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  1. #201
    What is a combo point? It is a counter or token. Keep this in mind for later.

    What is a finishing move? A finishing move is an attack that will kill or KO the opponent. In order to deliver a finishing move, typically in video games with combat you need to push certain buttons in the correct order or weaken the target to a certain point. Wow requires that you weaken an opponent before a finishing move. This is where the token system steps in. CP are tokens that indicate the level of weakness of the target. You can't turn to a new target and perform a finishing move because they haven't been weakened. Now there are abilities that transfer CP and I feel that this is reasonable mechanic wise and flavor wise. However, this is why combo points stay on their targets.

    This is also the ideology that makes openers from stealth hit so hard because you have exploited their weakness of requiring sight.

    CP are already like holy power just on the target and not on the player so that is a poor argument imo for why they shouldn't be on the player. If they are on the player they will need to have time limit or finishers will need to be weaker because every 3-5 attacks will be a finisher.

    I think it would be a neat idea for CP to be on the player with no time limit, but every time you select a new target (including yourself) you lose a combo point. That way you never have a full combo lined up when you start on a new target and it keep the idea of weakening your target before you finish them off.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Glyph of the Unrelenting: Upon killing an enemy that yields experience or honor, any remaining combo points on that target are consumed to extend your Slice and Dice and Recuperate duration by 2 sec per combo point. Can only extend up to 60 sec.
    Are you familiar with the existing Glyph of Deadly Momentum? The flaw with that one outside of leveling is that you have to get the killing blow yourself, and that's actually a lot less likely than "warlock sees half health mob, begins winding up chaos bolt". Often a large nuke overkills it instead of the rogues individually tiny blows. But the bigger problem is, mutilate is already balanced around not maintaining slice and dice- it really isn't the same move for all classes. That and recuperate sucks pretty hard.

    Now. I'm not a game designer so this might well be a horrible suggestion for a range of reasons I haven't thought of. But the point is that I'd much rather see a fix on the side effects of the resource model, than trying to redesign the resource model.
    Well, it's not really a "redesign" though. I mean, it's clear that the tech exists and they like it- combo points on the character was requested very early, and we've seen it implemented on DKs (runic power), paladins (holy power), spriests (shadow orbs), and monks (chi). All of these are homogenized combo point rip offs, but none of them got that "use me on the same target" restriction. Some posts in this thread talk about "homogenization", but if your class identity is "we stole the rogue resource but get it better than them", then not only are you in a BIG group of specs, but that's also bullshit.

    I think the best solution is (and I've said it before)- There needs to be at least one spec that has them on the rogue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shepherd57 View Post
    What is a finishing move? A finishing move is an attack that will kill or KO the opponent. In order to deliver a finishing move, typically in video games with combat you need to push certain buttons in the correct order or weaken the target to a certain point. Wow requires that you weaken an opponent before a finishing move.
    What's up with crimson tempest? Did you read my post there? And what about recuperate? Or even slice and dice?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Combo points aren't the problem - the lack of compensation is. Numerous tweaks have been mentioned in this thread that would remove the 'leftover spill', and I could add my own to the list:

    Glyph of the Unrelenting: Upon killing an enemy that yields experience or honor, any remaining combo points on that target are consumed to extend your Slice and Dice and Recuperate duration by 2 sec per combo point. Can only extend up to 60 sec.

    Now. I'm not a game designer so this might well be a horrible suggestion for a range of reasons I haven't thought of. But the point is that I'd much rather see a fix on the side effects of the resource model, than trying to redesign the resource model.
    That's already in the game with deadly momentum and assassination doesn't even need it. And, while it might work solo questing it does nothing for raid content. Hell combat can already refresh a low snd with the cp left on the target anyways and possibly get more than that out of it so that proposed change could turn into a nerf. And to add to that everyone devs included have stated that snd is boring and that they don't like it so the solution to a crappy problem is just to make our most boring thing more boring? No thank you. From an assassination stand point especially that would be completely wasted and not "fix" anything.

    As far as other things like having a random buff on the player that "saves" combo points so you can switch targets and still have them up or whatever I think that's bad because anticipation is a buff that we have that works with our CP and has already proven to be fairly buggy especially when latency is concerned and especially where combat's mad spam is concerned so having another potentially buggy buff on top of a buggy buff just sounds like a world of bugged out shit in raids.

    Random interjection: they should make anticipation work as extra cp on the target or on the player or whatever to bake it into our current resource system and not have it be a buff since while rogues have had issues because of this monks and paladins have not since their bonus cp are built in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shepherd57 View Post
    What is a combo point? It is a counter or token. Keep this in mind for later.

    What is a finishing move? A finishing move is an attack that will kill or KO the opponent. In order to deliver a finishing move, typically in video games with combat you need to push certain buttons in the correct order or weaken the target to a certain point. Wow requires that you weaken an opponent before a finishing move. This is where the token system steps in. CP are tokens that indicate the level of weakness of the target. You can't turn to a new target and perform a finishing move because they haven't been weakened. Now there are abilities that transfer CP and I feel that this is reasonable mechanic wise and flavor wise. However, this is why combo points stay on their targets.

    This is also the ideology that makes openers from stealth hit so hard because you have exploited their weakness of requiring sight.

    CP are already like holy power just on the target and not on the player so that is a poor argument imo for why they shouldn't be on the player. If they are on the player they will need to have time limit or finishers will need to be weaker because every 3-5 attacks will be a finisher.

    I think it would be a neat idea for CP to be on the player with no time limit, but every time you select a new target (including yourself) you lose a combo point. That way you never have a full combo lined up when you start on a new target and it keep the idea of weakening your target before you finish them off.
    Personally I feel like rogues already have weak enough finishers as it is. Have you seen chaos bolt damage? Have you see templars verdict damage? Hell even rising sun kick feels like it hits harder and it's easier to build up (although it does have a CD) and essentially open with. Rogues have too much damage built into passives as it is so we don't get super big shiny flashing crits like other classes do. Sure envenom can crit hard but there's a lot more out there that can crit a lot harder aka destro locks flaunting their million+ damage chaos bolt crits.

    I really think that that's what too many people are glossing over is that we don't have strong finishers anymore. Back in vanilla when this was a problem evis hit hard as shit compared to most other abilities and it wasn't normalized. Our finisher really was that and it would regularly hit for half a person's life compared to now where other people routinely hit for way more.

    A lot of the complaint in here has been about pvp balance. We have redirect which currently makes this already a potential problem according to people. Yet lets say that you had 5 cp on a target, a target swap to kill was called so you target swap 5 cp, evis, MfD, evis again well sure you'd get some nice burst but really it doesn't hit for much which is especially prevalent in 2s where you can sit on 1 target trying to kill it and then double evis and hardly make a dent.

    Rogues burst has been nerfed so hard into the ground that all we really do is passive damage anymore. The rogue is essentially just a melee dot now. Even opening up on something with envenom is no where near what other classes are bringing to the table.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    As far as other things like having a random buff on the player that "saves" combo points so you can switch targets and still have them up or whatever I think that's bad because anticipation is a buff that we have that works with our CP and has already proven to be fairly buggy especially when latency is concerned and especially where combat's mad spam is concerned so having another potentially buggy buff on top of a buggy buff just sounds like a world of bugged out shit in raids.

    Random interjection: they should make anticipation work as extra cp on the target or on the player or whatever to bake it into our current resource system and not have it be a buff since while rogues have had issues because of this monks and paladins have not since their bonus cp are built in.
    This would be my only real concern as well, while I think its a step in the right direction, there is no garuntee that it be just as buggy as the current system

    I can see them actually giving us anticipation baseline. Its one of those talents that pretty much every PVE rogue uses with very little variation. Maybe just wishfull thinking.

  5. #205
    The thing with anticipation is- we don't need the whole thing baseline. We really COULD use a sixth combo point baseline, but retain our 5 CP system. AKA, 1 charge of anticipation.

    Anticipation basically gives you two benefits:

    1)- You can pool finishers for delivery in a small window. For instance, if your damage will matter more in a few seconds than now, you can build up 3-5 combo points and pool energy, and deliver env-env or env-muti-env-muti-env, or something. This feature really relies on the 5 combo point part.

    2)- When running a normal rotation, every spec but S can make a sixth combo point sometimes, and S often will depending on if the player is focused right on the HAT timing. With just one combo point of extra room, you eliminate this drama for combat and sub entirely, and allow mutilate to use a higher damage rotation, similar to the one it uses with current anticipation.

    The biggest issue is- we should have a UI for bandit's guile and anticipation. It shouldn't just be some junk buff. Paladins didn't get a dumb thing for their ability to bank 2 extra holy power, they got a UI part. So should we.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The thing with anticipation is- we don't need the whole thing baseline. We really COULD use a sixth combo point baseline, but retain our 5 CP system. AKA, 1 charge of anticipation.

    Anticipation basically gives you two benefits:

    1)- You can pool finishers for delivery in a small window. For instance, if your damage will matter more in a few seconds than now, you can build up 3-5 combo points and pool energy, and deliver env-env or env-muti-env-muti-env, or something. This feature really relies on the 5 combo point part.

    2)- When running a normal rotation, every spec but S can make a sixth combo point sometimes, and S often will depending on if the player is focused right on the HAT timing. With just one combo point of extra room, you eliminate this drama for combat and sub entirely, and allow mutilate to use a higher damage rotation, similar to the one it uses with current anticipation.

    The biggest issue is- we should have a UI for bandit's guile and anticipation. It shouldn't just be some junk buff. Paladins didn't get a dumb thing for their ability to bank 2 extra holy power, they got a UI part. So should we.
    I thought 10 cp with anticipation was a little odd when I first saw that talent. 8 would make more sense from a purely cp saving option that way during shadow blades you could get 4 cp from mut, then get another 4 points without having fear of losing any with 2 back to back mut crits during SB.

    That being said I actually really really really love having 10 possible cp since it makes for a smoother upkeep of rupture and envenom since with my experience they generally fall off at different times but frequently during the fight they both are about to fall off at the same time and it's nice being able to put up both a 5 pt rupture and a 5 pt envenom back to back .

    But it would be pretty easy to implement a UI element that has 5 cp as well as room for 5 anticipation charges and not just have like a red ring of cp around the picture.

    And while it could be argued that since anticipation is a talent so it just gets a buff since it's not baseline monks/locks get extra charges that adds into their UI and doesn't count as a buff.

  7. #207
    @warstar or simply use addons for this like we do now. i made myself pretty sweet CP + Anticipation CP via WeakAuras :3
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    @warstar or simply use addons for this like we do now. i made myself pretty sweet CP + Anticipation CP via WeakAuras :3
    I use TellMeWhen to put a button with the anticipation charges next to my char (doesn't show up when there are no charges)

    But still, Blizzard could have better with providing a good UI element for this, instead of the buff that shows up somewhere between all other buffs and which is hard to seach for in the middle of a fight.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    @warstar or simply use addons for this like we do now. i made myself pretty sweet CP + Anticipation CP via WeakAuras :3
    Well, I mean, I think we all have addons for stuff we need. But basic stuff like "am I in green 1 or green 3" or "do I have 3 charges of anticipation" should be in the UI. Anticipation duration- needed thing or just dumb?

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well, I mean, I think we all have addons for stuff we need. But basic stuff like "am I in green 1 or green 3" or "do I have 3 charges of anticipation" should be in the UI. Anticipation duration- needed thing or just dumb?
    yes it is and its not going to change to be true i cant even play with standart CP ui anymore since they sometimes just dont update or update too late and i fuck up pressing 1 button more then i should and this is wasting CP due to bad cp ui when heal lag gets bad i screw sometimes up so it adds up with my selfmade CP traking it doesnt happen as often
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    yes it is and its not going to change to be true i cant even play with standart CP ui anymore since they sometimes just dont update or update too late and i fuck up pressing 1 button more then i should and this is wasting CP due to bad cp ui when heal lag gets bad i screw sometimes up so it adds up with my selfmade CP traking it doesnt happen as often
    I don't get where Blizz thought that the reduced GCD was a smart idea. The internet has come away even since WoW came out same with PCs. But, Blizz has always been about catering to the common man with the not optimal PC and not having the fastest internet and that's been one of their biggest selling points yet now they've made it to the point that technology just isn't keeping up and lag is causing a lot of issues. With a 1.5 seconds GCD everything is fine and there's enough time for latency to not be much of a factor. Even with a 1 second GCD everything is fine and there's enough catch up time. Under 1 second and then lag starts screwing stuff up.

  12. #212
    What is the big deal if it acts a lot like holy power? It wouldn't be holy power. Holy Power costs no Mana to the paladin, Holy Power only stacks to 3, and Holy Power has different ways of accumulating.

    My second point is that almost all classes are the same anyway, so the "reason" why they wont do it is simply because they don't want to. The amount of abilities that most other classes have a near-identical copy of with a different name is becoming unrealistic. They've butchered the lore.

  13. #213
    Sad times when class uniqueness comes from a clunky mechanic that's outdated as hell.
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  14. #214
    I'd rather have then stick to target, but not disappear from that given target when switching to another.

  15. #215
    If they were to transfer to the player, as a buffer, when a target dies, that could be something.
    Then you´d either have to redirect to a new target, or spend them on SnD, recoup or something targetless.
    Or a more forgiving route would be that they´d be automatically moved from you, to the next target you attack (apply CPs to)
    But if you switch before your target is dead, the CPs would obviously remain on that previous target unless you redirect.

    That´d get around the cases with mobs that just dissolve, or bosses that do things in phase transitions that remove the original boss and and creates a new one.. basically the cases where the CPs are just gone.
    EDIT:
    This would make the entire leveling experience play much better aswell I think.
    Last edited by Shenjin; 2013-08-26 at 02:26 PM.

  16. #216
    Let me come clean about this topic: I'm not particularly invested in this issue. I'm mostly concerned about the way in which we, as a community, handle feedback. I have the feeling we're sailing adrift in this regard: no clear direction as to what we want, or what we are, or what we could be. We've lost very vocal members this last expansion cycle (barring some unexpected cameo) and that's taking a toll on how we produce working, effective and interesting feedback.

    I'm of those that think a discussion is more productive if you expose the ups of your discourse and listen to the ups as well of your opponents. Trying to shoot down the other parties, or point out flaws in their concept, rarely leads to anything. A discussion arises from the need to solve something; points are brought up then we reach a better understanding of the situation. For that very reason I offered a working frame on the pro-cp-on-rogue side: it's a QOL issue, try and solve that. Mixing it with a desire for efficiency, or claims that other specs/classes 'work better', or accusing the other side of stubbornness, is not interesting in my opinion.

    I've seen this topic unfold and ungodly amount of times since I started playing, so I kind of expected it becoming somewhat heated. I took the license to cut to the chase and frame this issue as a QOL/fun one (for that's how it usually ends up looking like). Perhaps I did so too hastily; perhaps too combative, even. So let me be clear: while I currently enjoy how our resource system works, I'm not advocating for status quo just for the sake of it. I firmly believe Blizzard needs to cast a wide net (which is not the same as appealing to a majority). They simply try and have a variety of mechanics so people can choose. I concede offering an opt-out sounds reasonable: as long as there's a trade off.

    But that opt-out can't be designed if we don't understand what is it that the current status appeals to. I think it's been laid out in many ways and yet I feel some people advocating for a change are ignoring it, or failing to understand it. In reality both approaches could work: we just need a way to make them interesting. Current system is deeply tied to a reward-punishment way to deliver engagement (and, thus, fun): lingering cps that you didn't use are the last and most noticeable way to telegraph the fact that there's room to improve; they appeal to the hardest of realizations: you could have played better. We often frame this as a way to distinguish good rogues from excellent ones, because that's easier to digest, but it really is personal feedback. It's part of the long tail of the learning curve.


    A bit of an anecdote on that learning curve: I reached lvl 60 without understanding that those little circles around my portrait were the ubiquitous combo points some of my abilities kept talking about. I would smash -what I later learnt to call finishers- buttons as soon as they lighted up; and I would hopelessly press the auto-attack button (bound on the 1 key) as a filler spell when I didn't have enough energy to Sinister Strike. I pugged up to Sartura in AQ without ever using SnD (for it seemed quite a silly damage-less ability). I would argue rogues used to have one of the highest entry requirements in regards to learning.

    I've leveled some 15 rogues or so ever since, so I was happy to see at some point (cata?) they added that little quest in the trainer to learn about finishers on a dummy. My current understanding is that this quest lets you understand the core mechanics, and, since you can't usually get to 5cps, a novel rogue will keep refreshing SnD with all those unused points. I think this heavily forces the idea of keeping SnD up deep into the back of the brain of any rogue. So, while I see how an experienced rogue can feel frustrated at low level/gear, I always had the intuition that this was a very important point on learning how to play. This goes to show why I think this whole thing is so rooted and deeply intertwined in every aspect of our game-style. I won't go into the merits of SnD (I'm not particularly happy with it anyway). But see that all that process can't happen with cps on the rogue. It might not be intentional (I suspect it is) and it certainly can be done differently; it just so happens that it works very well in many aspects of the game.


    So, back to the opt-out. If they go through with it, they need to address the punishment-reward mechanism. There needs to be a trade off somewhere -minor as it can be-. Monks (seeing as that's what we're comparing us to the most) have a constant risk of capping on resources or using it in not totally efficient ways: the high-ish cost and cooldown on Fists of Fury do the trick. If we simply did the conversion to stack-on-rogue, we would not have that kind of trade off. And, like it or not, this is the bread and butter of game design: there needs to be some obstacles between the players and their objectives. If we dial down the punishment, we inevitably dial down the reward.

    Now, WoW remarkably does very well in hiding the punishment: lost combo points are not particularly punishing. We're just too well versed in the game to figure that a lack of reward is where the punishment lies. The game revolves around a constant reward schedule. We saw how this apparent paradox breaks up during 5.0: the treadmill became too obvious and apparent with the daily paradigm of MoP: rewards were excessively granulated into a system with little punishment (it only rewarded time spent, without adding any quality to that time).

    I do understand there would already be some kind of clever play in there: you can actively pool on combo points to unleash when you swap. I just don't think that kind of punishment (not being effective on target swap) is obvious enough to the not-so-skilled rogue. That is: a very skilled one will always notice where to improve, but what we need to design is a game that telegraphs the average player that they *can* be better.

    This is why I don't think they'll implement it on only one spec. It's either a whole deal with a new play-style in the package, or a straight talent/glyph implemented as a hard trade-off: you stack cps on target but now you do less damage in some fashion (finishers can only go up to 4, you do less damage per finisher, you regen less energy or what have you). Kind of Glyph of Vendetta, or Glyph of Inquisition: things that let you play safer, that lower the requirements, but also lower the output. I must say I'm not a fan of those glyphs myself. I just think having one spec being fully efficient with combo points, with no draw back, would be cause for too much unnecessary drama. But more importantly, I simply think that the resource system should be consistent across the specs: regardless of where they stack they are a defining factor of the class as a whole.


    As for the UI inclined people: I have no insight on how Blizzard goes about this. But I do know every developer sooner or later asks the UI department for some bits. They usually have a very big and wild amount of work: every new feature can use a bit of UI so everyone wants to have theirs on the pipeline. I'd love it if some work went into the rogue default UI, but I'm not surprised that it hasn't -yet-. It's understandable that other classes got theirs: they simply were brought up in line with the -vastly- superior rogue default UI (which for long was the only one with a secondary resource in place). They've hinted already at wanting to improve many things with the default UI beyond the power-auras thingies. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the major changes rogues get for the next xpack is a new improved UI. And we'll enjoy the avalanche of complains about how they use resources where they're not needed. Just like shamans used enjoy themselves when the most changes they had in some patches were one or two new icons.


    edit:
    I forgot to mention one idea I think could work as a compromise. Since I do like points as they currently are, but deeply despise Redirect, I would like for it to work in a more seamless way. It could use the 'charges' cooldowns that many classes have now: once you change target *and* use a combo builder (so it doesn't happen instantly) you redirect previous cps to your new target and incur on a charge with whatever cooldown they deem appropriate in current patch.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-26 at 02:32 PM.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    -snip-
    After seeing your post it seems adequate to bring up again my latest proposal in this post, about a method to "preserve" the current punishment-reward mechanism without mechanical hindrances interfiring:

    I thought of a way to "solve" Redirect and AoE problems while keeping current swapping limitations. Basically, Combo Points would be stored on the Rogue but behave like Cataclysm's version of Bandit's Guile: if you attack another target with a combo generator, your previous combo points fade. Using Redirect would change your "current target", allowing you to attack without losing your Combo Points.

    -From a UI perspective, Combo Points would show all the time, but they would be colored gray if not targeting your "Combo Point target".

    -Server-side, your last target would have a hidden FLAG that allows the use of targeted finishers and the creation of additional combo points. Using Redirect generates that hidden FLAG on the new target, deleting the previous hidden FLAG. If you change a target without using Redirect, performing any combo builders would apply the hidden FLAG to the new target AND wipe out any Combo Point previously generated (Anticipation excluded).

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    After seeing your post it seems adequate to bring up again my latest proposal in this post, about a method to "preserve" the current punishment-reward mechanism without mechanical hindrances interfiring:
    Yes, I saw it. And I think you directly asked for feedback on it. I should have quoted you (and some others), but it was getting too wal'o'text-ish already.

    I liked the spirit behind it; I must say it feels complicated to understand though. For players new to the class at least. I honestly was expecting someone to run with your idea and streamline it (my last suggestion runs on it, so I wouldn't want to take full credit). However, it wouldn't surprise me that both your implementation and mine could cause several client-server issues: the whole deal with vanish over the years has been a fight of seamlessness against the game architecture. This is why I personally didn't pursue it but I would love if we keep exploring on it.

    But it certainly goes to show that there are solutions that:
    -are not middle-ground
    -are bold enough as an idea
    -keep the integrity of the class
    Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-26 at 03:05 PM.

  19. #219
    if it was on the player it would be to much like monk/paladin imo.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

    There's no reason to change it really.
    Exactly, move this to the feral druid forum!
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