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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    i dont understand what you try to say with your post :/

    also how is a 5 cp evis nailing something in pvp its not like we crit for big amounts also our CC abilitys have CD and if you are worried about DT they could just place an CD on it and make it a ranged kick or remove it entirely
    Adding a CD would make sense and solve the QQ problem even if it's a 10 second CD like redirect is now which btw using redirect a DT is worthless since it's on the GCD and most heals are either instant cast or a quick heal or even a fake cast which makes a redirect DT almost impossible to pull off if a healer's paying attention. And, 10 seconds would give it the same amount of use as a warrior using a focus charge with double time.

    Btw Verain if you want to talk about resources vs. utility look at warriors they have so many ways to CC a target in some way or interrupt or stun or fear or disorient or knock down or snare and out of all of that the only utility ability they have that even costs rage at all is hamstring/piercing howl which has a very small resource cost at that. Hell even stuff like charge which is one of the most useful melee abilities in the game that stuns, can be used as a focus interrupt, is a gap closer actually generates resources for them. So a warrior can actually stun a person and gain rage to do more damage to them...

    As far as resource for utility goes the only real comparison is actually no comparison at all because the trade off is so much more beneficial. The only thing that can be used that costs a lot of resources is off healing from a dps. Most dps specs have a huge resource drain when they off heal whether its a ret paladin spamming WoG or even spam healing or a shadow priest or whatever they get their mana drained pretty hard off healing but the benefits from that are so huge and have no diminishing returns. A rogue can cc only so much before their CC is worthless where as as long as a person has mana they can heal with just as much benefit as before (as long as it's not over healing which would be stupid).

    But for resources v. CC mana doesn't mean anything since most dps classes that use mana don't really worry about it but aside from that I think really only rogues/druids actually have a cost to use their CC abilities. Well monks fists of fury costs chi but it's actually a strong defensive CD with the glyph, strong CC with the stun, and is used in their damage rotation anyways. And feral druids actually get a free ranged kidney shot (cyclone) every time they do a finisher or a free heal they can cast on themselves or a party member that's way stronger/versatile than recuperate heals and when they do heal it even makes them do more damage. So a druid can kidney shot for 5 points that causes a decent amount of damage when they do it and that also procs a ranged stun that has 0 resource cost at the same time and CC 2 people for the price of 1.

    So rogues typically need to keep up rupture and snd which take a log of cp to maintain and the use evis for burst phases. As of right now I don't think any rogues use recoup at all in arena since it just doesn't do anything and is a huge waste of resources and kidney shot is the only stun that costs resources that doesn't also add damage.

    Btw as far as cp on the rogue and target swapping. Look at a warrior. They have very strong damage in pvp and can wreck some faces. They have really 0 ramp up time at all aside from pooling rage to burst harder but a warrior can effectively charge in pop all their CDs and be at 100% damage right off the bat. A warrior has the absolute best mobility of any melee class as far as gap closing and sticking on a target. They can swap targets at a moments notice with no down time or redirect needed and charge stun interrupt a spell cast into a fear or do any other sort of CC/interrupt combination that they can do all while keeping up 100% damage and all my warrior friends talk about how much they love destroying rogues in pvp right now. So if a warrior has pretty much the same amount of utility stun wise as a rogue, stronger heals with impending victory (which is also free and deals damage), higher damage, way better mobility and really the only thing they don't have that a rogue does is sap and smoke bomb and yet warriors haven't broken the game why would rogues having cp on them break it?

    I guarantee that every argument that could be brought up as to how cp on rogues would break pvp is already in the game on other classes except for DT which adding a CD to that easily fixes that problem.

  2. #162
    Something to be said on quality of life for the entire leveling process aswell, not just maximizing dps on high end raids.
    Been leveling a WW monk, and another rogue (tbh I dont know why hehe).
    Just going from mob to mob with skinning, kinda sucks on a rogue cause you need to use the CPs before skinning, and at this point i dont have Cut to the chase yet, so I put the few remaining CPs into recoup or SnD.. which is then ticking off while I skin and move to the next mob.
    And dungeons is a real pain, basically open, get snd up, then the mob is dead with 2-4 cps on it.. which I can only use for SnD (which I already have up) or recoup since I dont have redirect yet.
    Not getting a lot of finishers off at all.

    On the monk on the other hand, it´s about as smooth as I wished it was, even back lvling my main in vanilla days.
    CPs on the player isn´t a new idea with monks, it´s been asked for since forever, because of how much more convenient it is.

    And on the high end raid bit, how about making the rotations a bit more interesting instead of leaning back on Redirect as some sort of "min max" skill for "skilled rogues".

    I would prefer to have the CPs on the player, but I dont think it´s the end of the world not to have it.
    But tbh it would make a MUCH bigger difference in leveling then it would at max level, atleast in the way of convenience.
    Im not feeling like I waste a ton of CPs in boss fights at lvl90, the most annoying part is probably the FOK spamming and loosing track of the target with the CPs on it while trying to spread out some ruptures.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...
    Here's the thing with lore and with the fantasy genre as a whole: you need to learn use your imagination a little bit. Rogues are all about setting someone up and going for the jugular after they've set them up. They don't stabstabstab one target and then walk across the room and try to one-shot a different target. That's why it took them so long to create the Redirect ability, and even then it was more for balance and less for lore.

  4. #164
    Fluffy Kitten Siri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Why? What harm do you think will come from the redirect glyph change? I'd like a prediction, to be honest, because I'm pretty sure this next patch will prove you wrong.
    I had this long post typed out to respond to everything you wrote but I decided not to post it because, frankly, even if I told you why you're wrong, you wouldn't see it/agree with it anyway. Instead, I'm just going to reply to this one question.

    I didn't say that it would be harmful, I said I didn't like it. I raided as a rogue on a high level before Redirect existed, I raided as a rogue on a high level with it on a 1 min CD and I didn't have a problem with either. I think it's the type of ability that lessens the impact of a good player for a convenience gain that isn't needed and I think it would be more pleasurable overall if the game balance was done under the assumption that you couldn't redirect at all (à la feral) as opposed to the assumption that you're meant to redirect every 10 seconds when needed.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    For the sake of argument, I thought of a way to "solve" Redirect and AoE problems while keeping current swapping limitations. Basically, Combo Points would be stored on the Rogue but behave like Cataclysm's version of Bandit's Guile: if you attack another target with a combo generator, your previous combo points fade. Using Redirect would change your "current target", allowing you to attack without losing your Combo Points.
    This seems to be the most elegant solution to the problem. It would also give us a reason to use CT on occasion.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    i dont understand what you try to say with your post :/

    also how is a 5 cp evis nailing something in pvp its not like we crit for big amounts also our CC abilitys have CD and if you are worried about DT they could just place an CD on it and make it a ranged kick or remove it entirely
    In this thread we have had a few people that in the same post are saying making the switch wouldn't change anything and that it has to be done. This is obviously not true, if it didn't change anything then why do it? Clearly it switches things, in many cases for the better. Acting like it doesn't yet somehow is a must fix is lunacy.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    Here's the thing with lore and with the fantasy genre as a whole: you need to learn use your imagination a little bit. Rogues are all about setting someone up and going for the jugular after they've set them up. They don't stabstabstab one target and then walk across the room and try to one-shot a different target. That's why it took them so long to create the Redirect ability, and even then it was more for balance and less for lore.
    First off unless you're fighting old content which doesn't matter rogues don't walk around one shotting things with envenom and if they are please tell me how since apparently I'm playing my class wrong. Secondly marked for death? Still don't one shot but lets me open with a finisher so according to you my RP world has just been blown away. Thirdly they're called combo points not setting someone up points. Just because I do a combination of moves doesn't mean they're only against one target. From an RP perspective look at Karate or other forms of martial arts. They have Katas that are designed with multiple opponents in mind where you chain a combination of moves against several targets. So "lore" "RP" whatever wise it'd make even more sense to be able to have CP on the rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    In this thread we have had a few people that in the same post are saying making the switch wouldn't change anything and that it has to be done. This is obviously not true, if it didn't change anything then why do it? Clearly it switches things, in many cases for the better. Acting like it doesn't yet somehow is a must fix is lunacy.
    There's a difference between saying that the change would be a huge improvement for a class instead of saying that it would be a huge buff. Would it make stuff better? 100% yes. Would it make a gain in dps? Sometimes but not that frequently and only on a multi target/aoe fight. So when people saying that it wouldn't change anything it's saying that on a patchwerk style fight that nothing would change. A fight where a rogue can have full up time on a boss or where redirect is useful and they can possibly never lose CP due to good game play it wouldn't make any difference. Would gaining the few lost cp here and there make a huge difference in dps? Not really but it'd make the combat more fluid.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    This seems to be the most elegant solution to the problem. It would also give us a reason to use CT on occasion.
    That's a bad reason to use an ability... you're saying that an ability is so worthless that the only reason to use it is because we have a poorly designed resource system and in situations that are really crappy for us we can bitch out and use this ability instead of our normal rotation and take a nice hit on a dps loss which usually of adds are dying fast and we use CT we don't even get the full use out of it since the adds die before CT finishes ticking... that's a horrible horrible horrible reason to use an ability that in it self is just really bad.

    @Shenjin

    That's my biggest gripe with leveling a rogue. You get evis pretty early on leveling but you don't get to actually use it til later. Most mobs die within 2-3 sinister strikes and you never even hit 5 cp unless you're on a boss fight in a low level dungeon and most of the time just gets dumped to refreshing slice n dice. No other class besides a feral has to deal with this and it makes leveling a rogue really boring. Later on you get faster cp generation on a target and a bigger health pool so eventually you get to use all your stuff so mid level leveling is pretty cool. But then at higher levels everyone else just aoe's packs down but if a rogue fights more than 2-3 mobs they get destroyed. I found that from like 1-20 was pretty lame, 20-85 was ok so the vast majority was ok but then at 85-90 leveling in pandaria sucked. So far I'm almost to getting my 7th 90 and I've leveled up every other class except my lv60 priest somewhat in pandaria and so far leveling the rogue was the worst experience out of any other class. Everyone else has really strong aoe and ether some sort of defensive CD to repeatedly use for aoe pulling or even just a healing ability. Leveling my rogue was the slowest and highest deaths class out of any class and that wasn't due to bad game play or anything just if I ever got stuck with 3 or more mobs on me I couldn't aoe them down before they killed me or if I lived I had to eat/bandage after each fight. But that's not a cp on target problem that's a class in general problem.

    Mostly it's for low levels and instances where stuff just dies way too fast and it's pretty lame not being able to really do half of your abilities just spam SS til you run out of energy and keep up snd.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    That's a bad reason to use an ability... you're saying that an ability is so worthless that the only reason to use it is because we have a poorly designed resource system and in situations that are really crappy for us we can bitch out and use this ability instead of our normal rotation and take a nice hit on a dps loss which usually of adds are dying fast and we use CT we don't even get the full use out of it since the adds die before CT finishes ticking... that's a horrible horrible horrible reason to use an ability that in it self is just really bad.
    I agree that CT's only real use as a ghetto redirect is a base problem with the ability itself. However, the solution suggested is a viable solution to the actual problem of mob's disappearing/changing in a way that causes our CP points built on that mob to disappear. This is an actual mechanical problem where the current implementation of the CP system is not working as intended. I would very much like to see this issue addressed.

    Now the problem of cp's not stacking on the rogue is only a problem if your personal opinion makes it so. I really don't care what they do with CP's as long as they work as intended and the outcome of your actions can be reliably anticipated.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    That's my biggest gripe with leveling a rogue. You get evis pretty early on leveling but you don't get to actually use it til later. Most mobs die within 2-3 sinister strikes
    I will point, out, this is kind of an #heirloomproblem. If you don't have solid gear, you will build up more CPs.

    and you never even hit 5 cp unless you're on a boss fight in a low level dungeon and most of the time just gets dumped to refreshing slice n dice.
    But, this is a thing. It's also part of why I think that the 50 energy sinister won't really hurt leveling much. You are very likely to just kill the mob with the more powerful sinister- and who cares about the eviscerate!

    No other class besides a feral
    Feral is a spec.

    Rogue is a class, as is druid. And it's much easier to level a druid than a rogue- not only can you get instant heal/tank queues, but you aren't forced to level as a cat ever.

    so far leveling the rogue was the worst experience out of any other class. Everyone else has really strong aoe and ether some sort of defensive CD to repeatedly use for aoe pulling or even just a healing ability.
    I agree with this. I think the reason rogues are unpopular is that a rogue is the most useless piece of dirt in ALL of WoW, who no one wants on their team- up until you manage to get entirely set up in raid epics. That doesn't seem fair at all.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I will point, out, this is kind of an #heirloomproblem. If you don't have solid gear, you will build up more CPs.
    Not with the ss change lol.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I will point, out, this is kind of an #heirloomproblem. If you don't have solid gear, you will build up more CPs.



    But, this is a thing. It's also part of why I think that the 50 energy sinister won't really hurt leveling much. You are very likely to just kill the mob with the more powerful sinister- and who cares about the eviscerate!



    Feral is a spec.

    Rogue is a class, as is druid. And it's much easier to level a druid than a rogue- not only can you get instant heal/tank queues, but you aren't forced to level as a cat ever.



    I agree with this. I think the reason rogues are unpopular is that a rogue is the most useless piece of dirt in ALL of WoW, who no one wants on their team- up until you manage to get entirely set up in raid epics. That doesn't seem fair at all.
    Heirloom issues definately but I've also leveled up baby rogues on other servers to play with friends or during server down time and I ran into the same issue with grey/quest items. Hell I remember leveling up my rogue back in vanilla with leveling up my first character and having the same issue back then and wondering when I'd actually be able to use a 5 point evis since I was typically just using a ~3 point one.

    The energy change to SS will hurt more if you're trying to chain kill mobs because even in heirlooms after the first couple mobs you'll be out of energy and then sitting there waiting for a slow ass energy regen to use SS again.

    I mentioned feral just because they have the same cp limitations that rogues do since they were modeled after rogues although now they don't have as bad of limitations as rogues do and are so strong especially in PvP (but having a ranged kidney shot would break the game coughcyclonecoughcough) and ya I agree that leveling up my druid was a lot easier than my rogue either questing as a cat or queuing as a bear.

    MoP rogues felt like previous tiers of warriors did. Expansion starts and rogues are so shit. Rogues get gear and then by end tier are doing amazing. Combat energy regen is an exact correlation with warriors non-normalized rage gen in previous games. Which, blizzard thought was bad and changed it... and gave it to rogues... but without the heroic strike rage dump... awesome... "hey this mechanic in the game is horrible and it sucks having classes struggle so much at low level but then become gods at BiS... Let's get rid of it and make the leveling process/gearing up process smoother for warriors and fix the class... wait... I KNOW! Lets make rogues like this instead! /evil laugh"

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    First off unless you're fighting old content which doesn't matter rogues don't walk around one shotting things with envenom and if they are please tell me how since apparently I'm playing my class wrong. Secondly marked for death? Still don't one shot but lets me open with a finisher so according to you my RP world has just been blown away. Thirdly they're called combo points not setting someone up points. Just because I do a combination of moves doesn't mean they're only against one target. From an RP perspective look at Karate or other forms of martial arts. They have Katas that are designed with multiple opponents in mind where you chain a combination of moves against several targets. So "lore" "RP" whatever wise it'd make even more sense to be able to have CP on the rogue.
    Matrial Arts would be Monks, not Rogues.

    The only reason you want combo points on the rogue is because it would make it easier for you. This is just a QQ Buff Me thread, nothing more.

  13. #173
    Did you read thread?

    Or anything?

    Combo points are meant to relate to martial progression, and compromising a character. Rogues have a lot of ninja in them. Though, if your point is that monks should have a combo system on the target, I think it's telling that the devs were unwilling to do that- after all, it's a big part of why people complain about rogue alts and ignore them.

  14. #174
    I look at it like this, you gotta hit 'em with the left hook to set 'em up for your right cross. If you could just unload regardless, then what's the point of them being 'combo' points? Redirect is the exception, not the rule, and you still can't go back and fourth switching targets like mad without losing any efficiency. That's the way the class is built. I find it unlikely they will ever change it, despite what players might 'like'.

  15. #175
    1. you can use redirect without cooldown (talent)
    2. its essentially the same as having combo points on yourself if you ignore the 1 button press every time

    >rogue can talent what monk& pala get for free

  16. #176
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Masochism, it's rampant amongst hardcore gamers.
    Except hardcore gamers aren't asking for cp's to be on the target. I'm sure in your passive/aggressiveness you want to believe that though.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    Matrial Arts would be Monks, not Rogues.

    The only reason you want combo points on the rogue is because it would make it easier for you. This is just a QQ Buff Me thread, nothing more.
    The thing is that it's not a "buff me" thread. It's a quality of life thread and the "buff" would either be nonexistent based on how a lot of encounters work or very minor. Horridon is the best fight this tier that I can reference because that's that fight that many rogues spec MfD on which is essentially allowing rogues to open up with a finisher which according to a few people is game breaking. Would on that fight rogues damage sky rocket with cp on the rogue? Not a chance. Might have a slight increase but more than anything it'd just make the game play smoother and have a better flow rather than the stutter feel that it has now that while on adds it feels like you can never get going.

    Now for the people who say that the CP on a rogue would in fact dumb the class down I think it would in fact keep it at the same level or raise the skill cap because realistically rogues would be able to do more. Right now people just dump combo points on a 1-2 point envenom if a mob is about to die or if it dies just use a 1-2 point pos CT that possibly isn't even worth the energy spent on it. In a lot of cases sure you can plan your energy and CP usage out based on fight length but you could also do the same with CP on the rogue and figure that the mob is going to die soon so build up cp to open up on the next target. Would also make multi dotting more of a thing since you could more effectively multi dot without having to build up cp on the other target which on a fight like Meg has been shown to not be worth it. So even if you have cp on a rogue it doesn't necessarily dumb the class down. You still have to plan out your energy/cp usage for the best results.

  18. #178
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    The thing is that it's not a "buff me" thread. It's a quality of life thread and the "buff" would either be nonexistent based on how a lot of encounters work or very minor.
    To the trolls and simpletons who just don't get it, this x100000. Only one other spec has to worry about what target they are stacking points on - Feral Druids - and their points should also stack on the player.

    Every other class only has to worry about buffs / debuffs on their target. Rogues and Ferals have to worry about that in addition to combo points and doing everything else a melee has to do in any given encounter. Meanwhile, ranged can run around insta-casting at anything and everything they desire...

    This is a simple quality of life change. It has nothing to do with being buffed. The currently system has nothing to do with "skill" and everything to do with "outdated annoyance."
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    To the trolls and simpletons who just don't get it, this x100000. Only one other spec has to worry about what target they are stacking points on - Feral Druids - and their points should also stack on the player.

    Every other class only has to worry about buffs / debuffs on their target. Rogues and Ferals have to worry about that in addition to combo points and doing everything else a melee has to do in any given encounter. Meanwhile, ranged can run around insta-casting at anything and everything they desire...

    This is a simple quality of life change. It has nothing to do with being buffed. The currently system has nothing to do with "skill" and everything to do with "outdated annoyance."
    You say annoyance.. i say challenge/fun game play.

    You dont like it, play something else. Dont make me a fucking paladin.. i hate the way it works with holy power.. That is why im NOT playing a paladin. I dont want your quality of life change cause you don't want to play the actual game offered, or how its designed. I LIKE having to worry about something.. making it more of a different way to think instead of the 'holy power' format which is just plain - BORING.

    And to be honest i dont give a shit what other classes got, i don't play rogue cause i want another mage or hunter..

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    You say annoyance.. i say challenge/fun game play.

    You dont like it, play something else. Dont make me a fucking paladin.. i hate the way it works with holy power.. That is why im NOT playing a paladin. I dont want your quality of life change cause you don't want to play the actual game offered, or how its designed. I LIKE having to worry about something.. making it more of a different way to think instead of the 'holy power' format which is just plain - BORING.

    And to be honest i dont give a shit what other classes got, i don't play rogue cause i want another mage or hunter..
    yes worrying about CP's vanish into thin air is so much fun
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

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