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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well, a 0 second redirect option like in S12 had 0 impact on pvp.
    You keep saying this like it matters. It didn't have zero impact because of the mechanic itself. It had zero impact because of the overall metagame, the way it was introduced, and state of the rogue class at the time. It's the big picture that you continue to disregard over and over as you make absurd statements like "Every other class has a ranged stun!" So much of this was explained already, though. I'm fully aware of their mechanical similarities. But I'm also aware of the distinctions, which you woefully claim are irrelevant for PvP.

  2. #122
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonesTheRabbit View Post
    You keep saying this like it matters. It didn't have zero impact because of the mechanic itself. It had zero impact because of the overall metagame, the way it was introduced, and state of the rogue class at the time. It's the big picture that you continue to disregard over and over as you make absurd statements like "Every other class has a ranged stun!" So much of this was explained already, though. I'm fully aware of their mechanical similarities. But I'm also aware of the distinctions, which you woefully claim are irrelevant for PvP.
    If 0 CD Redirect alone didn't break anything, Combo Points on the Rogue come 6.0 wouldn't break anything by itself. It's that simple. If they became completely broken (OP), it would be because a sum of factors, not by Combo Points alone.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    If 0 CD Redirect alone didn't break anything, Combo Points on the Rogue come 6.0 wouldn't break anything by itself. It's that simple. If they became completely broken (OP), it would be because a sum of factors, not by Combo Points alone.
    Nice logic. Ignoring competing talents, the state of rogues when versatility was implemented, the fact that redirect acts as a tell which allows skilled players a moment of reaction time before getting hit with the follow-up, etc. But I mean, this has already been pointed out a few times now, and it's being disregarded as somehow irrelevant. I don't understand how on one side, folks will argue that this is an important mechanical change that rogues need, but simultaneously argue that it won't affect the overall metagame for the class in its most delicate area of gameplay. It's all just self-contradicting buff begging. Your final conclusion is also a non-statement. Very rarely does a single ability make a given class overtuned.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesTheRabbit View Post
    Very rarely does a single ability make a given class overtuned.

    Then get off our nuts on this one? It's been tested in pvp and couldn't make rogues matter for shit. We have data, you have some hand waving intuition in the same thread you wonder why no one uses a glyph that doesn't exist. Versatility wasn't just "worse than the other optoins"- it was worse than the beta version of shuriken toss, which didn't bring much to the table until later buffs. Versatility could have had a happy home with the theorized "shadowstep redirect kidney", but that didn't matter.

    And it won't matter in 5.4, and if they put CPs on the rogue it would barely effect PvP, and NOT effect an actual burst scenario, which, as you'll remember, almost always relies on a shadow dance to do jack dick with.

  5. #125
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonesTheRabbit View Post
    Nice logic. Ignoring competing talents, the state of rogues when versatility was implemented, the fact that redirect acts as a tell which allows skilled players a moment of reaction time before getting hit with the follow-up, etc. But I mean, this has already been pointed out a few times now, and it's being disregarded as somehow irrelevant. I don't understand how on one side, folks will argue that this is an important mechanical change that rogues need, but simultaneously argue that it won't affect the overall metagame for the class in its most delicate area of gameplay. It's all just self-contradicting buff begging. Your final conclusion is also a non-statement. Very rarely does a single ability make a given class overtuned.
    Ok. 5.0 had Anticipation, Versatility and Shuriken Toss as lvl 90 talents. From a Raiding PoV, Anticipation was a single target increase so big that Versatility had no place at all. On competitive PvP (Arenas), Anticipation was useless due to its nature, so it was a choice between Versatility and Shuriken Toss.

    Shuriken Toss didn't have its autoattack buff, so it was pretty weak overall. Versatility was the least horrible of the talent choices, as it allowed more flexibility when swapping targets.

    It's not an "important mechanical change that rogues need", the class has survived almost 10 years without it. The removal of Warlock Soulstones wasn't needed, as wasn't ammo and min-range removal from Hunters. However, they were huge and valid QoL improvements worth trying.

    What I said was mostly refering to that "but it will make Rogues completely overpowered in PvP!". That change wouldn't make Rogues overpowered. The state of Rogues when that change would go live could make them, not that change in particular.

    Also, bear in mind that right now we're comparing Combo Points on the Rogue versus 10 second CD on Redirect as a major glyph. Talents doesn't have anything to do with it right now.

    It would bring some change on how Rogues play on PvP, that's for granted, but it's not something that automatically breaks the class. Seeing how Subtely has been the traditional PvP spec, I would argue that Shadowdance was a bigger game-changer than what Combo Points on the Rogue could ever hope to be.
    Last edited by Linneth; 2013-08-18 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Then get off our nuts on this one?
    TIL Participating in a discussion and disagreeing with another poster is the equivalent of riding their nuts. Since you're clearly becoming emotional over this, I'll come back to respond after the air has become less charged. Still, I imagine it would still be a fruitless endeavor, due to the overwhelming degree of cognitive bias and willful misinterpretation which you're displaying here. Given that, I may depart from this facet of the thread permanently (Rejoice). Time will tell either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    What I said was mostly refering to that "but it will make Rogues completely overpowered in PvP!". That change wouldn't make Rogues overpowered. The state of Rogues when that change would go live could make them, not that change in particular.
    So you're not actually disagreeing with me. Please note that I'm addressing explicit statements that this would have no change on the PvP metagame, that it's not related to the balance of the rogue class, equivocations between distinctive mechanics, and the supposed need of this change. I apologize if I've mistakenly lumped you in with those making such absurd points and comparing in a vacuum. Either way, it looks like we're on the same page, more or less. With appropriate acknowledgement of the total metagame, I can see how this change might be implemented in 6.0. Currently, though, it's likely not as such for balance reasons which have already been explained. But you already understand that.

    I must also give credence to those who legitimately enjoy the playstyle. It's a subjective point, but it still holds its own validity.
    Last edited by BonesTheRabbit; 2013-08-18 at 11:09 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesTheRabbit View Post
    TIL Participating in a discussion and disagreeing with another poster is the equivalent of riding their nuts.
    You come into a thread and state that CPs on rogue will break PvP.

    It is pointed out that redirect 0 cooldown, which is VERY close to that (and allows the "Helvetica Scenario" of step-kidney) was already live and was not a big deal. It is also pointed out that the 10 second one we are about to see will allow this to be tested all next season.

    Do you get it? Do you see why this is nut-riding? History has already showed you incorrect, and this season will test the theory further. Will you, after a season of unremarkable amounts of step-kidney, then back CPs on rogue for at least one rogue spec?

  8. #128
    Honor Among Thieves and Versatility should have been the worst case scenario already, where a rogue could just let CPs build up on a target and move them freely to as other targets comes in, without ever leaving stealth.

    Tbh Redirect, Versatility and the new Glyph are all responses to make targetswitching less of a loss, and if the answer indeed is, as it seems they want it to be, atleast optionally, "push this button to move all CPs at will", then they´re just dancing around the obvious fix, which is to store CPs on the player.
    Cause at that point.. why bother having a move button at all?
    Sure, 10 sec if that glyph goes live isnt free redirect at any given time, but still..

    I´d be fine with having CPs on myself, there´d be a few less losses, like targets dying, hasty swaps with redirect on CD, to a lesser extent rupture multidotting.. no vanishing CPs on certain mobs that just despawn, or dumping them into recouperate for no real reason before skinning a mob and moving on.
    Im not loosing any sleep over it though, either way is fine.

    When it comes to class identity I feel more robbed of it by the way dungeons work now, there isnt any sneaking in to sap certain key mobs in a pack, and that´s kinda a large part of what I saw as my class role.. that and melting faces, from the back!

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    You come into a thread and state that CPs on rogue will break PvP.
    I'm just addressing this post to clarify a few things. Your first statement is a complete strawman. I have not once said that the mechanic would break PvP. Other people have said that, and you've already seen me state that I disagree with that general concept. I've said that the current model does carry mechanical implications, and that changing it could have a potentially negative impact on the metagame.

    These points are both true, regardless of your stubborn denial, false equivocations, and hyperbole. While I understand that you're passionate about this subject, attempting to reduce my argument to an absurdity is not at all constructive to this topic of discussion. With that firmly stated, I'm now finished discussing with your person. Though, I sincerely hope the day treats you well.
    Last edited by BonesTheRabbit; 2013-08-19 at 05:04 AM.

  10. #130
    Hi i dont wanna argue but i dont really wanna see a revamp of my rogue. I have been playing rogue as main char since 2004, i have been throw the up's and down's but have always enjoyed my class rogue! So i just begs to not do any drastic that change the whole class. I love how it's rewarding and can be punished by small mistakes. Rogue life!

  11. #131
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    It's not an "important mechanical change that rogues need", the class has survived almost 10 years without it. The removal of Warlock Soulstones wasn't needed, as wasn't ammo and min-range removal from Hunters. However, they were huge and valid QoL improvements worth trying.
    There's a huge difference between those changes and what you want though. None of those things were actual damage buffs in a pve scenario, they rather solved issues such as "30 min break while the warlocks get new soul shards guys" and huge flaws in encounter design where hunters couldn't be part of a stacked up raid because bosses were designed with a colossal hitbox (all dragons and marrowgar are excellent examples), presumably to make life easier for melee.

    Rogues had their share of the same kind of buffs in the removal of poison items and reagents for blind and vanish.
    Comparing any of those changes to putting CPs on the rogue instead of the target is just nowhere near the same thing.

    Everything else you've said has already been addressed.

    So far the only argument I've seen that I even consider valid is that CPs can get confusing in aoe scenarios.
    Last edited by Lohe; 2013-08-19 at 08:44 AM.

  12. #132
    I don't mind having combo points on the target, but they really need to fix any bug related with dead bodies and aoe.

    That said, they should also take a look in how redirect can become a true solution to the problems related with target switching. I think they could even make a whole tier with 3 talents just focused on improving redirect. Something like marked for death could be one of those talents (replacing redirect), then one in the lines of warlocks soul swap (strip away rupture and DP from the target and apply them in a new one along with the combo points) and the other one being reworked versatility with the CD reduction to 10sec but no special effects other than the combo points transfering. (of course, this are just examples, with no balance in mind).

    So for me, is not about changing how combo points work, but how we can interact with them.
    Last edited by Geckoo; 2013-08-19 at 11:55 AM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    ---snip---
    This would be an expansion change, meaning that any indirect pve damage buff is meaningless, because it's a frigging new expansion. The removal of deadzone and min-range brought lesser gameplay changes to Hunters, just like Combo Points on the Rogue would do. Redirect not working at all on certain encounters is also a direct consequence of flaws in encounter design, just like Subtely getting screwed up by random boss turning during Shadowdance.

  14. #134
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    I like them on the player, but also on the target, The Secret World has a nice approach to it, as all "Classes" have combo points, basically Healers generate them on themselves and DPS/Tanks on the Target. But certain abilities cause them to be generated in the opposite order, make a cd which builds 5 combo points and puts them on the player.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Homogenization is a decent point, but I think that quality of life needs to be addressed too. Combo points are an old mechanic that doesn't have to exist in its current form any more. Blizzard has done quite a bit of change when it comes to how these things are worked. Warlocks had Soul Shards redesigned from a class mechanic that was cumbersome to a new method of powering abilities. Hunters had ammo removed as it contributed nothing to the class, but was an extra headache to have to work with. Shamans have their totems redesigned and streamlined to make them more interesting.

    Rogues (and Feral Druids) are stuck on a mechanic that hasn't changed since release. It's not terribly interesting, and has been patched with quality of life changes (like Redirect), rather than actually worked on. When just about every other class has been given quality of life changes to some of their core mechanics, it's kind of sad to see how similar Rogues are to what they were at release.
    Rage has been changed and is just as worthless. Be happy you don't have that shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    This would be an expansion change, meaning that any indirect pve damage buff is meaningless, because it's a frigging new expansion. The removal of deadzone and min-range brought lesser gameplay changes to Hunters, just like Combo Points on the Rogue would do. Redirect not working at all on certain encounters is also a direct consequence of flaws in encounter design, just like Subtely getting screwed up by random boss turning during Shadowdance.
    Granted, I've only been doing lfr on my rogue this expansion but the only times I've had issues with redirect due to encounter mechanics is, I think, Elegon (swapping from spark to something) and Megaera and neither of these things force the whole raid to do anything. The Hunter changes fixed two issues, one of which they said directly was a Hunter problem (unable to stack in melee, forcing raids to either exclude hunters or adapting strategies purely for their benefit) and the other something that they're keeping an eye on in general (ability bloat, hunters used to have a very high amount of abilities and this let them remove a bunch of them). This change does nothing of the sort. This is asking for a direct performance improvement.

    Again, the changes you compared it with affected the whole raid, this doesn't.
    Also, positional requirements is another issue altogether but random boss turning (which isn't random) is not an encounter flaw. An encounter flaw would be bosses like Ultraxion where you can't possibly stand behind the boss. I think positional requirements are dumb but this is mostly due to PvP, I don't have any issue with it in PvE.

  17. #137
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    This is asking for a direct performance improvement.
    No, it's asking for a QoL improvement (which leads to a performance improvement). I'm baffled by how the argument is getting retorted by doing a 1:1 comparison with other changes. Even if all of them solved different issues, ALL of them meant a direct QoL issue, which is where my comparison steams from. Arguing that Hunters had issue X with condition Y while dancing around boss mechanic Z that Rogues doesn't have to deal with doesn't mean that Combo Points on the Rogue are just crying for buffs; if I wanted to do that I would ask for Assassin's Resolve/Vitality/Sanguinary Vein buffs, which they already do, mind you.

    Bosses turn around "at random" with no other purpose than to target a player and throw it's ability. If they want to keep positional requirements for Subtely and Feral they should have solved that long ago. To me that screams encounter flaw, gameplay flaw, boss design flaw, call it whatever you want.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    No, it's asking for a QoL improvement (which leads to a performance improvement). I'm baffled by how the argument is getting retorted by doing a 1:1 comparison with other changes.
    People call it asking for a QoL improvement but the only argument in this thread for it being so is that CPs are messy on AoE, all other arguments for changing it has been based on a perceived weakness in the class that the user doesn't like (I just re-read the whole thread to make sure this was the case, too). This is a reason to fix how the AoE works, not a reason to put CPs on the rogue. That's asking for a performance improvement and calling it a QoL issue, not asking for a QoL improvement that works out as a performance increase.

    Oh, and I only addressed it because you compared this potential change to those changes which is 100% invalid.

  19. #139
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    the fact is that the current combo point system functions

    As such it falls under the category of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'

    nevertheless, it is a system more prone to failure than the Chi-Holy Power type system.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    People call it asking for a QoL improvement but the only argument in this thread for it being so is that CPs are messy on AoE, all other arguments for changing it has been based on a perceived weakness in the class that the user doesn't like (I just re-read the whole thread to make sure this was the case, too). This is a reason to fix how the AoE works, not a reason to put CPs on the rogue. That's asking for a performance improvement and calling it a QoL issue, not asking for a QoL improvement that works out as a performance increase.

    Oh, and I only addressed it because you compared this potential change to those changes which is 100% invalid.
    It's a QoL improvements especially with the addition of the glyph of redirect. Think of a fight like Horridon which has adds spawning fairly quickly which gives rogues the possibility of having to redirect every 10 seconds or possibly even sooner and losing CP still if a mob gets smashed too fast. Having to hit redirect every ~10 seconds compared to just having CP on the rogue is a huge QoL issues.

    And like you said in AoE it's just a giant cluster fuck of bad which in it self is a good argument for it.

    It would be a performance increase but not necessarily a huge one since a lot of proper play even now can lead to a similar result but mostly it just gives an easier way (quality of life) to reach that without having to spam redirect. Even in a mass add fight like horridon it still wouldn't be game breaking since rogues do have a bit of a build up on each target it would just make for a more fluid change between adds.

    But personally I think the biggest reason for wanting cp on the rogue instead of the target is just the fact that even with the redirect glyph and being able to especially spam it there's still the problem that a lot of times you simply can't redirect your old cp to the new target if the mob disappears since the cp no longer exist. So that would really be more of a bug fix with the current iteration of the game that has the easiest fix being putting cp on the rogue where they can't disappear... well I guess unless you die but that's a different story.

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