Why don't people want combo points on the player?

[Espe]

I dont want your quality of life change cause you don't want to play the actual game offered, or how its designed. I LIKE having to worry about something.. making it more of a different way to think instead of the 'holy power' format which is just plain - BORING.

And to be honest i dont give a shit what other classes got, i don't play rogue cause i want another mage or hunter..

The game design changes all the time. Combo points stacking on the target and not the player never made sense, and now it is obviously a completely outdated concept.

No reason to be so combative, I do just fine on my Rogue. The fact of the matter is having combo points stack on the player instead of the target is just what you said it is, a quality of life change. It will not effect my dps in any significant manner; it is just an annoying, clunky and outdated design that needs to be fixed.

Also, from your post history it seems that you only raid LFR... maybe you shouldn't be so concerned with broken and outdated class design being fixed?

[Linneth]

Also, from your post history it seems that you only raid LFR... maybe you shouldn't be so concerned with broken and outdated class design being fixed?

Hold your horses, ad hominem isn't a good way to solve arguments.

You say annoyance.. i say challenge/fun game play.

You dont like it, play something else. Dont make me a fucking paladin.. i hate the way it works with holy power.. That is why im NOT playing a paladin. I dont want your quality of life change cause you don't want to play the actual game offered, or how its designed. I LIKE having to worry about something.. making it more of a different way to think instead of the 'holy power' format which is just plain - BORING.

And to be honest i dont give a shit what other classes got, i don't play rogue cause i want another mage or hunter..

When I rolled a Rogue during TBC I didn't have to deal with rupture multidotting and AoE mayhem, which is where Combo Points are failing to provide fluid gameplay. Perhaps the class needs to change just like the game has changed since then. I personally have no problem if they don't put Combo Points on the Rogue, but they need to address Redirect/AoE/Anticipation buggy behaviour.

[Deleted]

You dont like it, play something else. Dont make me a fucking paladin.. i hate the way it works with holy power..

So basically, Holy Paladins play like Rogues, with CPs on the player and not the target?

And to be honest i dont give a shit what other classes got

I thought you just brought up Holy Paladins as a reason rogues SHOULDNT have CPs on the player..
Remember? how that would make us platewearing healers and all that.

[SynergyDarkstar]

Paladins are a bit of a point of contention with me. Not only did they get a version of CPs on themselves (along with most other classes), but they get Anticipation just for existing long enough to hit 86 AND an actual UI element added to show their extra HP. The UI thing specifically is indicative of Blizzard's laziness and apathy when it comes to rogues, where our toys (Bandit's Guile especially, Anticipation) are relegated to the buff bar when other classes get custom-designed UI elements.

But back on topic, as long as they continue to make highly complex boss fights with the current technology, and as long as CPs are on the target CP issues will remain.

[wrynil]

The game design changes all the time. Combo points stacking on the target and not the player never made sense, and now it is obviously a completely outdated concept.

No reason to be so combative, I do just fine on my Rogue. The fact of the matter is having combo points stack on the player instead of the target is just what you said it is, a quality of life change. It will not effect my dps in any significant manner; it is just an annoying, clunky and outdated design that needs to be fixed.

Also, from your post history it seems that you only raid LFR... maybe you shouldn't be so concerned with broken and outdated class design being fixed?

It always made sense, but you just seem not to get it. If they keep going further and further away from rpg and into a mmo only game the game will suck. It will get plain boring, which is the way its turning already, cause of all your 'quality of life changes'. If you find it clunky and outdated PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, really wtf, all who actually have fun with it should just go with your stupid changes that will make us yet another retribution paladin?

Right now its such small differences between classes, and even blizzard have stated they might have taken it a step too far. I need to feel different, i like the way it works, it dont feel clunky or outdated to me, it makes for a fun gameplay for me to try and keep my head wrapped around where my cps are, dot up stuff with rupture through cp, find the damn cps if they get lost on some unit, and mostly its not even at the serious times as most fights dont have that many adds to switch from. All it will do is making the game more boring and make it easier for noobs who cant seem to work their heads around which mobs got rupture, how do i find my cps if its not on the current target (useally fok).

And i hardly never raid LFR, i don't know where you get this. As if you read my posts its pretty clear i hate lfr and what it has done. It was a quality of life change aswell that fucked up communities more than anything, it is a barrier for alot of new players to even get to see normal cause they don't get the same experience of the game as we did when we started (players before lfr).

So basically, Holy Paladins play like Rogues, with CPs on the player and not the target?


I thought you just brought up Holy Paladins as a reason rogues SHOULDNT have CPs on the player..
Remember? how that would make us platewearing healers and all that.

Did you just.. really.. did you just tell me that you put my context into a HOLY paladins view and not a retribution, a melee dps as rogue? I'm reasoning why when all of you say ' but they got this and that' is something i dont give a shit about. And i still dont. Saying the other classes got this and they got that is just not a valid point AT ALL, but you still use it as one which is just.. freaking stupid you see? You should just play a game with one class one race if you want what everyone else got.

[Deleted]

Did you just.. really.. did you just tell me that you put my context into a HOLY paladins view and not a retribution, a melee dps as rogue? I'm reasoning why when all of you say ' but they got this and that' is something i dont give a shit about. And i still dont. Saying the other classes got this and they got that is just not a valid point AT ALL, but you still use it as one which is just.. freaking stupid you see? You should just play a game with one class one race if you want what everyone else got.

Well I just wanted to highlight the amount of exaggeration you pull by saying this change would make rogues into pallys (even ret), and you dont want to play a pally.
I´ll confess to never having played pally cause there always seemed to be a ton of them already, it´s always been lowest on my list when picking a new alt.

For me this isnt about what other classes have, it never was, I´ve been somewhat wanting this since vanilla tbh.
Not dying for it, but it would be nice, I always thought it´d be nice. (like the fact that I dont have to craft and haul around my poison in the inventory anymore, is nice, was a bit annoying to realize you were out, mid dungeon, cause you werent going anywhere at that point)
And I dont think the window should have closed just cause it´s been introduced elsewhere since.

There must be better ways to keep rotations interesting and allow for more skillbased min/max then a "move CP button" on a 10 sec CD (if that glyph goes live).
Meanwhile on my lvl40 alt (which is entirely bereft of heirlooms) I dont even have redirect, and I have skinning, so basically I get SnD up and then the rest of the CPs are gone to the wind (or rather I just dump it into recoup before skinning), while on my monk alt, they decay but I wont loose them all if there are mobs nearby. (now this is the point where you say "But I dont want to play a monk" and again, to me the way it works on Monks just validates what a lot of rogues has asked for since vanilla.)

on my main I dont really have that much issue though, you generate CPs so fast and there is more time to spend them, plus I can redirect when I need to, and loosing a few CPs isnt going to entirely kill my dps anyway.
Not that Im doing any cutting edge raiding in any case.
So Im not loosing any sleep over it.. just think it´d be a nice change.
And you dont, thats fine, but it wont make us paladins, and you know that.

[wrynil]

Well I just wanted to highlight the amount of exaggeration you pull by saying this change would make rogues into pallys (even ret), and you dont want to play a pally.
I´ll confess to never having played pally cause there always seemed to be a ton of them already, it´s always been lowest on my list when picking a new alt.

For me this isnt about what other classes have, it never was, I´ve been somewhat wanting this since vanilla tbh.
Not dying for it, but it would be nice, I always thought it´d be nice. (like the fact that I dont have to craft and haul around my poison in the inventory anymore, is nice, was a bit annoying to realize you were out, mid dungeon, cause you werent going anywhere at that point)
And I dont think the window should have closed just cause it´s been introduced elsewhere since.

There must be better ways to keep rotations interesting and allow for more skillbased min/max then a "move CP button" on a 10 sec CD (if that glyph goes live).
Meanwhile on my lvl40 alt (which is entirely bereft of heirlooms) I dont even have redirect, and I have skinning, so basically I get SnD up and then the rest of the CPs are gone to the wind (or rather I just dump it into recoup before skinning), while on my monk alt, they decay but I wont loose them all if there are mobs nearby. (now this is the point where you say "But I dont want to play a monk" and again, to me the way it works on Monks just validates what a lot of rogues has asked for since vanilla.)

on my main I dont really have that much issue though, you generate CPs so fast and there is more time to spend them, plus I can redirect when I need to, and loosing a few CPs isnt going to entirely kill my dps anyway.
Not that Im doing any cutting edge raiding in any case.
So Im not loosing any sleep over it.. just think it´d be a nice change.
And you dont, thats fine, but it wont make us paladins, and you know that.

I like redirect. Though at lower levels it would be nice if it would reset after a kill (could do so on higher level). But it would be pretty much Marked for death i guess. Then again i never felt bad about not using my cps, or it it was my sinister strike killing the mob as i could just use snd/recup (once you get them at least). I never however leveled a rogue with heirlooms, but as all other classes (which i actually have leveled with heirlooms = all but rogue) are stupid with heirlooms, destroying the game designs, but heirlooms should not be what classes are tuned around anyhow.

It will make the gap smaller and smaller and i'm personally against this whole deal blizzard have had going on. Differences are cool in my opinion.

[Kael]

It always made sense, but you just seem not to get it. If they keep going further and further away from rpg and into a mmo only game the game will suck. It will get plain boring, which is the way its turning already, cause of all your 'quality of life changes'. If you find it clunky and outdated PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, really wtf, all who actually have fun with it should just go with your stupid changes that will make us yet another retribution paladin?

COOL IT.

I really don't see the only difference between rogues and ret pallies being that ret pallies don't lose combo points when switching targets. You've already got the same function provided you spend 1 GCD using redirect + glyphed it - it's a hassle (spending a GCD and a button and a glyph slot) for something everyone else whose resource model was based off of rogues gets baseline. If needing to hit redirect is the only difference between rogues and ret pallies, wouldn't we be ret pallies on single target already? This is the major flaw in your argument.

When it comes down to it, in PvE content having combo points on the rogue is an EXTREMELY minor change. In the event that a target dissipates rather than dying, or dies before you want it to, or leaves melee range, your combo points are no longer almost-useless-unless-you-hit-redirect. I'm not sure how that generates as wide a discussion as this has. I don't see the need to leave this archaic system of needing to "move" your CP when you switch targets in, when we already pay no significant penalty for doing so, but receive mechanical issues in some situations as a result of our current mechanical system.

[Verain]

I disagree about it not being a large penalty in PvE. I think it's more a PvE issue than anywhere else.

Muga, is it possible that you actually don't play your rogue in the same way you would play another class, and don't even THINK about it by now because it is second nature? I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, but if rogue is the ONLY different class like this...

Here's an example. You are in a stack of Horridon mobs- say, the third door. You have two combo points on a little add at around 70%. That guy has the marked for death debuff, because you said hello with a 5 point envenom, because that is how rogues say hello. Next to you is a little add at 30%, running towards a healer (he fixates). Also next to you is a big add at 85%- but he has a LOT more health than the little ones. A 50% small add is also nearby, fixated on another melee.

As a rogue, you know what you'll do- you'll pump your energy into that 70% little add, and kill him. You are way too invested in him. If you were a ret / warrior / DK / enhancement, you would PROBABLY switch to the little guy running to the healer- you would quickly get him to execute range, and some of those examples have a good execute. Mutilate has a good execute too, but you'd be throwing away too much stuff to do it. That's not the same, even with redirect- what YOU do in this relatively common example is changed entirely by your combo point setup. Now, in my example, what's better for the raid? Probably what the other guys intuitively do is the wiser choice. You are stuck making a decision pretty much constantly that favors the state in 15 seconds versus the state in 5 seconds, and another class always picks the second and gets the first for free.

And if you could multidot in that example, you would do that, and then focus your licorice beam on the 30% add so he doesn't reach the healer. But it's not really fair to compare across roles as such.




----


On another note, I have decided that I definitely don't want combo points on the PLAYER. I think they would probably knock over my drink, and that's assuming my goddamned dogs don't eat them. Combo points look cherry flavored, but they are pretty indiscriminate- judging by my socks, their favorite flavor is Feet, so I'd have a hard time staying at 5 combo points with them in the room.

[mongoose6]

I would miss combo points on the target. It creates decision points in both PVE and PVP that punish poor decisions and reward good decisions. However, at least as far as PVE is concerned, these decisions tend to have a minimal effect on the overall encounter. PVP wise, the punishment for mismanaging your CP's is harsh while the reward is.....not getting punished lol. I'm fine with it either way, but I don't think Blizzard will ever change the way CP's build because the current system fits with their overall view of the class.

[Kael]

It's a fair criticism that I'm used to having that disability. Recently, though, with the glyph for redirect I've found it (really unnatural) but reasonable to switch targets frequently. It just feels really off to switch to that new add, and before attacking, hit redirect. I'm saying that the difference from (0 CD) redirect and CP on rogue is minimal for PvE (1 GCD per swap).

Granted that could be an issue for combat, but less so for assassination. It still doesn't feel right, but the damage gained isn't that huge when you switch from needing to hit redirect to not needing to hit redirect. The biggest gain is in mechanical errors or stupidity (like vanishing enemies causing vanishing CP, or dead mob FoK envy).

[Warstar]

Ret paladins play nothing like rogues resource system aside. Even with the random crit bonus cp we get rogues are a very static keep up this use this spend that random dispatch here combat is even more static especially with anticipation with keep up RS spam this keep up this spend that.

Ret on the other hand is very CD oriented with a lot of their CDs getting random procs to be up again and is a fcfs model.

Even if you changed rogues to cp on the player, made anticipation baseline, gave a UI element to it since the buff is buggy as shit anyways just like redirect is buggy as shit and the most inconsistent ability in the game the game play would still be completely different. Where people come from saying that rogues will turn into ret paladins I don't know. That one angry guy said that cp on the player would be boring but I have to say that cp on the target is was more boring because that leads to a loss of 5 point finishers which everyone knows seeing big flashy numbers is what's exciting about a dps. So being able to use those 1-2 lost cp to build up to a 5 point finisher easier to see a nice big envenom crit would at least in my eyes make the class more exciting and less of a let down of "well shit I'm aoeing and the target died with 2 cp on it... here's a lame CT.... God this is stupid".

Personaly for me the times that I find I enjoy my rogue the least are in a mass add fight where I constantly lose cp and in a Horridon type fight where I feel like I'm stuttering and can never get going. In my game play single target patchwerk fight the way my rogue feels is that in the begining I'm setting up stuff. Not with building cp to use finishers but really getting my various finishers up to begin with and then once everything is set and ready to go then I can pop CDs have a fun little burst session and then once that's over I can get into my normal rotation and play the maximize envenom game which has a nice flow to it with using vanish to add the extra cp that you need here and there and what not. Versus on horridon where I attack a mob, get a 2-3 point rupture up, MfD and then finish because by golly if I don't finish that add it's going to sit up there with 2% hp and my MfD is not going to get off CD and I'm going to be pissed as hell. So I'm not going to be a team player and help out I'm going to tunnel down target by target because if I don't then that'll potentially screw me over greatly. Mean while each mob I get to dies too fast that I can't really do anything. The best analogy for rogues on horridon is the red light race from meet the parents. Green light Go! Romp on that gas pedal speed up and then 2 seconds later slam on your breaks and start over again. It's the worst feeling ever as a rogue having to deal with that. Mean while the warrior next to you is just laying waste with his normal rotation and not really caring at all in fact probably loving it with using blade storm when the adds get packed up to fluff their damage a lot.

Now, if rogues had cp on the player rather than the target then there wouldn't nessesarily be that stop and go feel but more of the general flow that rogues get into. Granted you'd still be changing up your rotation for each mob but it wouldn't be as bad as it is now by leaps and bounds.

[mongoose6]

Even if you changed rogues to cp on the player, made anticipation baseline, gave a UI element to it since the buff is buggy as shit anyways just like redirect is buggy as shit and the most inconsistent ability in the game the game play would still be completely different. Where people come from saying that rogues will turn into ret paladins I don't know. That one angry guy said that cp on the player would be boring but I have to say that cp on the target is was more boring because that leads to a loss of 5 point finishers which everyone knows seeing big flashy numbers is what's exciting about a dps. So being able to use those 1-2 lost cp to build up to a 5 point finisher easier to see a nice big envenom crit would at least in my eyes make the class more exciting and less of a let down of "well shit I'm aoeing and the target died with 2 cp on it... here's a lame CT.... God this is stupid".

What you don't like about it is the reason many people like it. Yes you get punished for losing out on that nice big envenom, but meaningful decision points is what makes the game fun for some while big flashy numbers are only rewarding if you had to work for them.

I totally agree that no matter where the cp's stack, we still wouldn't play like a ret pally.

[Deleted]

One argument I've not seen come up in this (refreshingly interesting) thread is that bound to any restrictive gameplay is an opportunity to perform well.

Rune of Power is a highly restrictive talent. Accordingly, any mage who circumvents the restrictions end up getting more bang for the buck than from any other talent in that tier. Similarly, it would stand to reason that changing CP to the player would cause a rebalancing of our output in multi-target situations. I wonder if those pro-change realize that their gained versatility would come at a cost of performance...

The way I see it, the discussion is not whether restrictive resources like rogue combo points are bad for the game. It's whether this particular design could be tweaked to create more compelling game play. CP on target is not the problem - not getting sufficient compensation is.

[mongoose6]

One argument I've not seen come up in this (refreshingly interesting) thread is that bound to any restrictive gameplay is an opportunity to perform well.

Rune of Power is a highly restrictive talent. Accordingly, any mage who circumvents the restrictions end up getting more bang for the buck than from any other talent in that tier. Similarly, it would stand to reason that changing CP to the player would cause a rebalancing of our output in multi-target situations. I wonder if those pro-change realize that their gained versatility would come at a cost of performance...

The way I see it, the discussion is not whether restrictive resources like rogue combo points are bad for the game. It's whether this particular design could be tweaked to create more compelling game play. CP on target is not the problem - not getting sufficient compensation is.

Which is why I like the solution proposed by Linneth. It would maintain the restrictive gameplay that forces meaningfull decisions while correcting the mechanical bug of disappearing combo points.

[Deleted]

If you find it clunky and outdated PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, really wtf, all who actually have fun with it should just go with your stupid changes that will make us yet another retribution paladin?

As a matter of fact: most players did go play something else.
It is the reason why the rogue population is at an all time low. And to a lesser extent part of the reason why some people stopped playing WoW all together.

[Deleted]

As a matter of fact: most players did go play something else.
It is the reason why the rogue population is at an all time low. And to a lesser extent part of the reason why some people stopped playing WoW all together.

I think you mean the right thing, but just to be sure: the decline in rogue population can't in any way be attributed to what we're discussing here. Blizzard's best estimates on what's caused the decline includes changes to world PvP and ganking, as well as the introduction of DKs. However, rogue CPs haven't been changed since beta so I have a hard time seeing the recent introduction of holy power/chi play a big part there.

My personal opinion is that it's because of how underwhelming the class feels until you reach level cap. (Which, according to WoWCensus, 44% of the player base haven't.)

[Verain]

One argument I've not seen come up in this (refreshingly interesting) thread is that bound to any restrictive gameplay is an opportunity to perform well.

Rune of Power is a highly restrictive talent. Accordingly, any mage who circumvents the restrictions end up getting more bang for the buck than from any other talent in that tier. Similarly, it would stand to reason that changing CP to the player would cause a rebalancing of our output in multi-target situations.

I did actually bring this up in one of my first posts in this thread. I believe rogues get consideration for their combo points- it is one of the factors that goes into tuning the class.

Here's what I said earlier in the thread though:
"Anyway- if combo points were put on the rogue for all three specs (and presumably also for cats), I'm betting that the class would be tuned lower (and so would feral). And I don't want that. The devs absolutely grant us consideration for our Victorian-era ankle-fetish resource system. Which is why I wouldn't mind seeing one of our specs with the CPs on the rogue- it's likely that even if that was tuned a wee bit lower on a Patchwerk, you would still see rogues playing it and getting good mileage out of it on the content that rewards it."

I wonder if those pro-change realize that their gained versatility would come at a cost of performance...

I don't know if they do. But, I also think there's room for me and them in the same class. You see, some rogue specs are already tuned low.

The way I see it, the discussion is not whether restrictive resources like rogue combo points are bad for the game. It's whether this particular design could be tweaked to create more compelling game play. CP on target is not the problem - not getting sufficient compensation is.

I think I can make a pretty solid case that mutilate has solid compensation on live for the combo point system as it is. I can also make a case that, say, combat rogue combo points should be on the rogue. In your rune of power example, you didn't tell all mages to go roll warlock, did you? No, a mage who doesn't want to fuck with rune on some fight, or on ANY fight, never needs to.

- - - Updated - - -

My personal opinion is that it's because of how underwhelming the class feels until you reach level cap. (Which, according to WoWCensus, 44% of the player base haven't.)

I've done rants on exactly this point as well. A rogue feels like shit all the way up until you have raid gear. You level slower, you can't pull easily, and until very recent changes, you had no mobility either (rogues now quest with plenty of speed and mobility, but still level slower than other classes). Rogues in dungeons have the longest queue like mages, hunters, and locks, but are stuck with a lame job, especially in a dungeon where mobs are often in multiple places at once (aka, healer might be tanking two mobs over here, one is feared over there, tank has two, mage rooted two over there). The rogue is completely unable to contribute in this situation as other classes can, and even in the ideal situation his single target damage is tuned way too low compared to everyone else.

This continues until you are in solid gear at whatever the maximum level is, at which point, your strengths begin to show.


However- don't pretend that combo points on the rogue aren't a problem HERE either. Leveling my paladin, she can walk up to mobs and open with wherever she was in her rotation- and that can be templar's verdict. Leveling a second rogue everything is much slower.

There needs to be a way to have combo points on the rogue, and and that spec could easily find a home in raids as well. We're a whole class, remember. A whole big class with three specs that should have as much work put into us as the druid class gets on them.

[Deleted]

However- don't pretend that combo points on the rogue aren't a problem HERE either. Leveling my paladin, she can walk up to mobs and open with wherever she was in her rotation- and that can be templar's verdict. Leveling a second rogue everything is much slower.

Combo points aren't the problem - the lack of compensation is. Numerous tweaks have been mentioned in this thread that would remove the 'leftover spill', and I could add my own to the list:

Glyph of the Unrelenting: Upon killing an enemy that yields experience or honor, any remaining combo points on that target are consumed to extend your Slice and Dice and Recuperate duration by 2 sec per combo point. Can only extend up to 60 sec.

Now. I'm not a game designer so this might well be a horrible suggestion for a range of reasons I haven't thought of. But the point is that I'd much rather see a fix on the side effects of the resource model, than trying to redesign the resource model.

[Aleksej89]

Bursting down the healer with combo builders (plus poisons/SnD/rupture...) and then just Kidney Shot his melee teammate that came to peel you off.

One of the typical examples blizzard gave years ago when they talked about combo points for Rogues/Druids being on the player and not on the target.

In other words, both rogue & druid are not balanced (designed) around the concept of having combo points on themselves.

Combo points are a sort of investment to focus down a designated target - moving CP to the rogue/druid suddenly allows them to inflict any combo finisher on any target in range, with little or no warning at all.

It would be a huge boost in pvp capabilities, and would require significant retuning to make it balanced.

EDIT: Also to point out, when your combo point target dies your combo points are still on it's corpse!
You can use them to Redirect to another target, or to expend them on SnD, Recoup or Tempest.
However, in many cases the CP will disappear if the corpse disappears, the player releases spirit from corpse or any similar thing happens.