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  1. #541
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    ...and now Blizzard has told us that after the siege of Orgrimmar Alliance will retreat from Orc lands...but they get nothing in return. I mean really? is it just me who thinks Alliance is getting screwed over and over with no apparent retaliation in-game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Um... was this really confirmed? Any quote or link would be very welcome, as I cannot wrap my mind around such 'revelation'.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    No, you should shut up because you did get good lore quests and you're suffering from a debilitating "grass is greener" complex.
    can you tell me one quest we have better than horde quest?

    for me I can prove that horde quest million time better than alliance quest
    let me see
    we get drunk dwarf talking non-stop
    while horde get epic ships fleet phase quest ( because programmer was working on horde quest sop hard that they forget about alliance quest)

    we get cat helping random troll(from alliance pov) and begging Vol'jin to help him
    while horde get rebellion battle against garrosh ( garrosh try to kill Vol'jin and terminate his tribe)

    we lost in 90% our in game quest in last 2 expansions (if we they let us win than they make us look like an asshole winner)
    horde win 90% of their in game quest in last 2 expansions

    do i need to say more?

    P.S.: unless you mean good "alliance" quest = listen to drunk dwarf talking non-stop
    Last edited by greeeed; 2013-08-21 at 12:33 AM.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    When a historically hostile faction busts into your house without explanation, you have every right to defend yourself and fight back. Jaina put Vereesa and the Silver Covenant in charge of the purge, Jaina knew exactly how it would devolve into a massacre. She even invited Stormwind troops into the city for it. Why didn't she use neutral Kirin Tor forces to do the purge. You know, people that aren't hostile to the Sunreavers to make the whole thing less confrontational so as not to escalate things into so much violence.
    Because it was violent retaliation, that's the point. It's harsh, it's hard to stomach; but it was the point. If you fight back (even rightfully so), you are going to get killed.

    And no, stop with the massacre thing. IT WASN'T, Dalaran streets didn't run red with blood. Only the people that opposed violently were put through the sword, the order was incarceration. Jaina herself just sends people to the Hold. There were casualties, it was violent, but it wasn't a massacre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    No they didn't. They were trying to leave the Horde and join the Alliance. Garrosh found out and set them up to sabotage their negotiations.
    Negotiations that were not public information, Only Varian and Lor'themar knew about this. It only makes sense. If the Sunreavers had been privy of Theron's talks, why keep it a secret from the rest of the Kirin Tor when it would have helped? The only reason is that as Varian chose not to communicate Jaina, Theron had his reasons to keep the Sunreavers in the dark (Not trusting Aethas and/or the possibility of spies are good reasons)

    Fact is, the Sunreavers didn't know of the talks. They weren't trying to leave the horde and join the Alliance. If anything, his continued support of the horde even beyond the Northrend war suggest they are quite happy serving the horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    And aiding the Alliance in their stand against Garrosh was neutral?
    If you are referring to the Kirin Tor deployment in Theramore, it really means nothing to this situation. When Jaina was chosen as the leader, she made clear they would strive for neutrality and would not tolerate insubordination, and after Theramoore, I doubt her punishment would have been light. And I doubt even more that the Sunreavers didn't know where they stood.

  4. #544
    Scarab Lord Azgraal's Avatar
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    I don't know about you, but i sure went all "shrug pump mode" for the Alliance this expansion...

    It was a good expansion, mind me, just not what i was expecting regarding the Alliance lore development..

    P.S.: I believe Dalaran did a wrong turn somewhere, after we were told it was on the move (post purge).

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by seije View Post
    but seriously, I could handle all the crap the Alliance has taken from the horde if we could just get our (few) victories actually represented in game. Where the hell is Dalaran? If they can make Thrall be in 50+ places at once, I see no reason why Blizz can't implement 2 separate Dalarans: the first in northrend in its time'locked state, and the other floating above Theramore Crater. Through phasing, the horde has kept nearly every victory they've ever accomplished in WoW. Why can't the alliance keep its one damned thing it gained in MoP?
    Why would you want Dalaran floating over Theamore crater, never to be seen again?

    There are two obvious places for Dalaran to go.

    1: Dalaran Crater as it still has interests there. Along with Gilneas and Arathi this would herald the start of the Alliance move against the Forsaken. Plenty of story opportunity there.

    2: More likely - some place to do with the next XPac; Kul Tiras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Um... was this really confirmed? Any quote or link would be very welcome, as I cannot wrap my mind around such 'revelation'.
    Essentially. Apparently, the Alliance retreat with nothing gained or restored and instead of celebrating the liberation of occupied Alliance territories are content to forgive and forget and allow the Horde to pay "reparations" in compensation for the deaths of tens of thousands of Alliance citizens and the continued occupation of Alliance territories.

    Word is, the Alliance does get a warm glow of moral superiority from this Lawful Stupid action.

    And people wonder why the Alliance has no sense of faction pride.

    EJL

  6. #546
    Varian's been taking credit away from players since he was re-introduced to the game by stealing the Onyxia kill lore-wise. Blizzard's been bumbling around with his story just to give the Alliance some kind of figurehead. But it's to be expected. Metzen was just hired to come up with brief, basic character designs and backstories to motivate a RTS that lost its Warhammer licensing. Granted he's done quite well borrowing from other series and even had some neat ideas of his own, but it's not like this is an award winning team of novelists. It's just humans and orcs who don't like each other with everything else tossed in to bloat up the story to make it seem deep and interesting.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Migas11 View Post
    I don't know about you, but i sure went all "shrug pump mode" for the Alliance this expansion...

    It was a good expansion, mind me, just not what i was expecting regarding the Alliance lore development..

    P.S.: I believe Dalaran did a wrong turn somewhere, after we were told it was on the move (post purge).


    "I believe it's a left turn here."


    <BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP>


    "No you idiot! It's a right turn here!"


    <BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP>



    <Dalaran cruising over the Lost Isles>



    <BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP>



    <Dalaran cruising over Azuremyst>




    <BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP>




    "..Wait. Haven't we been here before?"



    <BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP>



    "Oh GREAT, Jaina. We're lost now. GOOD ***** JOB!"

  8. #548
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Negotiations that were not public information, Only Varian and Lor'themar knew about this. It only makes sense. If the Sunreavers had been privy of Theron's talks, why keep it a secret from the rest of the Kirin Tor when it would have helped? The only reason is that as Varian chose not to communicate Jaina, Theron had his reasons to keep the Sunreavers in the dark (Not trusting Aethas and/or the possibility of spies are good reasons)

    Fact is, the Sunreavers didn't know of the talks. They weren't trying to leave the horde and join the Alliance. If anything, his continued support of the horde even beyond the Northrend war suggest they are quite happy serving the horde.
    The leader of the Sunreavers is all about leaving the Horde. Archmage Aethas Sunreaver yells: Enough Rommath! The Sin'dorei must be free from the yoke of the Horde!

    In the same mission Lor'themar says: "Know this: I won't stand idle if the Horde interests conflict with those of my people. I may reconsider old Alliances. voices his complaints about Garrosh."

    Not long after, Lor'themar began negotiations with the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    If you are referring to the Kirin Tor deployment in Theramore, it really means nothing to this situation. When Jaina was chosen as the leader, she made clear they would strive for neutrality and would not tolerate insubordination, and after Theramoore, I doubt her punishment would have been light. And I doubt even more that the Sunreavers didn't know where they stood.
    When Jaina was chosen as the leader, she said, "I will continue to believe, as I know many here do, that this world cannot be safe with Garrosh Hellscream as the leader of the Horde." Not exactly neutral. Fortifying Darnassus and personally patrolling the city wasn't neutral either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Because it was violent retaliation, that's the point. It's harsh, it's hard to stomach; but it was the point. If you fight back (even rightfully so), you are going to get killed.

    And no, stop with the massacre thing. IT WASN'T, Dalaran streets didn't run red with blood. Only the people that opposed violently were put through the sword, the order was incarceration. Jaina herself just sends people to the Hold. There were casualties, it was violent, but it wasn't a massacre.
    Those civilians weren't running terrified through the streets because Jaina was handing out ice cream...

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I completely agree that Aethas wanted out the horde, but it is painfully clear that the rest of the Sunreavers wasn't in that boat as a whole. The fact taht the Sunreavers got, not ones, but twice "infiltrated" by traitors, suggests that horde loyalism is far more endemic. Aethas himself might be all for neutrality, but he obviosuly doesn't speak for the rest of the Sunreavers, that is so freaking clear.

    And Lor'themar told those words just to you, the player, when no one else was around. Like if it was a secret!

    You keep pulling quotes as evidence of something, but it is merely anecdotical at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    When Jaina was chosen as the leader, she said, "I will continue to believe, as I know many here do, that this world cannot be safe with Garrosh Hellscream as the leader of the Horde." Not exactly neutral. Fortifying Darnassus and personally patrolling the city wasn't neutral either.
    Does she used Dalaran's resources for that? Nothing even implies that. She acted as an individual there. If she couldn't helf darnassus on her own time, that means that Aethas trip to Silvermoon and help with the Sha box would have been treason already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Those civilians weren't running terrified through the streets because Jaina was handing out ice cream...
    No, they were running terrified because they were being imprisoned. Oh, and there weren't civilians, they were citizens; and they aren't the objective of any quest. This last point of yours does nothing actually.

  10. #550
    I agree completely!!

  11. #551
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I completely agree that Aethas wanted out the horde, but it is painfully clear that the rest of the Sunreavers wasn't in that boat as a whole. The fact taht the Sunreavers got, not ones, but twice "infiltrated" by traitors, suggests that horde loyalism is far more endemic. Aethas himself might be all for neutrality, but he obviosuly doesn't speak for the rest of the Sunreavers, that is so freaking clear.
    The Sunreavers weren't infiltrated twice. WTF are you talking about? They got infiltrated by Thalen. Fanlyr was a Sunreaver but he operated nowhere near the Sunreavers or Dalaran. He was working with Silvermoon and the Reliquary under the direct supervision of Lor'themar. While working with the Reliquary, Garrosh coerced him by threatening to put his head on a pike. The entire Darnassus Operation was carried out by Fanlyr and Silvermoon mages. We don't even find out he has any affiliation with the Sunreavers until the Darnassus mission and his real mission was to implicate the Sunreavers.

    So you have 1 spy who infiltrated the Sunreavers/Kirin Tor and 1 guy who was threatened into submission while he was in Pandaria. But somehow that means the Sunreavers have an epidemic of traitors....

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    And Lor'themar told those words just to you, the player, when no one else was around. Like if it was a secret!

    You keep pulling quotes as evidence of something, but it is merely anecdotical at best.
    And who the fuck are we as PCs? We're just random mercenaries who go around doing whatever anyone tells us for payment. We were sent personally at Garrosh's behest by General Nazgrim... Why is Lor'themar telling us his secret, inner-most thoughts and not keeping it between his trusted advisers? The way Lor'themar blabs to anyone who walks by, it's no wonder Garrosh found out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Does she used Dalaran's resources for that? Nothing even implies that. She acted as an individual there. If she couldn't helf darnassus on her own time, that means that Aethas trip to Silvermoon and help with the Sha box would have been treason already.
    Jaina isn't under the jurisdiction of the Alliance and definitely not the NElves. She had no business in Darnassus except to help the Alliance against Garrosh, a non-neutral action.

    Aethas was ordered to Silvermoon by his Regent Lord to help his people because they kept falling victim to the Sha's energy. And the whole time he's complaining about Garrosh and how much the BElves should leave the Horde and maintain their alliance with Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    No, they were running terrified because they were being imprisoned. Oh, and there weren't civilians, they were citizens; and they aren't the objective of any quest. This last point of yours does nothing actually.
    Not civilians, eh? The shopkeepers put up a bigger fight and they were definitely civilians. The shopkeepers weren't even Sunreavers, the Purge didn't apply to them. What does not siding with the Silver Covenant even mean? It's not like they were actively supporting the Sunreavers (except maybe Tolyria), they just stayed in their shops and tried not to get involved. But Vereesa orders you to go and murder them...
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-21 at 06:11 AM.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    well they did show the destruction of Theramore. and Theramore was a very good city, alot of Alliance players liked it.

    so basically Blizzard took Theramore away from the Alliance and gave them Dalaran, the bad part is that NOBODY is going to set foot on an alliance-controled Dalaran in-game.

    so in the end Alliance is left with one town less. I personally don't care if we let Thrall or anyone else finish Garrosh off, they can eat sh.. and die for all I care.

    Blizzard needs to show Alliance victories in game.

    let me brief you on what happened during Cata :

    the Forsaken nearly screwed the Alliance over. they took Andorhal and sent us running back to our small camp to the south, they attacked Gilneas and while they got briefly owned by the Worgen the forsaken manage to hold Darius' daughter hostage and force him to retreat and now some even say Gilneas is under attack by the forsaken. the forsaken also took southshore and turned it into a pile of green filth, theres nothing much left for Alliance in Lordaeron except for Aerie Peak. I should also mention that they killed and ressurected the heir of Stromgarde, there goes our hopes of retaking Stromgarde.

    the Alliance on the other hand invaded Barrens, cool! but guess what? we lost Theramore in the proccess and now Blizzard has told us that after the siege of Orgrimmar Alliance will retreat from Orc lands...but they get nothing in return. I mean really? is it just me who thinks Alliance is getting screwed over and over with no apparent retaliation in-game?
    theramore in game wasn't a full city just a questing hub, and it was simple to put a textureless crater than rework an entire zone; capital city still the same orgrimmar, thunder bluff, undercity, silvermoon - stormwind, exodar, ironforge, theldrassil, if you add a full operative dalaran to the alliance then you need to give a full capital to the horde, or if you make alliance dalaran a quest hub like theramore it need even a new model.
    Your post and many other show perfectly why no matter what story blizzard create alot of alliance players are dissatisfied and always be, you ask for in game change that require alot of work and time plus most of those change upset the levelling flow, zones and cities balance you are asking the impossible.
    In wolfheart varian kicked garrosh out of ashenvale, it is an alliance victory and a big blow on garrosh ambitions but because blizzard don't changed a level 20 zone in game peoples is crying.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    In wolfheart varian kicked garrosh out of ashenvale, it is an alliance victory and a big blow on garrosh ambitions but because blizzard don't changed a level 20 zone in game peoples is crying.
    Ok, name one major lorewise horde victory that Blizz failed to show in-game, oh wait, horde victories are all in-game (Never "Too much work for too little gain" or whatever), that's what gets to me, Blizz will do nearly anything to show horde storylines in-game and Alliance-players need to read books to know what happens and in-game... we have to use our imaginations.

  14. #554
    I don't read Blizzard's stupid trashy novels or comic books and I don't believe I should be expected to. I play World of Warcraft, the game. Anything that doesn't happen in-game didn't happen as far as I'm concerned. Anyway the fact that we have to have some sort of debate anytime any Alliance character does anything but bend over for the Horde is pretty telling in itself.

  15. #555
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Ok, name one major lorewise horde victory that Blizz failed to show in-game, oh wait, horde victories are all in-game (Never "Too much work for too little gain" or whatever), that's what gets to me, Blizz will do nearly anything to show horde storylines in-game and Alliance-players need to read books to know what happens and in-game... we have to use our imaginations.
    I don't see any Taunka running around Orgrimmar.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Ok, name one major lorewise horde victory that Blizz failed to show in-game, oh wait, horde victories are all in-game (Never "Too much work for too little gain" or whatever), that's what gets to me, Blizz will do nearly anything to show horde storylines in-game and Alliance-players need to read books to know what happens and in-game... we have to use our imaginations.
    till now the only clear victory i see in game is the stonard storyline that show in the phased event the city destruction in favor of the alliance, all the other zone are still pending and like ashenvale are completed in books in favor of the alliance, even andoral that was an horde victory is not showed in game, i don't see horde players crying out that andorhal is not fased into a full forsaken city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    I don't read Blizzard's stupid trashy novels or comic books and I don't believe I should be expected to. I play World of Warcraft, the game. Anything that doesn't happen in-game didn't happen as far as I'm concerned. Anyway the fact that we have to have some sort of debate anytime any Alliance character does anything but bend over for the Horde is pretty telling in itself.
    That's your choice but stop whining that alliance lose everytime when it's not true and many time is the other way around.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  17. #557
    I don't really give a fuck what happens in some book and telling me Alliance "wins" in some of them means absolutely zero to me. Zero.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    I don't really give a fuck what happens in some book and telling me Alliance "wins" in some of them means absolutely zero to me. Zero.
    Seriously? Grow up.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    I don't really give a fuck what happens in some book and telling me Alliance "wins" in some of them means absolutely zero to me. Zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Seriously? Grow up.
    You can't blame him since not every mmorpg fan is Novel book fan...
    That why they ask for in game quest... instead of giving nothing and telling us you want your story? go read the books while horde members can have it from inside the game

    I guess alliance member ca only feel as hero in novel since we only feel as loser or asshole winner inside the game... that if they did add alliance quest...
    Last edited by greeeed; 2013-08-24 at 01:22 PM.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    till now the only clear victory i see in game is the stonard storyline that show in the phased event the city destruction in favor of the alliance, all the other zone are still pending and like ashenvale are completed in books in favor of the alliance, even andoral that was an horde victory is not showed in game, i don't see horde players crying out that andorhal is not fased into a full forsaken city.



    That's your choice but stop whining that alliance lose everytime when it's not true and many time is the other way around.
    Stonard is still there when you finish alliance questing unless they patched the zone.

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