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  1. #1

    Why don't people want combo points on the player?

    Most people on these forums seem to want combo points on the player rather than the target and in most discussions about changes to the class this topic is brought up almost 100% of the time.

    But, some people think that it would be a bad change.

    Why?

    I've never seen a well thought out logical reason/discusion about why changing CP to the player rather than the target would be a bad idea.

    So, please if you are against this idea please tell me why. Please refrain from using short 1 line answers such as "I don't like it" or "Will ruin the class" or "it will make rogues not unique". But if you feel like that please tell me why you do. Why do you think that it will ruin the class? Why don't you like it? What is it about this idea that causes it to be bad for the rogue class?

    Please someone give me an intelligent answer as to why people think like this because I just don't get it right now.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Because if they were on the player it would be holy power.

    Homogenization is bad. It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.
    Blue text indicates sarcasm or joking.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    Because if they were on the player it would be holy power.

    Homogenization is bad. It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.
    Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...

  4. #4
    Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

    There's no reason to change it really.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...
    What does lore have to do with it? Lore was never mentioned. My complaint has never been about CP being on target. My issues with rogues were two part: Losing CP if you switched targets, and why in the world do finishing moves require energy when they already require CP to use?

  6. #6
    I dunno, I kinda like the idea of it being on the player, but it would essentially just be Chi/Holy Power, which are the same thing when you think about it. It already kinda -is- Chi/Holy Power, but slightly less useful.

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  7. #7
    Dreadlord
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    Combo Point are on the player when playing the Rogue class....



    .... in Rift.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Luneward View Post
    What does lore have to do with it? Lore was never mentioned.
    Yes, it was.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    Because if they were on the player it would be holy power.

    Homogenization is bad. It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

    There's no reason to change it really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luneward View Post
    What does lore have to do with it? Lore was never mentioned. My complaint has never been about CP being on target. My issues with rogues were two part: Losing CP if you switched targets, and why in the world do finishing moves require energy when they already require CP to use?
    Towards Luneward - Did you even READ the previous posts? Warstar was responding directly to Orangetai who commented about LORE…

    Towards Rucati - Redirect makes a HUGE difference… If you have to Redirect you are taking time away from DPSing… And, a lot of times when you kill a mob, the combo points just plain vanish (no pun intended), with ZERO opportunity to use Redirect…

    Again Towards Luneward - See, the thing is, if CPs were ON THE ROGUE, you would NEVER lose them…!!!

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    I think combopoints are still on the target because Blizzard is stubborn and everyone will cry "CLASSSS HOMOGENENINANZINZAITONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" when in reality it doesn't change how Rogue plays.

  11. #11
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    I think that having them on the player would obviously be an ideal solution for something that many of us have hated for a long time now. Alternatively, i feel that keeping no cooldown on Redirect and fixing some of the many issues it has 'will do for now'. Desipte this, blizz are moving back in the wrong direction and are partially reverting the original 5.4 changes. It would be extremely interesting to have some feedback as to why this is, as it is pretty much the same as the OP in this thread - "WHY" would anyone think that is the right thing to do.

    Its disappointing.

  12. #12
    Homogenization is a decent point, but I think that quality of life needs to be addressed too. Combo points are an old mechanic that doesn't have to exist in its current form any more. Blizzard has done quite a bit of change when it comes to how these things are worked. Warlocks had Soul Shards redesigned from a class mechanic that was cumbersome to a new method of powering abilities. Hunters had ammo removed as it contributed nothing to the class, but was an extra headache to have to work with. Shamans have their totems redesigned and streamlined to make them more interesting.

    Rogues (and Feral Druids) are stuck on a mechanic that hasn't changed since release. It's not terribly interesting, and has been patched with quality of life changes (like Redirect), rather than actually worked on. When just about every other class has been given quality of life changes to some of their core mechanics, it's kind of sad to see how similar Rogues are to what they were at release.

  13. #13
    Combo points are a video game mechanic...not lore. People will simply find a way to argue about anything, OP. I am for CP's being attached to the player, as op as this may seem in PvP.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

    There's no reason to change it really.
    The class is based around a standard rotation on a single target fight. Other wise if rogues were based around missing combo points then if you didn't miss combo points rogues would be so far ahead on damage it would be stupid. So, the class is based around not losing combo points and the fact that they do is a poor design.

    Redirect is a buggy ability that fails more than it works. It's basically an admission by blizzard that combo points on the target suck and that it needs to be fixed. Plus Redirect is just extra wasted globals and "bloat" that we don't need. The fact that it's on the GCD makes it rather clunky to use and a rapid target swap. A solution would be to just macro it in to abilities then but blizzard hates that so it wouldn't happen. Easiest change is to just put it on the player and get rid of the clunkiness are make a huge quality of life improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlarStormbringer View Post
    I dunno, I kinda like the idea of it being on the player, but it would essentially just be Chi/Holy Power, which are the same thing when you think about it. It already kinda -is- Chi/Holy Power, but slightly less useful.
    Yes and no. For one finishers still use energy which chi/holy power don't (not sure if paladins stuff uses mana but even if it does it doesn't matter since mana doesn't matter for paladins). They also have different ways to build the cp with rogues being a lot more random than the others. And, both those other classes get abilities that gives them free finishers where rogues can only use a finisher with spending all their cp. There is a difference it would just be improving the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    I think combopoints are still on the target because Blizzard is stubborn and everyone will cry "CLASSSS HOMOGENENINANZINZAITONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" when in reality it doesn't change how Rogue plays.
    I don't get why homogenization is such an evil word around here. Sure somethings have changed but over all it's more for just being more buffs to a 10 man raid rather than making class A play just like class B. It's like people see it and start freaking out like the anti-christ is coming or something. I mean really most of these class changes are based on the original design of the rogue class just they get improvements and rogues stay the same. Plus in a case like this it wouldn't change anything. You wouldn't all of a sudden be like "man my rogue feels just like a ret paladin" because even with a similar resource system they play totally different. Same thing with monks. If you've ever played a monk even though chi is on the character it has a hugely different game play feel than rogues so even if rogues were changed they'd still keep their own identity.

    Classes should have their own unique identity through skills and abilities not a resource system. Even warlocks which were all changed up to different resource systems still have unique abilities that define each spec. It's kind of a stupid thought to think that rogues need to be defined by a resource system that 90% agree is poorly designed.

  15. #15
    might have something to do with walking up to someone and dropping a 5 point Kidney Shot without any buildup

  16. #16
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    The "OP in pvp" arguement simply isn't valid in my eyes. How can a class be shackled to one target and be called OP when this blatant issue is addressed? Damage is tuned so frequently for PvP that it wouldn't even matter, as any issues that do arise would be swiftly balanced around. It's not difficult... it's just lazy design.

  17. #17
    DPS'ing one target and using deadly throw on the healer.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Because then rogues will be like monks, paladins and to a certain extend warlocks.

    I like my combo points on the target.

  19. #19
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyjunky View Post
    DPS'ing one target and using deadly throw on the healer.
    That's just simple focus interupt. Sure the lockout effect could be a little brutal... but I'm pretty sure that can still be changed. Given a choice between a deadly throw "nerf" or CP on the player, I'm pretty sure 99% the community would take the latter option.

  20. #20
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Homogenization is a decent point, but I think that quality of life needs to be addressed too. Combo points are an old mechanic that doesn't have to exist in its current form any more. Blizzard has done quite a bit of change when it comes to how these things are worked. Warlocks had Soul Shards redesigned from a class mechanic that was cumbersome to a new method of powering abilities. Hunters had ammo removed as it contributed nothing to the class, but was an extra headache to have to work with. Shamans have their totems redesigned and streamlined to make them more interesting.
    Don't forget Paladin seals, which up to WotLK needed to be reapplied everytime you used Judgment. It was unique back then, now it's another Poison/Aspect/Weapon enhancement, which seeing how clunky the previous implementation was I would say is a good thing.

    Also, Chi/Holy Power are Combo Points ripoffs, making Combo Points on the Rogue wouldn't change that fact, not to mention that our Resource System is both Energy and Combo Points. Chi abilities have a fixed cost, which differ from Combo Point abilities. Holy Power generators are limited by a CD instead of being spammable as long as there is energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgomir View Post
    might have something to do with walking up to someone and dropping a 5 point Kidney Shot without any buildup
    You can already do that now with Redirect and the sky hasn't fallen yet.
    Last edited by Linneth; 2013-08-17 at 07:53 PM.

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