Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
12
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgomir View Post
    might have something to do with walking up to someone and dropping a 5 point Kidney Shot without any buildup
    Not a valid argument, as I can use Marked for Death & do just that now…

  2. #22
    What do you guys think about having them on the target, but not losing them when you put points in another target? That way you can't change target and stun the new target, but you still can dps a new target for a few time and then get back to your old target that stills has the points that you had on him.

  3. #23
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    England
    Posts
    143
    @FenrisUy, this is an interesting concept, but i can imagine it becoming very clunky with multiple targets and frequent target switching. If there were easy ways around that, then i could see it being a potential option.

  4. #24
    however much i dislike the system, its the nature of the beast im afraid. If you want to play rogue, you have to learn how to work around it.
    having the glyph on ptr was urnbelieveably good (unfortunately nerfed) and id rather have no cd redirect than CP on the rogue.

    combos are supposed to be chained attacks that make a more powerful one, and the flavour of the class is lost when you can just swap your combo onto another class freely! Sometimes people (including me) forget this is also supposed to be a game, and not just a simulation of numbers and efficiency.

  5. #25
    Simple, move it onto the player and the derping player will be doing better dps than the one who actually knows their class. If it weren't for the Redirect, I would see this as being a proper discussion but it is more like, I can't derp my way around like x class does, so please let me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawmerax View Post
    however much i dislike the system, its the nature of the beast im afraid. If you want to play rogue, you have to learn how to work around it.
    having the glyph on ptr was urnbelieveably good (unfortunately nerfed) and id rather have no cd redirect than CP on the rogue.

    combos are supposed to be chained attacks that make a more powerful one, and the flavour of the class is lost when yxou can just swap your combo onto another class freely! Sometimes people (including me) forget this is also supposed to be a game, and not just a simulation of numbers and efficiency.
    Beaten to it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by FenrisUy View Post
    What do you guys think about having them on the target, but not losing them when you put points in another target? That way you can't change target and stun the new target, but you still can dps a new target for a few time and then get back to your old target that stills has the points that you had on him.
    Just another bandage/hack, and not really a good one…

    Almost every time you are attacking something, you are planning on killing it & THEN moving on to another target…

    And as I stated previously, Marked for Death lets you use full 5-CP abilities right now…

    And as Linneth stated, Redirect also allows the same behavior; albeit with the added trouble of USING Redirect (and HOPING it does not 'misplace' the CPs somewhere along the way)…

    I am now beginning to wonder how many of the posters here who argue for keeping CPs on the mobs an non-Rogues… I have a sneaking suspicion that the NaySayers are PvP folk who are scared shitless at the idea of Rogues carrying extra unused CPs over to their next victim in assorted PvP environments…

    Take off the Reality Distortion Goggles folks, if Blizz REALLY thought CPs (aka RESOURCES…) on the mob was such a great idea, how come the vast majority of classes have their resources on the toon…?!? It seems clear enough that the 'Resource on the Mob' way of doing things is an old wore out mechanism & Blizz just needs to take the trouble to fix it on Rogues (and Feral Druids)…

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawmerax View Post
    however much i dislike the system, its the nature of the beast im afraid. If you want to play rogue, you have to learn how to work around it.
    having the glyph on ptr was urnbelieveably good (unfortunately nerfed) and id rather have no cd redirect than CP on the rogue.

    combos are supposed to be chained attacks that make a more powerful one, and the flavour of the class is lost when you can just swap your combo onto another class freely! Sometimes people (including me) forget this is also supposed to be a game, and not just a simulation of numbers and efficiency.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Simple, move it onto the player and the derping player will be doing better dps than the one who actually knows their class. If it weren't for the Redirect, I would see this as being a proper discussion but it is more like, I can't derp my way around like x class does, so please let me.

    Beaten to it.
    No & No…!!!

    See my post above, Blizz is just plain lazy on this regard…!!!

  7. #27
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    331
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Simple, move it onto the player and the derping player will be doing better dps than the one who actually knows their class. If it weren't for the Redirect, I would see this as being a proper discussion but it is more like, I can't derp my way around like x class does, so please let me.
    It has more to do about Combo Points themselves derping with Anticipation + AoE and Redirect not working well on many boss mechanics.

    Let's imagine come 6.0 Blizzard decides to put Combo Points on the Rogue. At the same time, they remove any RNG free combo points, making the amount of Combo Points generated by an ability a fixed amount. They also change how Eviscerate works, adding a DoT component similar to Rupture when used at 4 or 5 Combo Points (the duration of the DoT increases if used with 5 instead of 4 Combo Points). The direct damage component of Eviscerate caps at 3 Combo Points. If you use another 4p or 5p Eviscerate you'll lose the damage from the previous DoT if it's still rolling.

    Thinking on the mechanic above, answer this:

    - Are the "new" Combo Points the same thing as Chi or Holy Power?
    - Would you use Combo Points the same way when focusing an add no matter how much health it has?
    - Would this dynamic cost Combo System be less unique than current target-bound Combo System?

  8. #28
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    England
    Posts
    143
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Simple, move it onto the player and the derping player will be doing better dps than the one who actually knows their class.
    I understand entirely, but I have to disagree with this from a strictly PVE perspective. Being able to flexibly switch back and forth between targets encourages more adventurous gameplay and rotations (multi-rupturing for one of the most basic examples). Any braindead player can sit on 1-2 targets for the entirety on an encounter and do average -> good DPS. Sure, having limitations separates bad players from good players, but when we already have multiple forms of limitations CP doesn't need, and shouldn't be, one of them.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Because then rogues will be like monks, paladins and to a certain extend warlocks.

    I like my combo points on the target.
    this comment its like saying i like cake because its a cake

    no real explanetion to why you think rogues would be like monks since monks are designed after ROGUES and not otherwise monks = what rogues should have been with MoP
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine since 2004

  10. #30
    Combo points might be an old mechanics but it's a good one, just like energy.

    I believe that in a single-target environment, CPs work just fine. Even with rule-breaking abilities such as Redirect, Marked for Death or Anticipation. It's AoE where they become problematic, it does indeed feel somewhat clunky when trying to spam FoK and finish with Crimson Tempest. But I believe that instead of messing with rogue core mechanics, they should rather completely redesign the AoE itself. Combat is already doing pretty well just with Blade Flurry, so now they just need to do something with Assassination and Subtlety.
    Last edited by Fae; 2013-08-17 at 08:54 PM.

  11. #31
    Look at paladins/dks who have a ranged stun that has no build up just a stun. Warriors can charge stun not as long but it's still a really strong interrupt. And opening with a kidney shot... eh I'd rather open with cheapshot/garrote build up and then use kidney shot the way it is now. And with marked for death you can do that anyways. Every reason why starting with 5 cp being bad is already out there in a stronger form and hasn't broken the game. Paladins can target swap guns blazing and blow someones face off. Warlocks can get 4 burning embers and chaos bolt for a billion damage. Envenom and evis do a lot of damage but nothing game breaking. Especially in pvp with the super damage nerfs they don't hit for too hard compared to other abilities.

    As far as building combo points to do a finisher it doesn't have to be one target. Think of the standard action video game where you do various combos do lead up to a big damage ability. Doesn't matter where it finishes as long as you build up for it. From an RP stand point rogues don't even do proper combos compared to most games out there. Rogues "combos" have all the grace of punch/punch/punch/PUNCHKICK COMBO. The fact that you can build up 5 combo points and then save them rather than "finish the combo" is such a horribly designed game play that it makes me sad. Age of Conan was an absolutely horrible game but their combo system made so much more sense where you for example do a unique attack then build on that then build on that then finish it. Just think of a real life example. Say you punch a person in the face with your right hand. Then you punch a person in the face with your left hand and then you "finish" by kicking them in the chest you effectively have a combination of attacks. But if you punch them twice and then stand around for awhile before kicking them then it's no longer a combination. If anything it'd make more sense to take away combo points completely and just resigned abilities to actually be a combination of abilities chained together.

    But I digress. The fact that rogues don't actually do combinations of attacks means that having the combo points on the target don't really make sense.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.
    I lol'd.

    With new Redirect I see no problem with Combo Points on target.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I lol'd.

    With new Redirect I see no problem with Combo Points on target.
    Except for the fact that you have to take an extra step to move your unused Cps from one mob to another, while the vast majority of the other classes do not have to shuffle around their resources this way…

    COMBO POINTS ON THE ROGUE, NOT THE MOB…!!! FIX IT BLIZZ…!!!

  14. #34
    because in any fighting game ever created the term combo meant multiple hits on the target.

    I could already see the impact this would have PVP wise as multiple rogues could stack their combo points on a "tanky" target hit their CC abilities and practically global the healer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boil View Post
    Except for the fact that you have to take an extra step to move your unused Cps from one mob to another, while the vast majority of the other classes do not have to shuffle around their resources this way…

    COMBO POINTS ON THE ROGUE, NOT THE MOB…!!! FIX IT BLIZZ…!!!
    except any class that has to swap stances... they lose most their rune power/rage/etc
    ...Made it through 9 years of wow...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post
    except any class that has to swap stances... they lose most their rune power/rage/etc
    I can count on one hand how many classes actively stance dance in PvE at least.... THAT'S RIGHT NONE!

  16. #36
    I think combo points on the target would make a lot of sense and be cool... if finishers actually did any damage CLOSE to making that system worth it. But unfortunately the devs are so scared of breaking PVP balance with burst in a PVE game that we'll never have finishers like they were in Classic and, to a lesser extent, TBC. For that reason they might as well have combo points on the Rogue in my opinion.

    Just to spur dicussion though, when I say making finishers worthy of the combo point system, that means finishers would indeed do high damage (let's say over double damage compared to now), but the combo generators would have to do far less damage so that they'd be balanced in PVE. Would this be a more engaging, interesting style of gameplay? I wonder if people would actually liike this.

    I'm not even sure if I would even though I'm advocating for it. I know as a Windwalker I love Rising Sun Kick's high damage (~420% weapon damage) even though Jab hits for ~45% weapon damage, but that is different than building 5 combo points. Btw, those numbers are merely what I came up with while levelling with 2H weapons for the sake of having relative numbers for reference. I know the actual damage formula is much more complicated.
    Last edited by Senka; 2013-08-17 at 09:51 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post
    because in any fighting game ever created the term combo meant multiple hits on the target.

    I could already see the impact this would have PVP wise as multiple rogues could stack their combo points on a "tanky" target hit their CC abilities and practically global the healer.

    - - - Updated - - -



    except any class that has to swap stances... they lose most their rune power/rage/etc
    Totally wrong dude. Combo is a combination of attacks chained together. If by fighting game you refer to a game such as the Street Fighter franchise then you are correct... but that's just because there's only one person you're fighting. In any action 3rd person game where you don't actually target anything you just do an ability and it hits what's in front of you you very well do have the ability to swap target and go through the combination of abilities and then about face and use your finisher on a completely new enemy.

    Rogues in fact don't actually do any combination of abilities. You can very well hold onto a finisher for whatever reason indefinitely and spam sinister strike forever before using your finisher. That's a completely different topic all together though and could be a way to change up rogue game play.

    But as far as the current iteration of rogues there's no reason game play wise, burst wise, balance wise or even RP wise that should force rogues to have cp on target. I mean shit if you're going for an RP sense that this is a rogue using a combination of attacks on a single target and then finishing it off then wtf is redirect? Redirect from an RP sense makes 0 sense what so ever. Everything else in the game actually has a rhyme and a reason to it. Most actions can be duplicated into some sort of movement or action. But well... what does redirect do? Things like tricks of the trade is like tapping a dude on the shoulder and making him think it was the other guy so he punches him in the face and you LoL. Or Feint I associate with like jumping out of the way/do a barrel roll. But what is redirect?

  18. #38
    I think the roleplay side of Redirect is that you change your focus to a new enemy. Think of Rogue attacks as "focusing" on an enemy. The more you focus on them, the more weaknesses you see to exploit, and that's why a combo finisher is supposed to be powerful? I agree the explanation's weak, but I think that's the idea behind Redirect.

    But yeah, unless they redesign Rogue's damage output, combo points being locked to target just seems terrible in modern day WoW. Then again, a LOT of their damage output comes from just auto-attack, so it's not the end of the world that they're locked, just frustrating. I know finishers do pump up that auto attack damage, but I think it's lame for finishers to just be support instead of a really flashy, cool, powerful attack.
    Last edited by Senka; 2013-08-17 at 09:58 PM.

  19. #39
    Much like you can't find *good* arguments for stacking on the target, I'm yet to find any good one for them stacking on the rogue.

    -It's small changes like that one that led to our 3 specs being so close game-play-wise. Stacking cps on the rogue might not make the sky fall, but it contributes -heavily- to class homogeniezation.
    -Like it or not, playing a game is not an exercise on efficiency; obstacles are a -very big- part of what makes a game compelling.
    -Having to think in advance how/when to spend cps is part of the current design; if you lost some cps, you didn't plan ahead.
    -They serve as a way to granulate and differenciate rogues: if you can't deal with this, you might be a decent rogue, just not an excelent one.
    -Offering flexibility -redirect- does not imply the mechanic is meaningless. It's meaningful enough to have people still discussing it, go figure.
    -Not changing something does not mean developers are lazy. If anything, it's very much the other way around, given the amount of stuff they need to implement to support a niche mechanic.
    -Not changing something does not mean developers are stubborn: framing the issue this way really makes very little for your argument.
    -But they let hunter ammunition go: they also took away poisons, so?: head-start bloat is another issue.
    -But other classes work differently: yeah, they're different, so?
    -It's dated: this word lost meaning 8 or so years ago.
    -But other games...: the population of wow rogues alone is higher than the total pop of several of those games together.
    -But I do desire they changed it: having you whish stuff is what makes a game, well, a game.
    -But the majority want change: yeah, designing anything (games, architecture, chairs) is not a democracy. And it's probably not true anyway.

    See, the only reasons to prune mechanics like this is if:
    1- the mechanic does no longer provide meaningful enough play (the ghostly strike paradigm)
    If you push this one, I really have little to say: maybe rogue is not for you. Or maybe you need to learn how to play around it: it's a completely avoidable obstacle.

    2- the obstacle has turned into an annoyance (the brewing your own poisons paradigm)
    This is a very real issue. Current buggy mechanics do really offer very little room to work around the mechanic. Arguing in a QOL frame sounds very reasonable to me. But thinking that stacking cps in the rogue is the *only* solution is unimaginative. They can fix the bugginess with redirect and corpses; or fix the bugginess whith fok and corpses; they can even revert us back to when cps on corpses vanished.

    Ultimately, it's simply rooted enough in the class for it to mean something. If chi orholy power stack on the player, that's because they're newer implementations, much more streamlined; which is the same as to say: they are in fact less refined, less thought out mechanics. They've worked on rogue finishers to function like this for years because they think it adds flavor and meaning to the class; or it makes your decision makign deeper; or all of that together. If you don't like it, that's fine: I don't like everything either (I could use some changing of our class-yelow); but I'm able to understand that some people like what I don't.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Much like you can't find *good* arguments for stacking on the target, I'm yet to find any good one for them stacking on the rogue.

    -It's small changes like that one that led to our 3 specs being so close game-play-wise. Stacking cps on the rogue might not make the sky fall, but it contributes -heavily- to class homogeniezation.
    -Like it or not, playing a game is not an exercise on efficiency; obstacles are a -very big- part of what makes a game compelling.
    -Having to think in advance how/when to spend cps is part of the current design; if you lost some cps, you didn't plan ahead.
    -They serve as a way to granulate and differenciate rogues: if you can't deal with this, you might be a decent rogue, just not an excelent one.
    -Offering flexibility -redirect- does not imply the mechanic is meaningless. It's meaningful enough to have people still discussing it, go figure.
    -Not changing something does not mean developers are lazy. If anything, it's very much the other way around, given the amount of stuff they need to implement to support a niche mechanic.
    -Not changing something does not mean developers are stubborn: framing the issue this way really makes very little for your argument.
    -But they let hunter ammunition go: they also took away poisons, so?: head-start bloat is another issue.
    -But other classes work differently: yeah, they're different, so?
    -It's dated: this word lost meaning 8 or so years ago.
    -But other games...: the population of wow rogues alone is higher than the total pop of several of those games together.
    -But I do desire they changed it: having you whish stuff is what makes a game, well, a game.
    -But the majority want change: yeah, designing anything (games, architecture, chairs) is not a democracy. And it's probably not true anyway.

    See, the only reasons to prune mechanics like this is if:
    1- the mechanic does no longer provide meaningful enough play (the ghostly strike paradigm)
    If you push this one, I really have little to say: maybe rogue is not for you. Or maybe you need to learn how to play around it: it's a completely avoidable obstacle.

    2- the obstacle has turned into an annoyance (the brewing your own poisons paradigm)
    This is a very real issue. Current buggy mechanics do really offer very little room to work around the mechanic. Arguing in a QOL frame sounds very reasonable to me. But thinking that stacking cps in the rogue is the *only* solution is unimaginative. They can fix the bugginess with redirect and corpses; or fix the bugginess whith fok and corpses; they can even revert us back to when cps on corpses vanished.

    Ultimately, it's simply rooted enough in the class for it to mean something. If chi orholy power stack on the player, that's because they're newer implementations, much more streamlined; which is the same as to say: they are in fact less refined, less thought out mechanics. They've worked on rogue finishers to function like this for years because they think it adds flavor and meaning to the class; or it makes your decision makign deeper; or all of that together. If you don't like it, that's fine: I don't like everything either (I could use some changing of our class-yelow); but I'm able to understand that some people like what I don't.
    -not vaild since you guys argue about traps and tanks specs >_>
    -not valid there are ppl who take gaming seriously and make money with it
    -not valid you simply cant think the whole fight through your head becasuse some raid leaders or groups tend to do things on the fly
    -is that even an argument ? did i miss something all rogue specs use CP how is that diffenciate rogues and how does that make me an excellent rogue ?
    -the truth shows us how well classes are doing with their recourses tied to them
    -well the flexibility you talk about is non existent you cant choose its either stay on target or lose CP and you know thats a dps loss
    -niche mechanic ? the last time we had a niche it resulted in an combat nerf and 90% of the rogues stopped playing it
    -poisons did not diasappear they still exist they lost their physical form to free up our spaces hunters ammo dissapeared it doesnt increase their damage like it used to do
    -how is that an argument you ran out of ideas ?
    -in other games i tried some of them it works better and more fluid thats a fact not made up since wow is stealing ideas from other game too why not such things ?
    -......... are you realy arguing here or just talk about ponys and rainbows ?
    -the majority wants it because it makes sense and would improve the QOL of all rogues by 100% imagine a world where you beat megaera without losing any cps you build up in one of her heads ? or where target switching might be fun to instead of moaning and saying damn dude i dont want to switch im losing 10% of my damage if i do so

    guess what rogue population is dropping its at an all time low we need to be brought back on par with othoter classes we need this update our class didnt change for years we as a class are old and old things tend to break over time and we reached the state where boss mechanics become more complex and broken stuff is unavoidable like meagera even IF we had redirect with no cd cps would still disappear
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine since 2004

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •