seem to do the trick when spread burst damage is needed.

    It just seems that Mastery is much stronger even though we do not benefit from it while not in Eclipse, as we do with crit.

    However, one of the downsides with stacking Mastery is definitely that on an encounter where Treants seem more fitting, the Treants won't benefit from our Mastery at all.

    I know this is just circumstantial, and I have no idea how to Sim Craft it nor do the math. I would love to see how Mastery Vs. Crit turns out on an encounter such as Immerseus, but it is probably hard, if not impossible, to Sim that situation.

    What are your thoughts on this? I see you have done some calculations where Crit still runs ahead, but it sure does not feel like it on certain encounters.
    Pretty much summed up my thoughts there also

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We're not spending less time in eclipse, we're taking more time to get to the next one.
    Also this isnt true atall, especially if we end up using Sotf as predicted by some players.

    And i also tested mastery on ptr since change, and comparing it with a week or so ago when i tested it, its doing way way better now with DoC
    Last edited by Ragingblaze; 2013-08-29 at 09:11 PM.

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