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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    we're spinning in circles around homogenization [...], dev time [...], and various tangential discussions about the status of rogues in general.
    The debate predates the release of the game itself. What else did you expect?
    The conclusion is easy and we all know it: there's a system in place and we know how it operates; its weakness and strengths. There's a proposed change that could solve many minor issues that can also be solved in many other ways. If and when there's reason enough to change it, they'll consider it. If you pay some minor attention you know what are the reasons in favor and opposed to such a change (and you could do that by simply exploring the history of any wow forum).

    The kicker is: one side has the upper hand -those that like the current system-. Mainly because the system is already in place, has worked since like forever and we don't have any need to defend it (at best we decide to share why we enjoy it). The discussion can keep going as long as you keep that side entertained. So we can choose one of:
    1- Introduce yawn-inducing arguments (there are some posters actively doing this). So the side that doesn't care migrates and leaves the pro-change side agreeing with themselves. Propagating the false idea that a majority want change
    2- Make a collective effort in showing why we all like/enjoy some systems and have a nice conversation about it; perhaps figuring new ways to enjoy this or another mechanic/framework/system/whatever
    3- Fully bringing it back to the basics. Which is pointless, for the discussion is fully resolved: one side wants change, the other doesn't care. At this point I rather lock the thread.
    4- Fully bring it to the OP topic. Which is understanding 'why don't people want combo points on the player?'. And to do so, we need to take the approach nº2.

    Of those, there's only one way forward: ignore the topic and chat about tangential stuff. Because that's the only merit of this debate: that the system is close enough to the root and core design of the class and the understanding that different people have on it. If you actually want to discuss the basic topic, you're the one leading it full circle. But let me quote again GC:

    Yeah. I think at the high level, it's worth asking if keeping them on the target is the right design.
    We can try and pick it apart and decide whatever it means, like people do with everything the poor guy says. But there's a clear distinction when he chooses to use 'design'. That implies more than a binary choice: it encompasses more systems and frameworks that we need to figure out before deciding on which of the two options is better. The discussion is worth it. Because it tends to spawn new unexplored territory for many people. It's time we can take and learn a bit about designing a game instead of equaling our most immediate desires to good game design. Framing it as a pro-change/against-change approaches zero worth as the page count approaches infinity.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2013-09-03 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #302
    It's an aside, but I do get sick of how combo points are so super crappy that they break on half of the encounters on any raid. For whatever reason, a lot of mobs don't "die", so you'll get no benefit out of Marked for Death. A dead mob with 4 CPs on it you can redirect from, or just blow the CPs, but not if it "phases", which like, EVERYTHING does. Combo points are glitchy on Troll Council, Tortos, Maegara, Ji-Kun, Dark Animus, Twins, and maybe one of the heroics I haven't done. They COULD fix this. But honestly, these problems have been happening consistently since Lich King, so, no, they won't.

    The other thing is, we are asking for a BIG technical change. I'm asking for the biggest: I want a spec that offers multiple combo point targets, another spec offering them on the rogue, and one more acting like live. Holy crapballs! That means that the existing one has to be extended, and a whole second resource system created! Why, that's tantamount to what they've done for half the other classes in this game already!

    Sarcasm aside, it is a lot of work, and I think that's another part about their opinion on it. Even going the simpler route of just putting them on the rogue is a ton of new code for them.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    The debate predates the release of the game itself. What else did you expect?
    It's not a criticism of the discussion, but a means of grouping the general responses that we've seen and how the conversation has gone. If CP location were separable entirely from other arguments surrounding the rogue and game design I'd be happy to try to draw the 2 discussions into separate threads, but as you point out (primarily in previous posts) they are completely connected.

    That said, while you can analyze the history of the argument back to its basic and oldest roots (both in WoW and in the theory of game design), not everyone will be ready to meet you there, and re-capping the concept and recent arguments (or "pros and cons") can make the discussion a lot easier to follow for others, rather than quoting specific excerpts to respond to. Not trying to stem the discussion by any means!

  4. #304
    You think all three specs of rogues are fine on this? Sub doesn't have drama with this, but combat and mutilate do.
    Rogue specs aren't different enough to begin with. At least one of them needs to be completely redesigned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  5. #305
    Seems that this discussion is becoming more heated than it needs. Keep it down and don't battle between YAY and NAY.

    Anyway, if i have to be totally honest, i'm at the point that things like this are only small things compared to the entire picture - the rogue class needs hands put on it, from specs to talents to abilities to mechanics.

    Having combo points on the rogue will be surely a better mechanic than now, but just moving CPs from here to there and not changing how rogues actually works won't make anything good apart a better target switching. Even different systems as Verain proposed would work better because we won't end doing the same three things with any spec.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Having combo points on the rogue will be surely a better mechanic than now, but just moving CPs from here to there and not changing how rogues actually works won't make anything good apart a better target switching.
    Agreed, it wont change us in any serious way, beside we´ve already, for all intents and purpouses, had this with the Versatility Talent.
    CDless Redirect = CPs on rogue + 1 button push on switching (+all the situations where CPs vanish with dissipating mobs)

    And Versatility wasn´t removed due to it being stupid OP, or that it would require major re-balancing of the class, as has been suggested to be required by moving CPs to the rogue, several times earlier in this thread.
    Even though it made possible the "doomsday scenario" of a rogue putting a 5cp Kidney shot on a fresh target (As indeed Marked for Death also does)
    ...Similarly, while Anticipation proved very popular in the level 90 tier, Versatility did not, and in fact, Anticipation felt like it provided the benefits of Versatility, only better. We retired Versatility and added a new talent, Marked for Death...
    All in all, I think the move would iron out some kinks, mostly for leveling, but also make large AOE fights a bit smoother where even a 10 sec CD on redirect wont be enough, where all the mobs starts dying off one by one at the end, in quick succession.
    For normal switching in a fight, it´ll hardly change anything at all, except the need to push that redirect button once in a while.
    Last edited by Shenjin; 2013-09-04 at 10:45 AM.

  7. #307
    "Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points..."

    didn't richard knaak write that chapter already?

  8. #308
    I bet someone wrote a book where a rogue put combo points on Thrall and he reversed their polarity back at the rogue.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyjunky View Post
    DPS'ing one target and using deadly throw on the healer.
    Because that's not possible with redirect. Simply adjust cooldowns and balance around the new mechanic.

    Can anyone seriously come up with a logical explanation on why this would be bad for rogues?

    As if Blizzard wouldn't balance us around it, herp derp no they'll just leave everything the same so we can spam deadly throws and shit.

    PS: The homogenization argument is bullshit, just look at WoW now. I mean really.
    Last edited by Lazuli; 2013-09-05 at 09:39 AM.
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  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Because that's not possible with redirect. Simply adjust cooldowns and balance around the new mechanic.

    Can anyone seriously come up with a logical explanation on why this would be bad for rogues?

    As if Blizzard wouldn't balance us around it, herp derp no they'll just leave everything the same so we can spam deadly throws and shit.

    PS: The homogenization argument is bullshit, just look at WoW now. I mean really.
    Seeing how not much changed from when we had Versatility, which is basically the same as CP´s on the Rogue + one push of a CD-less Redirect.
    How much would they really need to balance?
    Maybe have a look at MfD as it replaced Versatility, due to it´s inability to compete with Anticipation and ST.

    Come 5.4, with a 10 sec glyphed RD and MfD, you can push a Deadly Throw 3 times in 11 sec, on a offtarget.
    Redirect CPs, Deadly Throw, MfD (even generates 5 fresh CPs), Deadly Throw, Redirect again off CD 10 sec later, Deadly Throw.
    Now if the target has died you can MfD again, or you have to wait 10 sec for RD.. or just Blind or KS on MT, Vanish + Shadow Step and CS offtarget..
    But at some point, you´re probably gonna want to use some CPs on your Main target aswell, so it´s probably not ideal to keep using all your CPs to spam DT on a off target.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    And like you say for the dumbing down part, there are sections sub 90 where the class even seem broken in dungeons without redirect.
    There are choices that will go away, such as wait to switch for one more mut plus envenom/rupture, when redirect is on cd.
    But if we get a 10 sec redirect, much of that becomes moot too, if you have the glyph.
    Perhaps those decisions should be about something else anyway, raided firelands as sub and it had much more going on than assassination, and it was fun.. kinda liked having to keep recoup rolling.
    ^This. The only argument I had for combo points remaining on the target was the interesting decision points. The only interesting decision we'll have now is to take the glyph or not. With all the changes to redirect I’m starting to lean more towards combo points being on the rogue since any difficulty with target/cp management has been pretty much taken out already and putting the points on the rogue would eliminate the current bugs in the mechanic (which is the true problem here).

    As far as homogenization; Chi, HoPo, and Runes work differently than CP's. Combo points are the only multi-use alternate resource system that improves consuming abilities by stacking more of the consumed resource. This is what truly gives rogues a unique feel.

    In response to those that say that the mechanic works fine now and always has, I flat out disagree. It was a nice mechanics before redirect, but anymore it fails in situations where targets don't truly die or when the add's body just kinda disappears. CP's are also very clunky in an AOE situation.

    I started out kinda middle of the road on this issue, but reviewing arguments from both sides of the discussion has made me a CP's on the Rogue believer.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    ^This. The only argument I had for combo points remaining on the target was the interesting decision points. The only interesting decision we'll have now is to take the glyph or not. With all the changes to redirect I’m starting to lean more towards combo points being on the rogue since any difficulty with target/cp management has been pretty much taken out already and putting the points on the rogue would eliminate the current bugs in the mechanic (which is the true problem here).

    As far as homogenization; Chi, HoPo, and Runes work differently than CP's. Combo points are the only multi-use alternate resource system that improves consuming abilities by stacking more of the consumed resource. This is what truly gives rogues a unique feel.

    In response to those that say that the mechanic works fine now and always has, I flat out disagree. It was a nice mechanics before redirect, but anymore it fails in situations where targets don't truly die or when the add's body just kinda disappears. CP's are also very clunky in an AOE situation.

    I started out kinda middle of the road on this issue, but reviewing arguments from both sides of the discussion has made me a CP's on the Rogue believer.
    Obviously Blizz sees that there is a problem with the old form of CP and as such they added redirect which didn't break the game. Versaility was bad compared to the others so even with an infinite redirect hardly anyone ever took it and those who did didn't break the game.

    Blizzard feels that redirect at a minute is too long so they introduced a glyph which I feel is them testing the waters for a bigger change and at 10 seconds honestly it takes around 10 seconds to even build 5 cp especially in PvP with the lack of haste on gear but even so redirect would be up relatively at the same time you generate 5 cp every time pretty much giving you the option of redirect every time you're at max CP.

    Blizzard has even said through blue posts that at this point in the game it's a worth taking a look at with is a 180 degree turn from their previous point of view.

    With the introduction of MfD once (or more with kills) a minute you can flat out open on a person with a 5 pt. evis/ks and that didn't break the game. MfD is awesome for soloing old content/questing and outside of raids is my go to talent and inside raids it's amazing for any add fight except when it bugs out and after a kill doesn't get reset. But it hasn't broken the game or made my dps go through the roof. On any multiple target swap fight (aka horridon) my dps still falls down so obviously with the ability to straight up open on someone that hasn't broken the game.

    As for everyone who has said that CP on the target is fine and asking for a change is now moot with the new redirect glyph their arguments have validity in a perfect world. With that glyph it becomes a pure QoL issue so that we don't have to press redirect a hundred times in a target swap fight. But to counter that argument is that it doesn't fix the problem of lost CP.

    Megaera, killing adds that their bodies despawn instantly, bosses that phase like how the twins down, primordius adds, things along these lines create a problem for Redirect. The way CP work now with them being tied to the body if that body disappears then so do the CP and their is then no way for them to be redirected to the new target because they simply don't exist anymore. If we got a gold for every CP lost to the twisting nether in the mail they way we get stuff from a dungeon that we left too fast for then rogues would be rich as hell and gold capping.

    People have suggested adding a buff to the player so that the CP is on the target and on a buff on the player so that even if the body despawns that we can still redirect CP to the new target. That's essentially putting CP on the rogue just with having the clunky mechanic of having to push redirect every 10 seconds in some situations so you effectively put CP on the rogue but just make us have to use redirect... I mean honestly at this point just put the CP on the rogue since a 10 second redirect makes this the same thing with managing a buff and an ability (which at this point is now pure bloat) all for the sake of being scared to just say add it to the rogue. This would be a different case if redirect was stuck at 1 minute long and then it would be a solution to the lost CP and being able to manage redirect effectively BUT with the new redirect glyph I feel that it'd have come to a point where it's just not needed anymore and even with the buff on the target in an aoe situation where you have 1 cp generated and then lost every other FoK then you still are dealing with a situation that's impossible to deal with and a huge pain in the ass for rogues.

  13. #313
    Why not just take Redirect off the GCD so we can macro it ?

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalistez View Post
    Why not just take Redirect off the GCD so we can macro it ?
    Why not put combo points on the rogue?

  15. #315
    One requires more work than the other.
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  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalistez View Post
    Why not just take Redirect off the GCD so we can macro it ?
    With a 10 second CD even off the GCD what would you macro it to? Would still need a separate button imo.

    As far as work to redesign it doesn't seem like too much would have to go into it. It's not like the addition of HP which required new spells and spell resource changing. The game play will not change at all, the resource system graphics are easy to move from one place to the other. And it just doesn't seem like that huge of a change over all.

  17. #317
    Its what makes them COMBO points.

    Raises skill cap on the mechanic.

    At a certain point, gameplay has to beat out QoL

  18. #318
    No matter what, as a rogue or feral druid, the enemy almost always has more points than you.
    "It's clear this is another bash Apple thread. Such things are not conducive to a good discussion."

    WRONG! Those are the BEST discussions!

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgomir View Post
    might have something to do with walking up to someone and dropping a 5 point Kidney Shot without any buildup
    So what, rebalance KS and the biggest obstacle is gone. I agree that CPs should never get lost, it's really clunky and I hated it with passion while playing rogue.

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  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyjunky View Post
    DPS'ing one target and using deadly throw on the healer.
    My reaction there would be so freakin what.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    And Versatility wasn´t removed due to it being stupid OP, or that it would require major re-balancing of the class, as has been suggested to be required by moving CPs to the rogue, several times earlier in this thread.
    Even though it made possible the "doomsday scenario" of a rogue putting a 5cp Kidney shot on a fresh target (As indeed Marked for Death also does)
    God forbid we can stun someone just by pressing our stun button, like every other stun in the game.

    Ironically it was removed because nobody chose it IIRC :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brodeo View Post
    Its what makes them COMBO points.

    Raises skill cap on the mechanic.

    At a certain point, gameplay has to beat out QoL
    Yeah, it's not at this point. Skill cap on using CPs that you have to press a button to redirect? Damn near zero.

    I wish people wouldn't try to use "skill cap" to defend mechanics that require little to no skill and are simply shitty and/or outdated.
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