View Poll Results: Do you like having content only be there for 2-4 weeks?

Voters
225. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it's good that it's 90% temporary and the 2-4 weeks is perfect.

    35 15.56%
  • Yes, though it could last more.

    29 12.89%
  • I'm on the fence about the issue.

    19 8.44%
  • No, it should last a lot more if it's temporary.

    17 7.56%
  • No, most content should be permanent, only special events should be temporary.

    125 55.56%
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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Yes, actually. It happens all the time. For months at a time in some cases too.

    In the case of tiered systems, the endgame is often pushed or reset anew every so often. Thus players are in a perpetual state of at endgame followed by end of game. Which again, is not game over.

    None of the Guild Wars games reset the end of game. They end absolutely thus far.

    Hmm, endgame sounds like a very fluid concept. So when GW2 releases Ascended armor and weapons this year (according to your definition) it will suddenly have endgame again?
    Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    It's not worth the discussion, really. The "definitive end" is whatever Fencers defines, so arguing with her about it will go nowhere as she doesn't recognize that arbitrary definition as an opinion others may not share.

    GW2, like GW1, has a point where your stats do not change anymore, that is what Fencers considers a definitive end. (Though she mentioned "personal story" complete, which opens it to story which is obviously still ongoing since we're discussing the living story in this thread, and didn't include ascended gear.)
    Gameplay is objective fact. It could not be anything but. Or video games could not be made, literally.

    How one feels about this or that aspect of gameplay is up to them. That is personal. That is opinion.

    Hmm, endgame sounds like a very fluid concept. So when GW2 releases Ascended armor and weapons this year (according to your definition) it will suddenly have endgame again?
    Sure. If ascended gear will be used outside of a singular game mode. Such as in mundane or structured PVE that forms the drive and play systems of the core gameplay- events, PS, class skills, etc. AN would have succeed in adding a limited stage of the game that is set just prior to completion.

    There are actually quite a lot of thoughtful papers written on the distinction of the middle and endgame. Though most intellectual exercises of such agree that the endgame is defined by lack of moves/options/pieces just prior to completion of the game. Or goal, when the term is used in the context of other play systems outside of Chess specifically. [Don't confuse this aspect with Endgame Theory. Which though related is not necessarily the same.]

    Ascended gear is not an actual progression system in GW2 outside of a limited game mode, however. Where it is only a gating function transposed to gear. There are no core play systems in GW2 that drive ascended gear or the mechanics agony.

    *Do keep in mind, games can have an endgame sans progression system. So it's not as though adding ascended gear to open world or dungeon PVE is the only possible manner of adding an "endgame" to GW2. Which I suspect is a parallel you might be drawing from other linear, closed system MMORPGs such as Everquest or World of Warcraft. Where they do have a kind of "forever" mode of endgame- though this is usually arbitrarily set in the case of 1st & 2nd wave MMOs.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-18 at 03:41 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Not only is this blatantly not true, it's practically slander. While I'm sure they would like people to pay as much as possible, they certainly don't design the game to that effect. Though I did notice you used incentives and not a negative word, but your implication is that the game's content suffers by default of being part of a grand manipulation.

    That's just really not the case.
    GW2 has two major root problems (ignoring stupid mechanics like downed state for the moment) that are responsible for most of its shortcomings:

    1. Inconveniences/Quality of Life issues that are remedied by the cash shop. The game is filled with them. Guess why there is so much inventory clutter? So that people buy that additional bag slot. Guess why your bank is shared between characters and you can't mail items to yourself without a proxy? So people buy additional bank slots. Guess why Transmutation Stones (the backbone of one of the game's cornerstones, cosmetic sidegrades) can only be acquired through very tedious and limited tasks such as map completion? So people buy them on the cash shop instead. Guess why you only have 5 character slots when there are 8 classes and you have to do the tutorial before you can go to S/TPvP? So people buy additional character slots. Guess why you have to lug around gathering tools that further clutter up your inventory? So people buy the unlimited charges gathering tools or additional bag slots.

    2. Gold can be exchanged for gems and vice versa. This is the reason for the abundance of gold sinks in GW2. Without them people would spend less real cash on gems or you'd get inflation. Guess why Waypoints cost silver? Gold sink (and convenience issue, as you often have the choice between spending silver or enduring more loading screens, or walking). Guess why the Trading Post is global, actually a web page and has a built-in undercut feature? So that the average player cannot make much money from common items (as they trend toward vendor price, and in the case of salvaged stuff usually beneath the return you'd get from vendoring the unsalvaged item). Guess why there are diminishing returns on farming? Guess why the static crafting costs (vendor mats) make up such a big part of your crafting expenses? Guess why... I hope you're getting the point by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tintenkiller View Post
    This is an issue I find appalling myself. I returned after not logging in for several months, only to find all those nasty bugs and quality of life issues still to be there. Karma-farming was replaced with Champion-farming but that's it.
    The AH still offers no options to filter for certain armor types (light, medium, heavy). Personal story bugs are still there/being reimplemented. There's still certain lines in my language that aren't synchronized in the personal story (you're having a normal dialogue, one line is muted, then everything is fine again - this is reported and existent since ALPHA).

    Oh yeah, but we got a 2 week schedule of living story. Don't give me that crap, please fix your numerous bugs and issues first.
    The "Big Trait Revamp Patch" was probably the most hilarious part. Especially Ranger and Necro traits make zero sense in practice because they try to achieve conflicting results. What did that patch change, say, for Necros? Moved around a couple of traits between the tiers in the same tree. Added a tier 3 condition trait in the Power line. Merged one or two useless traits to make them a bit less useless. It's still a clusterfuck. Basic abilities still don't work properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Impossible. There is a definitive end to your progression in GW2. It's a hard ceiling. Players are not held in the perpetual almost done phase of contemporary MMOs.

    An Endgame is the penultimate stage before the game is complete. In GW2 the game completes absolutely.*

    The rest of the stuff about bugs is again, transitory. Not really anything a player should care about, though admittedly annoying at times.


    *A "completed" game is not the same as being able to continue playing the game. Endgame is not game over, per se. An endgame is complete when the goals of the game are reached- victory, end of progression, narrative end, etc.
    With the Achievement tiers, Glory Rank and WvW Rank the players very much are in a state of "perpetual 'almost done'". Especially in the context of Living World because there's a time limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Level 80 exotic geared, personal story complete. Traits and skills unlocked. The core gameplay has ended at that point.
    Only until AN decides to introduce the next tier of gear, exactly as in other MMOs.

    "Ascended armor and weapons will become available from rare drops and from crafting." - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upco...s_and_features

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Ascended gear is not an actual progression system in GW2 outside of a limited game mode, however. Where it is only a gating function transposed to gear. There are no core play systems in GW2 that drive ascended gear or the mechanics agony.
    WvW.
    Last edited by Feranor; 2013-08-18 at 03:46 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Feranor View Post
    GW2 has two major root problems (ignoring stupid mechanics like downed state for the moment) that are responsible for most of its shortcomings:
    1. Inconveniences/Quality of Life issues that are remedied by the cash shop.
    This seems to be an ongoing shortcoming of Arena.net in general. Historically speaking, AN are not the keenest developers of secondary systems or UI. And to a degree, control interfaces.

    Some of which is indeed, subjective QoL issues from GW1 to present. Others are absolute shortcomings- like filtering trading post results or body sliding.

    With the Achievement tiers, Glory Rank and WvW Rank the players very much are in a state of "perpetual 'almost done'". Especially in the context of Living World because there's a time limit.
    You can't actually progress through those achievements or ranks though. They are mostly cosmetic or inconsequential to the core gameplay. As is the living story- a narrative that unlike the PS, has no express or direct drive throughout the games as the PS. Which is impressed from level 1, by default.

    Only until AN decides to introduce the next tier of gear, exactly as in other MMOs.
    Which they have never done in any of the five Guild Wars games. Thus far. I said specifically, thus far above.

    I addressed the concept of newly added ascended gear in reply to another poster.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Gameplay is objective fact. It could not be anything but. Or video games could not be made, literally.

    How one feels about this or that aspect of gameplay is up to them. That is personal. That is opinion.
    Your use of words with specific definitions to yourself does not mean that those definitions are universal to the community or audience, you use them as if they are and mix your opinions into those definitions. "Gameplay" might mean different things in the scope of a discussion, so it is NOT objective fact.

    "Endgame" for example, is not a fixed definition, and is discussed in generalities for that reason. Because others share your opinion of what "Endgame" means does not mean it's the only one, nor the right one, and it can only be defined in specific form within the context of a specific discussion. But, you don't discuss things in that fashion, which usually leads to multipage diversions from the topic as people discuss things in a general sense while you tell them they're wrong because of your own narrow definition.

  6. #46
    As somebody who has never played GW2, I find it intriguing that people cry about WoW's content coming out too slowly, and people cry about GW2's content coming out too quickly.

    Just an interesting observation.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Some of which is indeed, subjective QoL issues from GW1 to present. Others are absolute shortcomings- like filtering trading post results or body sliding.
    It actually amazes me how everyone tries to reinvent the auction house concept with each new game and somehow misses the most basic functions of one...

    I mean, at least WoW just says "screw it, let the add-on guys do it" to an extent. In some of these discussions you can only say X is okay simply because other games are so much WORSE.

    Bag space will never be enough though, I'd think. Providing a cash method for increasing it doesn't seem like creating an inconvenience just to cure it via money. At least you can deposit collectibles to save space.

    Character slots, same thing, it's an entirely arbritrary distinction of how may is "right". There are five slots for five races, so that syncs in the ability to give you the five stories. But there are also 3 versions of each story, and 8 classes... and some folks like myself will never have enough slots.

    You can't actually progress through those achievements or ranks though. They are mostly cosmetic or inconsequential to the core gameplay. As is the living story- a narrative that unlike the PS, has no express or direct drive throughout the games as the PS. Which is impressed from level 1, by default.
    I don't know that the personal story has any more bearing than the achievement system, really. It is a measurable system of finishing "something", sure, but it doesn't matter in your ability to complete anything ELSE in the game, as it were.

    I addressed the concept of newly added ascended gear in reply to another poster.
    My mention of Ascended was not in the sense of "what may come", but in regards to what is currently in the system. If full exotics is a measure of "doneness", then the ascended backpacks/trinkets would fit into that concept.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    So according to Fencers, when the game launched it had no endgame since there was max gear that could be obtained.

    Then in November when Ascended rings and back items were introduced (which could only be obtained in Fractals and which was needed to progress in Fractals) the game suddenly got endgame again.

    In January when Ascended amulets were introduced the game magically got endgame again.

    In February when Ascended accessories were introduced (which could only be obtained through Guild Commendations from Guild Missions) the game superfragicalistically got endgame again!

    Now with Ascended armor and weapons on their way, I guess we get even more endgame!

    But Fencers doesn't want to count gear now. She has some other kind of mystery progression in mind. How about new abilities to learn? Those are coming this year as well.

    And I'm pretty darn sure no one has progressed their World Ability Points to unlock all the skills in WvW.
    Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolicious View Post
    As somebody who has never played GW2, I find it intriguing that people cry about WoW's content coming out too slowly, and people cry about GW2's content coming out too quickly.

    Just an interesting observation.
    We're not allowed to compare games too directly, but some of the WoW additions are a good example of how content releases are "time limited" anyway. There is an artificial/building gating to them, so maybe it takes you a month to complete things, and after that initial rush of completions the zone becomes a ghost town.

    It depends on the content itself whether it can still be completed at that point of course.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Mmorpg is not a single player. It should never be designed the way where anyone can achieve anything no matter how bad or lazy he is.
    Players should be motivated to play on regular basis and players should be motivated to improve their own skill.

    Look at wow for example. Why to bother doing anything if you can get it later at any time, for example 2 years later when you can solo all the bosses? No wonder that it's losing subs.

    Look at the bright side: a new unique content every few weeks! More content that you can consume! That sounds like the best mmorpg in the world!
    Hardly any of the content in the updates requires a group to do. Hell, hardly any of the content in GW2 requires a group to do. 95% of the game is built to be soloable. GW2 is one of the most single player 'MMO's that exist, frankly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    They certainly do want you to keep playing because their revenue is sustained by cash shop purchases. This statement is so far from accurate I don't know what else to say. Not true in the slightest.
    Well when there's absolutely nothing at max level to keep me playing, then there's no reason for me to stick around and purchase anything from the cash shop. I've leveled the 3 classes that I liked and cleared all fractals and never once bought a single thing from the cash shop. I feel like I "beat the game" frankly, which really sucks for a game that's trying to fit in to the MMO genre. I see absolutely no reason to play it anymore until they add harder group content or add another tier of gear to go after which they likely will never ever do. They're not doing a very good job keeping me around to be lured in to the shop.
    Last edited by mistahwilshire; 2013-08-18 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Hardly any of the content in the updates requires a group to do. Hell, hardly any of the content in GW2 requires a group to do. 95% of the game is built to be soloable. GW2 is one of the most single player 'MMO's that exist, frankly.
    What are you talking about? Most dungeons cannot be solo'd. Fractals cannot be solo'd. Guild Missions certainly cannot be solo'd. WvW sure as hell cannot be solo'd. Most Champions cannot be solo'd. World bosses cannot be solo'd.

    Right this moment in the Queen's Pavilion you need a massive group to go into the pits. You might sneak down and pick a few mobs off from the outer edges but you certainly can't go in and solo that (nevermind good luck in finding an empty pavilion, they are all on overflow lol).
    Last edited by Karizee; 2013-08-18 at 04:30 PM.
    Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    What are you talking about? Most dungeons cannot be solo'd. Fractals cannot be solo'd. Guild Missions certainly cannot be solo'd. WvW sure as hell cannot be solo'd. Most Champions cannot be solo'd. World bosses cannot be solo'd.
    Exactly. About 5% of the game. Also most champions can* be solo'd.

    From the perspective of an Everquest/WoW/FFXI player, the majority of this game is leveling which is almost entirely a solo activity. Even the group events and such are almost all extremely easy to solo.

    Dungeons and Fractals were fun and yes they surely required groups, however after you do them once there's really no reason to ever do them again because there's hardly any point to gear in this game.

    WvW is great, sure...If you like PvP.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Your use of words with specific definitions to yourself does not mean that those definitions are universal to the community or audience, you use them as if they are and mix your opinions into those definitions. "Gameplay" might mean different things in the scope of a discussion, so it is NOT objective fact.
    Nope. It is a fact. How could I even program a game if I do not define the rules of interaction exactly?

    When a game is created the rules of interaction and play have to be set. That is all gameplay is- a system of rules by which one plays/interacts with to achieve the goal(s) of the game.

    Once again, how you feel about gameplay, That is the opinion part. The process of swinging a sword or firing laser pistol in Mutants of the Alpha Zone, is an absolute fact. That is gameplay. Because you can't play a video game any other way. There has to be rules that dictate play/interaction.

    "Endgame" for example, is not a fixed definition, and is discussed in generalities for that reason. Because others share your opinion of what "Endgame" means does not mean it's the only one, nor the right one, and it can only be defined in specific form within the context of a specific discussion. But, you don't discuss things in that fashion, which usually leads to multipage diversions from the topic as people discuss things in a general sense while you tell them they're wrong because of your own narrow definition.
    I did not say endgame had a fixed definition. In fact, I just said there was debate on what constitutes an endgame in various play systems. Though the commonality among most endgame scenarios is the stage of play before the game is complete. Completion being the goals of the game are achieved by the rules of gameplay.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-18 at 05:22 PM.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Exactly. About 5% of the game. Also most champions can* be solo'd.

    From the perspective of an Everquest/WoW/FFXI player, the majority of this game is leveling which is almost entirely a solo activity. Even the group events and such are almost all extremely easy to solo.

    Dungeons and Fractals were fun and yes they surely required groups, however after you do them once there's really no reason to ever do them again because there's hardly any point to gear in this game.

    WvW is great, sure...If you like PvP.

    I'll wait while you find me a vid of someone solo-ing the bosses in Queen's Pavilion.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    So according to Fencers, when the game launched it had no endgame since there was max gear that could be obtained.

    Then in November when Ascended rings and back items were introduced (which could only be obtained in Fractals and which was needed to progress in Fractals) the game suddenly got endgame again.

    In January when Ascended amulets were introduced the game magically got endgame again.

    In February when Ascended accessories were introduced (which could only be obtained through Guild Commendations from Guild Missions) the game superfragicalistically got endgame again!

    Now with Ascended armor and weapons on their way, I guess we get even more endgame!

    But Fencers doesn't want to count gear now. She has some other kind of mystery progression in mind. How about new abilities to learn? Those are coming this year as well.

    And I'm pretty darn sure no one has progressed their World Ability Points to unlock all the skills in WvW.
    I've come to realize that what Fencers says is the law and to disagree with that is disagreeing with the laws of physics/the universe. She seemingly knows EVERYTHING about video games and will continue to "argue" with you until you basically give up trying to prove her wrong and she "wins" so to speak. Now, she will obviously deny every bit of what I just said to the end of time, but honestly, that only proves the point that she tries so damn hard to prove what she says and does is right/the absolute truth......and heaven forbid you keep denying it. Especially if what we're talking about is purely based upon personal perception or opinion....to Fencers, such things cannot exist and you are wrong regardless of what you say (unless of course, you agree 100% with what she says).

    Know-it-all's are extremely annoying. I guess Fencers didn't get that memo.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    So according to Fencers, when the game launched it had no endgame since there was max gear that could be obtained.
    Guild Wars 2 still doesn't have an endgame. Progression stops totally by all the core gameplay systems.

    Video games are about gameplay. You can't make them otherwise or they cease being video games. Which is fine- but I am talking about a video game here.

    Then in November when Ascended rings and back items were introduced (which could only be obtained in Fractals and which was needed to progress in Fractals) the game suddenly got endgame again.
    GW2 did not gain endgame when fractals were introduced. Fractals are a singular game mode apart from the core gameplay.

    As far as I know agony only exists in a box, so to speak. Where it has no greater core gameplay drive than keg brawl or somesuch.

    In January when Ascended amulets were introduced the game magically got endgame again.
    As above.

    In February when Ascended accessories were introduced (which could only be obtained through Guild Commendations from Guild Missions) the game superfragicalistically got endgame again!
    As above.

    Now with Ascended armor and weapons on their way, I guess we get even more endgame!
    As above.

    But Fencers doesn't want to count gear now. She has some other kind of mystery progression in mind. How about new abilities to learn? Those are coming this year as well.
    One would count everything that is core to the gameplay of GW2. By default, in GW2 that is; the progression of one's character from level 1 to 80, the acquisition of gear to it's maximum level and the completion of the main narrative of the game (personal story).

    The above are the only things driven by the gameplay of GW2 to completion sans minigames- by turns finite [jumping puzzles] or never ending [keg brawl].

    Keep in mind an endgame implies an end of game, naturally. As it is the stage just before completion defined by the narrowing of play/pieces/options. That which has no definitive end or completion by rules is never at end of game. Though they can end locally [game over]; like a match of Checkers, sandbox Minecraft or Keg Brawl.

    And I'm pretty darn sure no one has progressed their World Ability Points to unlock all the skills in WvW.
    These are also endemic to a singular mode. One that is not even in line with the other PVP modes of the game.

    Where as gameplay such as movement, weapon skills, leveling hierarchy, UI interfaces, ability points, narrative interaction and so forth are the basis of all modes of play. That is the core gameplay of GW2. A hard rule as well.

    Now we could say, that one is in a state of WVW or Fractal endgame (to an extent). That would be fair within those singular modes, not in Guild Wars 2 as a video game. Which is as accurate a description of GW2's design as saying one is in a state of Jumping Puzzle endgame so long as they have not completed all JPs.

    This stuff is not mysterious or complicated. One simply looks at the core functions of the gameplay, what activities are driven by those functions to completion and the play systems that facilitate the end or reset [often the case in linear mmos] of core gameplay. All of this stuff in known and practiced in many game and play systems from Chess to cards to video games.

    For example, if we look at a very simple linear MMO such as SWTOR-

    The gameplay is based around the -/+ matchup of various character stats. One levels through quests and a primary campaign to a arbitrary maximum level. Increasing your maximum level aligns with the goal of increasing stats in your favor.

    At the point of maximum level one enters into a series actives designed to further statistical gains. Narrowing to only a few activities before a player achieves the ultimate goal facilitated by gameplay; maximum statistical gains.

    The point in which the gameplay, interaction within the rules, narrows is the Endgame. The part in which one completes the game goal is the end of game.

    One can still play the SWTOR at the end of game.

    There are other examples of an endgame such as in Morrowind, Fallout or Magic the Gathering. Just as an example of endgame in other genres besides MMOs. Which again, is pretty common!
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-18 at 05:25 PM. Reason: I meant to say narrative interaction. Which could also mean like plot too. Such as Doom or similiar games w/o much narrative.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    I've come to realize that what Fencers says is the law and to disagree with that is disagreeing with the laws of physics/the universe.
    Fencers is Sheldon Cooper, basically. She knows a lot, definitely, but does not separate out fact from opinion, simply because she does not recognize the difference most of the time.

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Ah Fencers, you keep moving this endgame goal around so much I can't keep track of it now! What I'm getting from all your wordiness is that you think since there is no ilvl required to unlock content there is no endgame?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    I've come to realize that what Fencers says is the law and to disagree with that is disagreeing with the laws of physics/the universe. She seemingly knows EVERYTHING about video games and will continue to "argue" with you until you basically give up trying to prove her wrong and she "wins" so to speak. Now, she will obviously deny every bit of what I just said to the end of time, but honestly, that only proves the point that she tries so damn hard to prove what she says and does is right/the absolute truth......and heaven forbid you keep denying it. Especially if what we're talking about is purely based upon personal perception or opinion....to Fencers, such things cannot exist and you are wrong regardless of what you say (unless of course, you agree 100% with what she says).

    Know-it-all's are extremely annoying. I guess Fencers didn't get that memo.

    She raced through to level 80 and pretty much stopped playing. Said things like completing 1 path in the dungeon counted as completing the dungeon, didn't do the new dungeons, hasn't been participating in the updates, etc. I think she thinks if she keeps up with the "no endgame" mantra that people will start believing it
    Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Fencers is Sheldon Cooper, basically. She knows a lot, definitely, but does not separate out fact from opinion, simply because she does not recognize the difference most of the time.
    That's actually a very good comparison! I like it! lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Ah Fencers, you keep moving this endgame goal around so much I can't keep track of it now! What I'm getting from all your wordiness is that you think since there is no ilvl required to unlock content there is no endgame?
    She does seem to keep jumping around alot doesn't she? She is practically contradicting herself between some of her posts. Hell, some of the things in GW2 she claims doesn't constitute end-game, she then turns around and says constitutes end-game in other MMOs. But heaven forbid we compare two MMOs to each other and draw the logical conclusion between the two.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    She raced through to level 80 and pretty much stopped playing. Said things like completing 1 path in the dungeon counted as completing the dungeon, didn't do the new dungeons, hasn't been participating in the updates, etc. I think she thinks if she keeps up with the "no endgame" mantra that people will start believing it
    Pretty much this. I feel her "facts" (*cough*, opinions, *cough*), are largely useless seeing as how she has participated so little in the game since, when? Last fall? For someone who I've seen claim to not care much about GW2 and overall is very bored with it, she tries ever so hard to make it known that she knows everything about it and will argue to the end of time on said game. But whatever. Guess some people need something to do with all their free time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Guild Wars 2 still doesn't have an endgame. Progression stops totally by all the core gameplay systems.

    Video games are about gameplay. You can't make them otherwise or they cease being video games. Which is fine- but I am talking about a video game here.

    GW2 did not gain endgame when fractals were introduced. Fractals are a singular game mode apart from the core gameplay.

    As far as I know agony only exists in a box, so to speak. Where it has no greater core gameplay drive than keg brawl or somesuch.

    As above.

    As above.

    As above.

    One would count everything that is core to the gameplay of GW2. By default, in GW2 that is; the progression of one's character from level 1 to 80, the acquisition of gear to it's maximum level and the completion of the main narrative of the game (personal story).

    The above are the only things driven by the gameplay of GW2 to completion sans minigames- by turns finite [jumping puzzles] or never ending [keg brawl].

    Keep in mind an endgame implies an end of game, naturally. As it is the stage just before completion defined by the narrowing of play/pieces/options. That which has no definitive end or completion by rules is never at end of game. Though they can end locally [game over]; like a match of Checkers, sandbox Minecraft or Keg Brawl.

    These are also endemic to a singular mode. One that is not even in line with the other PVP modes of the game.

    Where as gameplay such as movement, weapon skills, leveling hierarchy, UI interfaces, ability points, narrative interaction and so forth are the basis of all modes of play. That is the core gameplay of GW2. A hard rule as well.

    Now we could say, that one is in a state of WVW or Fractal endgame (to an extent). That would be fair within those singular modes, not in Guild Wars 2 as a video game. Which is as accurate a description of GW2's design as saying one is in a state of Jumping Puzzle endgame so long as they have not completed all JPs.

    This stuff is not mysterious or complicated. One simply looks at the core functions of the gameplay, what activities are driven by those functions to completion and the play systems that facilitate the end or reset [often the case in linear mmos] of core gameplay. All of this stuff in known and practiced in many game and play systems from Chess to cards to video games.

    For example, if we look at a very simple linear MMO such as SWTOR-

    The gameplay is based around the -/+ matchup of various character stats. One levels through quests and a primary campaign to a arbitrary maximum level. Increasing your maximum level aligns with the goal of increasing stats in your favor.

    At the point of maximum level one enters into a series actives designed to further statistical gains. Narrowing to only a few activities before a player achieves the ultimate goal facilitated by gameplay; maximum statistical gains.

    The point in which the gameplay, interaction within the rules, narrows is the Endgame. The part in which one completes the game goal is the end of game.

    One can still play the SWTOR at the end of game.

    There are other examples of an endgame such as in Morrowind, Fallout or Magic the Gathering. Just as an example of endgame in other genres besides MMOs. Which again, is pretty common!
    You keep talking about how "end-game" only applies to certain singular modes (aka Fractals, WvW, etc) and how that can't be compared to other MMOs. Well, what the hell are Raids then in other MMOs? They are a singular mode of a game in which you need to get the newest tier of gear ONLY to complete said mode. The rest of the game can still be done without that gear. How is that any different from the way Fractals work for example? It's not any different. And yet, you keep trying to make it sound like it is different.

    You also say GW2 did not gain end-game when Fractals were introduced. I guess that means other MMOs don't gain end-game when Raids are introduced then huh? But yet, according to you, they do gain new ways of "end-game". But no, we can't apply that EXACT SAME THING in GW2. That just doesn't make sense (according to you). Your arguments are so contradictory, it's laughable.

    The example you gave of SWTOR applies to GW2 as well. Ascended gear is a +stat gear over exotic gear. You obtain it to complete harder content, as you do in SWTOR. You start to limit your overall play to a smaller and smaller area of activity (aka raids, aka fractals)You're proving yourself wrong with your own example. But I'm sure you'll come up with some random, off the wall, "this is fact in the video game world" nonsense to try and disprove this as well.
    Last edited by Zephyr Storm; 2013-08-18 at 06:10 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Ah Fencers, you keep moving this endgame goal around so much I can't keep track of it now! What I'm getting from all your wordiness is that you think since there is no ilvl required to unlock content there is no endgame?
    GW2 doesn't narrow is another way of putting it.

    An endgame is the point of the (a) game before the end of game in which there are limited options of play. After word, by the play rules, the game is at an end/achieved/completed/etc. The final stages before end, thus endgame.

    A concept that is consistent regardless of game actually. Even game type- as in there is an endgame in Chess, playing cards, Go!, etc.

    Sorry if you are not grasping a concept defined, understood and used since the late 1800s.

    She raced through to level 80 and pretty much stopped playing. Said things like completing 1 path in the dungeon counted as completing the dungeon, didn't do the new dungeons, hasn't been participating in the updates, etc. I think she thinks if she keeps up with the "no endgame" mantra that people will start believing it
    This is nonsense and borderline an ad hominem. Which are not truly allowed on the forums.

    I do play GW2 regularly. Did rush to 80 on Ranger, though have multiple 80s. Never made such claims about dungeons and have done new dungeons. I do all the LS content that my schedule allows as well. Which I have enjoyed, again, for the record.

    Apologies if I do not fawn over games as expected or honor common video game player notions w/r/t the medium.

    I do not engage in fanaticism. The practice is shameful even when well intentioned.

    You keep talking about how "end-game" only applies to certain singular modes (aka Fractals, WvW, etc) and how that can't be compared to other MMOs. Well, what the hell are Raids then in other MMOs? They are a singular mode of a game in which you need to get the newest tier of gear ONLY to complete said mode. The rest of the game can still be done without that gear. How is that any different from the way Fractals work for example? It's not any different. And yet, you keep trying to make it sound like it is different.
    Endgame doesn't apply only to singular game modes. I was pointing out modes such as fractals and WvW as singular modes apart from the core gameplay of GW2. I.E., these are not the final stages of play within the gameplay of GW2.

    And, yes. Many theme park MMOs have singular modes as their endgame. Raids are one type of endgame.

    Of which [typically] are the final stages of play, as set by the gameplay [i.e. rules], to completing the goals of the game. Such as in the previously mentioned SWTOR, where the core gameplay [stats+] funnel to the point of limited play options [raiding] to that goal. Creating an endgame stage.

    The gameplay goal of SWTOR is to get better gear/stats/statistically stronger. That core gameplay drive is relevant to the whole game and all game modes.

    However, Fractals can be done anytime for the most part. There is no gameplay drive to complete them- they are not consistent across the game/game modes either. Hence a singular game mode that has no end of game. That is to say, ascended gears are not relevant to the gameplay of WvW, SPVP, non-fractal dungeons or just general world PVE. Fractals are their own thing within GW2- just like keg brawl or building a virtual house.

    You also say GW2 did not gain end-game when Fractals were introduced. I guess that means other MMOs don't gain end-game when Raids are introduced then huh? But yet, according to you, they do gain new ways of "end-game". But no, we can't apply that EXACT SAME THING in GW2. That just doesn't make sense (according to you). Your arguments are so contradictory, it's laughable.
    Sometimes MMOs don't gain an endgame when raids are added! Such as in Rift- where not all new raids [instanced and open world] were a reset / endgame stage.

    Now if fractals were a device by which the core gameplay narrowed to the completion of fractals [limited pieces on the board, completion of game goal]- then yes, GW2 would have an endgame in Fractals. That is not the case.

    There is nothing contradictory in this- endgame is the stage where limited pieces are in play before you end the game by the rule set/goals of the game.

    Again, a well used concept for many years in many play systems from playing cards to video games.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-18 at 08:48 PM.

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