They need to make it were if you switch the target your other combo points do not go away.
They need to make it were if you switch the target your other combo points do not go away.
Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose
Well, for a long time I thought we should keep combo points on the target.
But after seeing what happened with Warlocks, I've decided that at least one spec should have combo points on the rogue.
I'll give my reasoning for combo points, by the way:
1)- I feel that the devs give consideration to our resource system. One of the disadvantages of being a rogue seems to be the harsher target swap. This applies to ferals as well, as they copy that feature. The devs clearly aim us at being the top single target damage spec, with varying amounts of success. Part of this is because we are the only pure melee, part of this is because we are "selfish" and bring the least raid utility, but part of that is because our entire conceptual nature is based around fucking up one target.
2)- It's good that resource systems have disadvantages. Ours has a few, and there are ways to work around and with them. I actually think that the other resource systems actually are "too good". For instance, I can't kick a monk and make him lose chi, and there's no way to, even temporarily, devalue the runic recovery on a death knight. Only rage and energy actually interact much, and not even like they did historically. I used to be able to deny a warrior energy with evasion, or deny a rogue energy with controls and kiting. Energy destruction still works to a degree, but it barely matters, and rage denial has mostly gone away. But the newer classes don't even have these mild disadvantages. Our disadvantages make sense with our kit, I feel- and I would rather nerf or make interactive the others, rather than just make CPs on the rogue.
3)- Combo points actually represent the ability of the rogue to analyze and compromise the opponent. I don't understand how crimson tempest works with that, or recuperate, and would prefer that they not use that method if possible, and instead have a different triggering method or resource. Putting them on the rogue lacks some of that flavor. I'd like to see that flavor enhance- the runic power of a death knight is inside him, but his runes are on his sword- he should probably not HAVE his runes when disarmed (aka, a disarmed death knight should not be able to howling blast or blood boil- he should lack his resource until his weapon is restored).
The only really good argument against these things is gameplay. I think that the devs can give us good gameplay without this being a limit, but it's been iffy at times. Fan of Knives is really shit, blade flurry was nerfed to be shit (when there ARE that many mobs, you are now trying to pick the one that will survive long enough to build combo points on, while standing in a spot that fans out from him to the others, and all of it for way less reward than the c-lit spamming shaman), and crimson tempest simply needs to be a bigger fucking hit for all specs- even sub. These are currently how we deal with mobs, and they feel really shitty.
If combo points were on the combat rogue, then you would feel a lot less stupid running around with blade flurry. The spec would literally be about twice as good under the situations where it matters. Back before they decided to fuck this spec with an electric dick eating fish, I really liked add fights as combat. I would hit fan of knives and autoattack mostly, and only sinister to make sure I could keep up slice and dice. Fan of Knives was the only aoe we needed, and it hit with both weapons, hard. As you might expect out of an area attack, it DID NOT FUCK WITH COMBO POINTS AT ALL, since combo points represent EXPLOITATION OF A SINGLE TARGET. It makes no sense for our aoe to be tied to this- if combo points are just a resource we build to finish in all modes, then they should be on the rogue. It also cost a lot of energy- like 50- making the timing of it important, and also making it totally viable to spam during adrenaline rush for legitimate burst aoe. With it at 35, spamming it makes no goddamned sense under almost any situation. We also had the same poison boost as combat that we currently have only as mutilate (this was pre-mastery), so the dot was not trivial as it is on live.
If we are going to get combo points for doing things that don't represent exploiting a target (such as fan of knives, and the confusing honor among thieves), then we shouldn't have the same limitations as we used to.
I was really looking forward to having no cooldown on redirect in the patch. Versatility, when we had it, was generally shit, because it represented a pretty significant single target dps loss. Combat is particularly unplayable without anticipation, having become way crazier than it ever used to be, and of course mutilate benefits very strongly from being able to bank combo points, so versatility felt like a huge loss. I'm sure that wasn't the intention- when they gave us these things, all were meant to break the rules on combo points, and they probably didn't realize how rogues would immediately and permanently want that bank under almost all circumstances, given that we hadn't had it ever. The reason is because, quite honestly, our moves generate variable combo points, so even if we don't want to bank up double finishers for use during red, or the tail end of a blades of renataki, we still don't want to be at three combo points, mutilate, and lose a CP, or four combo points and finish because the lost CPs would be unacceptable. Rogues should have had the ability to bank a sixth combo point starting in about Ulduar if they were paying attention, and no later than Cata otherwise. Banking up to ten is fine for a talent.
In any event, the actual power of versatility is by no means bad- it was quite strong to be able to tab to a new add, and press a button that meant "begin attacking and redirect", followed by a finisher or a builder next global. If an add died with 4 combo points you didn't give a shit- you simply pressed the button on the NEXT add and finished, etc.
There's PLENTY of places where the ability to swap, kill, and swap back would be great, and none of our specs can do this. Post 5.4, combat will almost have this- you'll be able to swap to an add, redirect, revealing strike, and as long as you are on it a couple seconds and finish, your 10 second cooldown will be eliminated by a couple seconds of time and restless blades (which the devs may have forgotten affects this). Of course, combat is the dumbest spec in general for this, and it used to be one of the most fun in the game, because even after having the AQ scarab buff tuned to the rogue, we still have to smack a revealing strike on literally everything we intend to finishing move on.
Anyway, I'd like to see one rogue spec have the combo points on the player. Further than that- I'd like to see one rogue spec generally have everything it needs on the rogue. We have THREE fucking specs. We shouldn't just feel like different tweaks of the same spec, and in some few ways, sometimes, we do.
It makes no sense that your blows to one specific enemy have any effect on your own personal performance.
Anyone can make up a random bit of flavour text. That's why it has no bearing on a discussion regarding a simple game mechanic.
Also ret. Also shadow. And to a lesser degree, two of the warlock resources are similar-ish. Kinda.
But ain't nobody besides us and ferals spending 8 seconds of resources building up power on a mob that gets globalled by some chaos bolt.
I think it's silly that we have to try to focus on mobs with HIGH health in all specs. I mean, given that a dead mob does no damage, it took marked for death for us to actually start looking for weak enemies to finish off, and actually be a team player.
You thought the leaden winter would bring you down forever, But you rode upon a steamer to the violence of the sun...
And you see a girl's brown body dancing through the turquoise, And her footprints make you follow where the sky loves the sea.
And when your fingers find her, she drowns you in her body, Carving deep blue ripples in the tissues of your mind.
I believe it's to maintain a sense of ramp-up for rogues in PvP. Redirect has a cooldown, and that in turn acts as a throttle and tell for hard swaps. It's the same reason that most classes need to set up appropriate debuffs on an enemy target before doing their full damage. People love to compare 1:1 but they forget the class mechanics as a whole, and it's very easy to miss important aspects of the big picture when they're not readily apparent. Combo points are by no means a perfect system, but they certainly do have a mechanical purpose which is difficult to ignore. Rogues aren't the only class with a ramp-up process, and it's just absurd to argue that they are.
Combo Points are inherently different from Chi/Holy Power, not because one is on the target and the others are on the user but because the latter are used purely for damage or healing and the former is also used for utility. While there is a little truth to statements such as "10 seconds in so short anyway", "We can do that with Redirect already" and "We can do that with Marked for Death already" there is still a huge difference between doing whatever you want whenever you want on the fly and spending first one global on Redirect (or a 1 min CD) and then another on Deadly Throw/Kidney Shot.
Personally I like how combo points work and, frankly, I don't think the redirect glyph is a good design decision.
Do I enjoy playing with a handicap? Actually, yes, to some extent I do. If something adds another dimension to a spec/class without being purely obnoxious then I'll probably like it. The current incarnation of combo points is definitely not at that point.
I've never denied the argument to be had is QOL. But there are issues when solving QOL problems too. Rogue, albeit in much more subtle ways, has been streamlined all through the expansions. To a point where spec differenciation has been eventually eroded: enough at least for devs to comment on it. Class homogeneization is much the same issue: if you streamline and equalize everything, eventually every class will look the same. It's not the only issue, or the main one but it is one. Solving QOL issues is necesary, yes; but if you risk homogeneization, maybe you need to look elsewhere first.How? How does it do this? It's a purely quality of life change. Whether the combo points are on the Rogue or on the target, it already draws heavy comparisons with the mechanics given to other classes. Blizzard has refined their systems over the years, and given the benefits of their game design to other classes. Why not Rogues?
how is it artificial? are the other implementations natural? QOL again, ok.Yes, and artificial obstacles based on something that frustrates players is not a good one.
Thinking is added hindrance? there's no adjusting in other classes: their CPs are as shallow as it can get (and not only on the way they stack).Why? Why does the Rogue and Feral Druids have this added hindrance? It's not "fun" to have comb points vanish for no good reason other than a simple mistake. Other classes have the ability to adjust, why not Rogues?
I don't like redirect either. But it's not patching or solving anything when there wasn't a problem to begin with. The only issue at that time were the bugs that came with CPs on corpses.No, it means it's a patch to a problem, and not a true solution.
If you don't say that, it wasn't adressed to you?I would never say that developers are lazy. But other classes *have* had much more massive changes than this...
Again, I would never say that. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't continue to stress the issue.And we get mechanics changed all the time. I'm not implying that you don't get to change just for being a rogue: simply that different classes have different issues and different changes.Hunters and minimum range, Shamans and totems, Warlocks and Soul Shards, Paladins and Seal/Judge, Warriors and stance dancing, etc... All were simple quality of life changes. Made to make the class more fun. Rogues deserve the same.
And other classes have had their mechanics changed.
and recent mechanics that are subpar are changed too. Being dated is not an argument; being sub-par is; now let's get to the sub-par part of it: QOL again?Is there even a point here? Dated mechanics that are sub par have been changed.
Based solely on game population I'll tell you in a heartbeat that changes are not the answer to that.Two points: 1) Take a look at the current Rogue population and tell me changes aren't needed.
All the time: first they check those ideas are good; so far CPs on the rogue doesn't really seem like the deciding factor. Many people like them on the rogue, many people like it on the target.2) And how many times has Blizzard borrowed better ideas from other games?
The warlock revamp apparently did very little for warlock population -aside from completely alienating some old timers off the game-. Change is not the answer to low population.Look at the declining Rogue population. Now look at the population of other classes, including the now revamped Warlock, which received a lot of attention. It's not a democracy, for sure, but Blizzard needs to pay attention to the demographics here.
Because games revolve about offering you an obstacle to overcome. I dare say everything is an obstacle. The higher they are, the bigger the reward. I get that you don't particularly enjoy this obstacle; but not everyone will like the same obstacles.But. Why. Does. It. Need. To. Be. An. Obstacle. At. All?
It's asking for tons of human resources for little to no reward: ala warlock.I agree that it shouldn't be the only solution. I would say it's probably the easiest solution, but it's also the dullest to be honest. I would much rather see a revamp of class mechanics along the lines of the Warlock so that each spec plays and feels different, but that's probably asking for too much.
Just recently we got fairly respected posters on these forums arguing that damage poisons could be deleted. So, yeah, some people think differently than you, or me, or any other human being.I simply don't agree. It isn't any sort of meaningful part of Rogue design. Stealth, attacking from shadows, poison? Sure, these are Rogue staples that seem to be a key part of a WoW Rogue. Combo points that build on the Rogue as opposed to the enemy? Hardly. It's a mechanic, not a flavour feature. Where the combo points are built doesn't affect the flavour of the class in the least. It's purely a quality of life issue, and a symptom of the lack of attention the class has gotten since vanilla.
So I'll simply disagree with you: what you're describing delivers on fantasy; CPs don't do that. But there are *many* other comon themes of rogue desing in wow; particularly timing seems to be a big thing. 8 years ago we described rogue cycles as: trivial to figure what's next, crucial to time it right. Rogues think ahead: they solve problems before they appear. CPs on the target reinforce that concept: you need to figure a way to dump them before you switch.
It's nice that you frame everything as 'I don't see this; but it's a QOL issue so solving that must go first'. For some players, that bit of a mechanic goes much deeper than their QOL issues; those are real players, with real concerns, and they like mechanics that you don't. It really boils down to that. You can choose to understand them or not. Playing a game is not an exercise of efficiency; neither is it a system with 100% certainty. If you take away CPs on target, you risk taking away many things people like; things that you personaly don't value, I get that. But you only get one thing in return: QOL. But that QOL, as you seem to agree, can be solved in different ways, so I'd rather first explore those.
As to your final bit: 'rogues are neglected'. Is it hard to imagine we didn't need that many changes bacause we were better designed inthe first place? do you really think devs simply don't like your class or think people that play it don't matter? I'm inclined to believe you've simply played it for too long -and so have I-. I would personaly love it if they changed the class upside down, yes; but only because I've been doing the same thing for 8 years. The average player doesn't play for that long: the game is no designed around you or me, but on that average player, and rogue design, imho, ranges from good to excelent already for them -compared to other classes at least-. When I discuss stuff about rogues, I try to make a better game, not a game I personaly like better. If people don't take that approach we'll keep seeing silly arguments about deleting the whole combat spec.
Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-18 at 03:15 AM.
I hope they finally move CP to the system HP and Chi use, HP and Chi are what CP probably should have been way back when, as what are Chi and HP but basically a copy of CP, but with the points tracked on them instead of the target. Target swapping is a bitch, even with free Redirect next patch that's still another button you have to bind and remember to use compared to the other two that keep their CP on themselves.
I enjoyed the wrath implementation of fok. I agree something is off in current aoe. But I wouldn't frame it as a CP issue. I don't think CPs are necesarily a single target thing: historicaly yes, thematicaly not so much. I believe we can have meaningful and interesting aoe with the tools we have:
Seeing how OP anticipation is compared to the other options, it wouldn't surprise me if they made it baseline -with lower charges- and have the talent increase charges and/or duration of the buff. With that you can have fok stack anticipation instead of cps and crimson an anticipation exclusive finisher; you can balance aoe without meshing with your single target cycle (just a cheap idea, but it goes to show how current spells can actually work towards your ideal).
It's pretty cool to see someone arguing for CPs on rogue, but leaving room to the other option somewhere. If it was me, I'd have it as a pve-only thing in a tier set or trinket. It's a major design decision, so that kind of testing could be useful: much like the legendary daggers finisher-back-to-back seem to be what spawned anticipation (and shadow blades).
Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-18 at 03:59 AM.
That's not any kind of bias. We have a pretty big problem on some adds where we will be doing our job, and someone will come along with an overkill huge hit (such as chaos bolt). This destroys our resources. The lock could have (and should have) been aiming that bolt at a different target to maximize raid dps in my example- and for that matter, to minimize mob lifetime. But he had NO WAY of knowing where I was in my rotation.
For this reason, the combo point mechanic forces me to go fuck with some high health mob in order to build up to a finisher and deal damage. Marked for Death really helps with this- the first mechanic in game that lets us work WITH the raid's other dps rather than against it to maximize total raid dps AND also minimize mob life. Combo points are very punishing on this note.
I'm not saying CPs are a terrible resource. But we should have one spec with them on us. Warlocks and mages have pretty different resources in each of their specs, for instance.
- - - Updated - - -
Anyway- if combo points were put on the rogue for all three specs (and presumably also for cats), I'm betting that the class would be tuned lower (and so would feral). And I don't want that. The devs absolutely grant us consideration for our Victorian-era ankle-fetish resource system. Which is why I wouldn't mind seeing one of our specs with the CPs on the rogue- it's likely that even if that was tuned a wee bit lower on a Patchwerk, you would still see rogues playing it and getting good mileage out of it on the content that rewards it. I'm of the opinion that combat above all could use that, but I would also find some way to ditch revealing strike too, and I doubt the devs are willing to part with that relatively silly button. I disagree with the direction they went for combat in general, and I've had a bad time trying to optimize it. I was initially very excited for bandit's guile, but the anti-synergy between BG and Restless Blades eliminates any of the depth that BG could have brought. I hesitate to say "their vision for combat is confused", but I'm kinda convinced of it. For a spec that I had a blast with for so long, I just don't get it- but that's a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say, I think that if we keep BG (and it's potentially the deeper mechanic), we should lose restless blades, and we should get BG on the UI. Without Bandit's Guile Helper addon, we can't even see if we are in green 1 or green 3 for planning purposes, and all we have is a dumb buff up in the wiggledy-buff-box. Just seems odd.
Anyway, combat mini-rant off, sorry, don't want to derail.
It could be really interesting but I like the play that redirect brings.
LOTRO Wardens have 3 combo builders and a generic finisher skill. They build combos of red, green and yellow builders and the order they build them creates a different finisher. They start out with 3 point combos and work all the way up to 7, which is part of where the flaw is with that class (taking forever to build a combo at higher levels for stronger finishers).
How would I do this with WOW Rogues? Well, I wouldn't give them entirely new abilities, but the idea is that instead of building CPs by spamming something like SS/Mut, you'd weave in 3 different builders and that would turn your finisher button into Evis, Envenom, Rupture, SnD and so on. So you'd have to remember a couple combos per spec, but wouldn't just spam one button or worry as much about CPs themselves. Stealth openers obviously could also provide different builders so you could plan before the pull what you want to do.
This makes rogue combos unique again.
As for energy... Yea, I really don't see why they need energy. Slice/Dice and Rupture are essentially free, and other finishers are close to free. Only thing is that they need a certain amount of energy to use.
They are called COMBO POINTS for a reason, you're wracking up a combo against the target by using various abilities together. Letting them be on the player wouldn't make much sense and it just waters everything down quite frankly, and as it's already been said, redirect solves this problem for situations where it REALLY matters.
Rogues are designed to have a ramp-up time via combo points. Without that, it would be too OP. Other classes that have things on themselves, chi for example, have to ramp up in other ways like stacking tigereye brew.
Honestly I think rogues would be cooler if their abilities had actual combos. Like say have 5 or 6 core abilities and have each one change mechanics slightly depending on the one used before it, and allow those combos to dictate what buffs, debuffs, bleeds, extra effects, etc are applied. But that'll never happen because it would fundamentally change what rogues have always been and also require skill to play, which rogues have never required.
I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.
It's artificial insomuch as it is an obstacle that need not exist, that has no real workaround that isn't tied to a 1 minute cooldown, and doesn't add anything to the game that really benefits gameplay.how is it artificial? are the other implementations natural? QOL again, ok.
Of course there is adjustment possible with other classes, because they aren't committed to their target the same way Rogues are. With their mechanics being, well, theirs, they can adjust with minimal interference to their DPS. Rogues simply cannot do this on a regular basis.Thinking is added hindrance? there's no adjusting in other classes: their CPs are as shallow as it can get (and not only on the way they stack).
Losing massive chunks of DPS because of circumstances outside of your control is a problem. Forcing Rogues to target high health NPCs is a problem. Redirect was a patch to help Rogues with this. But that's what it is. A patch. Something that should have been a placeholder for a far more elegant solution.I don't like redirect either. But it's not patching or solving anything when there wasn't a problem to begin with. The only issue at that time were the bugs that came with CPs on corpses.
I felt it was worth addressing regardless.If you don't say that, it wasn't adressed to you?
There is a world of difference between tweaks/added abilities, and the type of change other classes have seen. Fundamental shifts in design, redesigning of existing mechanics, massive playstyle changes, adapting new things when the current design isn't working. Rogues have not had any of this, despite a sagging population and a slew of often mentioned problems.And we get mechanics changed all the time. I'm not implying that you don't get to change just for being a rogue: simply that different classes have different issues and different changes.
Of course being dated is an argument. The very notion of a dated mechanic existing without modification from a very, very different time in the game's history is worth a ton of investigation. How much has Blizzard learned since then? And does it not strike you as odd that every time they have re-created the combo point idea with other classes, they have always decided against putting those points on the enemy? Almost as though they learned from a dated mechanic...and recent mechanics that are subpar are changed too. Being dated is not an argument; being sub-par is; now let's get to the sub-par part of it: QOL again?
What? A population that is by far the lowest in the game is not an indication that mechanical changes are needed?Based solely on game population I'll tell you in a heartbeat that changes are not the answer to that.
Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that given the choice, the majority of Rogues wouldn't want this change?All the time: first they check those ideas are good; so far CPs on the rogue doesn't really seem like the deciding factor. Many people like them on the rogue, many people like it on the target.
It did quite a bit for the Warlock population. The Warlock population was in a steady, steady decline throughout Cata, and has now had a healthy rise, and is still growing. Did it alienate some players? Yes. Was it overall a net increase in the player base? Absolutely.The warlock revamp apparently did very little for warlock population -aside from completely alienating some old timers off the game-. Change is not the answer to low population.
But that's just it though. The obstacle to overcome shouldn't be the very basis of your class mechanic. The obstacle to overcome shouldn't be something that can be outside of your control.Because games revolve about offering you an obstacle to overcome. I dare say everything is an obstacle. The higher they are, the bigger the reward. I get that you don't particularly enjoy this obstacle; but not everyone will like the same obstacles.
You mean for massive benefit, a la Warlock. To have three specs that actually play different, feel different, and add a new breath of life to a stagnant class is the sort of thing that is a huge benefit to a class community.It's asking for tons of human resources for little to no reward: ala warlock.
Of course people will disagree. But there needs to be a reason that trumps a solid QOL change, and as of yet, there just isn't one that doesn't contain the word homogenization.Just recently we got fairly respected posters on these forums arguing that damage poisons could be deleted. So, yeah, some people think differently than you, or me, or any other human being.
And combo points on the Rogue do exactly the same thing. But the key here is that this is a class mechanic. Things like lore and flavour are entirely mutable. They can be changed and altered with a sentence. Class mechanics are far more intricate. One shouldn't have to deal with a bad mechanic for the sake of some person's pre-conceived notion of what a Rogue is.So I'll simply disagree with you: what you're describing delivers on fantasy; CPs don't do that. But there are *many* other comon themes of rogue desing in wow; particularly timing seems to be a big thing. 8 years ago we described rogue cycles as: trivial to figure what's next, crucial to time it right. Rogues think ahead: they solve problems before they appear. CPs on the target reinforce that concept: you need to figure a way to dump them before you switch.
I'm sorry, but that's kind of silly. A QOL change is just exactly that. Something that improves quality of life. Some people will hem and haw about it, but the change is made for the majority of the player base. There is plenty of historical precedent here for sweeping QOL changes that are designed to make a class play better. Now, I'm all for looking into other solutions as well, and like I said, I favour even more large scale change than this, but at the end of the day if comes down to either combo points on the player or on the enemy, I haven't seen a single thing to indicate that having them on the Rogue would be anything but a positive.It's nice that you frame everything as 'I don't see this; but it's a QOL issue so solving that must go first'. For some players, that bit of a mechanic goes much deeper than their QOL issues; those are real players, with real concerns, and they like mechanics that you don't. It really boils down to that. You can choose to understand them or not. Playing a game is not an exercise of efficiency; neither is it a system with 100% certainty. If you take away CPs on target, you risk taking away many things people like; things that you personaly don't value, I get that. But you only get one thing in return: QOL. But that QOL, as you seem to agree, can be solved in different ways, so I'd rather first explore those.
I've been playing since release, but haven't mained a Rogue since release, so they aren't quite as dry for me just yet. And no, I don't believe that the devs hate Rogues of there is any sort of agenda there. But here's the thing: Every other class has had their fundamental mechanics changed in one way or another, some of them multiple times, since release. Rogues has had tweaks and abilities added and removed, but by and large have not seen that kind of overhaul of their mechanics. Does that mean that Rogues are so well tuned that no changes are needed? I simply do not believe that, and I think that current population levels of Rogues supports that line of thought. I agree that we need a better game, but I think that means that we need a better class, for starters. An old mechanic that Blizzard has steered away from on a class that needs a pretty strong update seems like a good place to start.As to your final bit: 'rogues are neglected'. Is it hard to imagine we didn't need that many changes bacause we were better designed inthe first place? do you really think devs simply don't like your class or think people that play it don't matter? I'm inclined to believe you've simply played it for too long -and so have I-. I would personaly love it if they changed the class upside down, yes; but only because I've been doing the same thing for 8 years. The average player doesn't play for that long: the game is no designed around you or me, but on that average player, and rogue design, imho, ranges from good to excelent already for them -compared to other classes at least-. When I discuss stuff about rogues, I try to make a better game, not a game I personaly like better. If people don't take that approach we'll keep seeing silly arguments about deleting the whole combat spec.
/all for combo points on the player (seeing as Feral will only ever get half-arsed versions of any Rogue combo point bandaids at best)