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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    Whats the voltage?
    I have had it upto 1.3v and had no luck getting higher than 4.2.

    Temps are fine though, even under full load running prime95 i don't go much over 60c using the H110

  2. #22
    Am I the only one wondering why is someone breaking apart a PC with 2 months old CPU?
    What if this CPU is "bad", and that's why it's replaced
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    It has 8. It uses 8 IR3599 Doublers. Which is exactly the point I was making. You are a victim of false advertising. It's total output is about the same as a Z77 Pro4 with 4 phase (~6500uF). Notably, the MSI has a higher capacitance of about 7200.

    Is it a bad board? Certainly not. It's an amazing board. But is it 32 phase amazing? No. Is it 32 phase expensive? Yes.
    Phase doublers allow to exist such a 16/32 phase VRM. They are necessary to double the phase count to have a proper operation or it would be just a mess like doubling the total switching frequency or crap efficiency. 8 phases boards can even be better than a 16 phase board when they use more caps & chokes giving a cleaner output. True phases come from the PWM, normal phase count is just the physical ones on board.

    The Asrock you've been talking about, doesn't even make use of doublers but instead they just link them straightly like on the Z77 Extreme4 making them totally crap so no they won't output so much power as a ROG 8phase VRM.

    The list the OP gave, the maximus VI has the best VRM design & quality wise; end of it. Those 16/32 vrm boards aren't close to be better than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Notarget
    Your don't need an expensive motherboard anymore for good overclocking.
    Nowadays no you don't because cpu's are so efficient nowadays I really doubt you can bring a haswell to 200W under normal scenario overclocking. Years ago CPU's were just horrible, some people having their VRM going boem etc or in some rare cases at stock clocks even motherboards VRM couldn't handle a new chip. I've had a GB EP45-DS3P with no load line calibration option making it freaking annoying to OC. I had to pump like 1.55V in the bios to get a voltage of 1.40V >.< Some cheaper z77 boards didn't have load line calibration so they're just junk to me.

  4. #24
    Brewmaster catbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    Am I the only one wondering why is someone breaking apart a PC with 2 months old CPU?
    What if this CPU is "bad", and that's why it's replaced
    short story slightly expanded for the curious cat: they are moving to another country and will not be staying in one place
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  5. #25
    Immortal Notarget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithh View Post
    Nowadays no you don't because cpu's are so efficient nowadays I really doubt you can bring a haswell to 200W under normal scenario overclocking. Years ago CPU's... <SNIP>
    Well we are talking Z87 and about today's motherboards or at least I am and that's what OP was asking about, how boards were in the past don't really concern me as it doesn't really change my statement.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
    I have had it upto 1.3v and had no luck getting higher than 4.2.

    Temps are fine though, even under full load running prime95 i don't go much over 60c using the H110
    Have you tried upping your VRIN to 1.8-2? That provides a great lot of stability.
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  7. #27
    So, if I understand this correctly - cheapest Mobos are not designed for good overclocking?
    How can I know then which mobo will let me overclock properly? Which mobo parameter is responsible for this?

    In case of 4670k which mobo should I choose if I want to OC to 4.4 Ghz?
    I wanted to go with cheapest ASrock Z87 Pro3, but after reading this thread I started looking at ASRock Z87 Extreme4. And when I compare those 2 all I can see is that the letter has some better sound system, SLI / xfire support and 2 PCI x16 slots, all of which is useless to me.
    There are also some differences in BIOS and power phase design. Is that what makes difference for overclocking?
    Last edited by procne; 2013-08-20 at 07:26 AM.
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  8. #28
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    So, if I understand this correctly - cheapest Mobos are not designed for good overclocking?
    I wouldn't say that... More like... cheaper mobo's have a much higher chance of not being able to overclock as well as a more expensive board to a point. As I stated earlier... A $100 board can likely hit higher clocks than a $70 board.... However a $200+ board will be no better than a $130 or so. 110-140 is usually the 'sweet spot' for quality, good boards that have high overclock potential.

    But, there are other things to consider, too. There are certainly expensive boards that may overclock for crap. And there may be stupid cheap boards (especially if on sale) that might do amazing.

    How can I know then which mobo will let me overclock properly? Which mobo parameter is responsible for this?
    Honestly? Reviews, trial an error. People have purchased, tested, and determined which boards are good. On the average, higher power phase boards (6-8) will have much greater potential than 4 phase boards, both because of better power control, and higher phase boards usually are of better quality design as well.

    Of course, all this is also dependant on your CPU. If you get an unlucky crap chip bin, no amount of good board design will help. If you get a phenomenal chip, you might be able to get a cheaper board and push it higher. Of course, you won't KNOW you have a good or meh chip, until you get the board. Thats why they call it the chip or silicon lottery.

    I wanted to go with cheapest ASrock Z87 Pro3, but after reading this thread I started looking at ASRock Z87M Extreme4.
    While I can't speak for the Z87 Pro3, the Pro4 is a 3 phase, strangely. The Pro3 can't be any better. The Z87M Extreme4 is a 4 Phase. The Extreme4 (non-M) is a 6 phase.

    I don't think you'll hit 4.4 on the Pro3. Probably more like 4.2. HOWEVER, not only is again dependant on the chip to an extent... But I also don't feel that the $50 price increase on any of those 'better' boards is worth it for a 200mhz increase.

    TLDR: If it were me, I'd go with the Pro3 and see what happens. When I got my 3570K, I got an MSI Z77A-G41 board, debateably the cheapest (and possibly lowest quality) 'decent' board there is (for $70 to boot). I can't break 4.6ghz on it, but you know what? I couldn't be happier. I could have spend an extra $30-50 on a board, and pushed that sucker up to 4.8... And I think I'm content that I saved a bit.
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  9. #29
    Immortal Notarget's Avatar
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    I'll just relink the video:



    4.7GHz on the cheapest mini-ITX they could find. You can't really compared much to Z77 or older generations.
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  10. #30
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notarget View Post
    4.7GHz on the cheapest mini-ITX they could find. .
    That's... sort of a... I don't know what to think of that. I imagine the 'cheapest' mini-ITX board at $140 (when this was made) likely has better overclock capability than, say the $85 Pro3. Granted, the GA Z87N is a 4 phase board. So, I mean.. I guess there's that? He says it's "Bare bones" but that has no indication of quality of parts used in manufacturing. That's like saying a new BMW is likely worse than a old semi-truck, because there's "less stuff"

    I'm not sure why he chose that board, instead of an ACTUALLY CHEAP board, to run this test. Also, the fact that he got it to 4.7ghz indicates a decently good chip, which may reach that simply because it's good.

    It's entirely possible (and don't quote me on this, I don't actually know), if a worse chip were taken, one that actually had trouble reaching medicore clocks of 4.3-4.4.... Perhaps the Maximus 6 would be able to get higher clocks than the Z87N.

    The test is interesting, but I feel that poor choices were made in the stuff used to test this.

    I may test it myself. My girlfriend has a 2500K, with an H61 board. I may slap my board into her system to OC it, and buy myself a new, nicer board, and see if I can push anything higher.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    While I can't speak for the Z87 Pro3, the Pro4 is a 3 phase, strangely. The Pro3 can't be any better. The Z87M Extreme4 is a 4 Phase. The Extreme4 (non-M) is a 6 phase.
    Wow... that's something totally different than what ASRock webpage states. It shows 4 phase for Pro3, 6 for Pro4, 8 for M Extreme4 and 12 for Extreme4.
    So looks like the numbers were doubled? But how do you know what is the real number of phases? I tried counting those... capacitors (?) near CPU slot, but it didn't work.

    I have looked at http://www.msi.com/product/mb/Z87-G43.html as well, and someone said it's 6 phase. Is it really 6 phase or 3?
    And Gigabyte GA-Z87-HD3, which is supposed to be 4 phase.

    Long story short - 4 phase mobo should be enough for 4.4 overclock of 4670k, right?
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  12. #32
    Immortal Notarget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    That's... sort of a... I don't know what to think of that. I imagine the 'cheapest' mini-ITX board at $140 (when this was made) likely has better overclock capability than, say the $85 Pro3. Granted, the GA Z87N is a 4 phase board. So, I mean.. I guess there's that? He says it's "Bare bones" but that has no indication of quality of parts used in manufacturing. That's like saying a new BMW is likely worse than a old semi-truck, because there's "less stuff"

    I'm not sure why he chose that board, instead of an ACTUALLY CHEAP board, to run this test. Also, the fact that he got it to 4.7ghz indicates a decently good chip, which may reach that simply because it's good.

    It's entirely possible (and don't quote me on this, I don't actually know), if a worse chip were taken, one that actually had trouble reaching medicore clocks of 4.3-4.4.... Perhaps the Maximus 6 would be able to get higher clocks than the Z87N.

    The test is interesting, but I feel that poor choices were made in the stuff used to test this.

    I may test it myself. My girlfriend has a 2500K, with an H61 board. I may slap my board into her system to OC it, and buy myself a new, nicer board, and see if I can push anything higher.
    I'm guessing he used an mini-ITX board because generally the fairly cheap and smaller form factor boards (mini-ITX) weren't considered great overclockers - Afterall it's limited how much you can pack in such a small board. I also mentioned a ~$130 cutoff point, not finding the cheapest possible board (all form factors considered) and mini-ITX usually cost a little bit more than a comparable ATX board.

    I honestly don't see the poor choices for testing you're talking about.

    His video, testing and conclusion was also backed up by TTL:



    Pretty much all Z87 boards (there is of course exceptions) will perform the same overclocking wise with a small margin. Around the 4:30-5:00+ minute mark in the video, the limiting factor now is the CPU (and cooling) not really the boards unless we are talking extreme overclocking.
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  13. #33
    Ugh... I'm starting to think that this whole overclocking is simply not worth it with Haswell. "Get a K chip, it's only 20$ more for a considerable performance boost" they say. But at the same time they forget to mention that you have to buy aftermarket cooler (another 30-80$), a more expensive mobo with z87 chipset (another 10-30$), potentially change your case or buy additional fans, and in the end you can get screwed by chip lottery, and the "considerable performance boost" turns out to be mere 500 Mhz, which is 13% increase (3.8 turbo -> 4.3 OC) in case of 4670k
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  14. #34
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    6 for Pro4
    8 for M Extreme4
    12 for Extreme4
    Pro4 is "6" in that it's likely 3, with dual outputs (but no additional capacitance)
    M-Extreme 4 also uses dual output, so it's 8, with I believe half the capacitance (in theory, 8 at half is better than 4 at full, however parts may not be as good quality)
    And 12 is the same case. A dual output system.

    So looks like the numbers were doubled? But how do you know what is the real number of phases?
    There's a few sites, and a few videos that I can look up shortly. [URL="http://www.sinhardware.com/images/vrmlist.png"]This guy tears boards apart to find their real numbers.

    I have looked at http://www.msi.com/product/mb/Z87-G43.html as well, and someone said it's 6 phase. Is it really 6 phase or 3?
    I'm not positive, but I imagine it's a 4 phase. They're almost always even numbers. The 3 phase Pro4 is the first odd numbered one I've seen.

    Long story short - 4 phase mobo should be enough for 4.4 overclock of 4670k, right?
    Yyyyes? I'd say it's possible. It's more possible that you'll get to 4.3-4.4 than not. You ought to be okay.

    Keep in mind... It's not a hard rule that Phase = Better or gaurantees anything. It's simply more likely. And as you saw in those videos, a low-phase count board can certainly do well given chip lottery.

    I honestly think it's not worth stressing over. Get a nice decent board within your budget and pull the trigger.

    Also keep in mind.. a 4670K is not "3.8ghz". It's 3.4, with a turbo up to 3.8, that diminishes with more cores. Running games, you'll probably hit all four cores at the 3.5, 3.6 range... So pushing all the cores up to even 4.2-4.3 is pretty significant.
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