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  1. #701
    It's hilarious when people mix common sence and logic with the world of warcraft world

  2. #702
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furbolger View Post
    In WoW, whenever the Alliance loses they appear wimpy and apparently don't care that much, while when they win they appear to be assholes or maniacs (Looking at you Jaina! Oh, also it backfires.)
    That's a matter of your own perspective though isn't it. I never thought the alliance seemed wimpy or assholes in victory or loss. It's just the way the characters play out.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week the Easter bunny mythology is analyzed. Check it out!

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by SyrahGrunt View Post
    Alliance LAYS SIEGE ON THE HORDE'S CAPITAL and SLAYS THE WARCHIEF, wether you give a damn about the Horde Rebellion or not.
    Repeating this over and over and over again just continues to prove you and others like you don't understand the nature of the discontent.

    Seriously, quit it.

    Oh, and if the reverse happened and the Alliance got all the writers' attention and lore development? Damn right Horde players would be pissed off. I know EXACTLY what they'd be saying:

    "WTF we help take Stormwind, but don't get to keep hold of it or destroy it? And we don't even get anything else out of it? WTF Blizz?"

    THAT is exactly what would be said! And they'd be right!

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Andorhal is help up as an example of how not to do it...by pulling the rug out from under the Alliance player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Val'kyr) to grant victory.
    Same thing happened for the Horde in Fenris Keep... by pulling the rug out from under the Horde player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Worgen curse) to grant victory.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-29 at 06:48 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawsix View Post
    so the alliance are suppose to take over orgrimmar and run the horde like post WW2 germany? now thats story inbalance
    No. That's never been the argument or suggestion.

    But you know what? If they did that, it would be fine. Because post WW2 Germany PROSPERED because of the money pumped into it by the Western Allies. So its a really poor comparison to even suggest!

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    No. That's never been the argument or suggestion.

    But you know what? If they did that, it would be fine. Because post WW2 Germany PROSPERED because of the money pumped into it by the Western Allies. So its a really poor comparison to even suggest!
    Damnit. If only the Alliance occupied Orgrimmar and reconstructed it. I was hoping for proper sanitation, working plumbing, and real infrastructure. So far, the only thing Orgrimmar has done right is that mail is delivered on time.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-29 at 07:06 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Ashenvale is held up as an example of how not to do it....by stopping the Alliance story half way through.
    Andorhal is help up as an example of how not to do it...by pulling the rug out from under the Alliance player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Val'kyr) to grant victory.

    EJL
    I did say it was excellent in my opinion, didn't I?
    In my view the criticism is unfair, because we leave Ashenvale on a high note after a string of victories and with a general feeling that the Night Elves have some awesome military might when they bring it to bear. Obviously we cant have the whole zone to ourselves after that, since its not a singleplayer game.
    I thought Andorhal is a nicely told story, in that we have some victories and see how the Alliance can be effective only to have it dramatically go awry when the Forsaken use, arguably, unethical means ( that is Scourge-tactics). It in no way diminishes the Alliance's valor or heroism, and in fact strenghtens our resolve to fight the now even more clearly evil (in our eyes) Forsaken.
    Your mileage may vary, of course.

  8. #708
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    The debate over faction story development continues internally here at Blizzard, as it does on the forums and elsewhere.

    Any chance we can get more updates on that debate? We get constant updates on gameplay mechanics from Ghostcrawler and other CMs about their thoughts and feelings, but we only rarely hear things from Kosak and friends. It'd be very helpful if they started talking to us and telling us what they're hearing, because right now it seems like there's a really big communication gap.

    It's something we're working on. I'd love to set up more story-centric interviews and conversations with the community. But, while Dave and Greg are both design leads, it's very difficult to compare their tasks, workloads, and roles within the community.

    Systems design is extremely complicated, but it revolves primarily around math. It's easier to have a conversation over class balance concerns and walk away with some objective, actionable feedback. We also try not to change classes too dramatically from patch to patch -- we don't want people logging in and suddenly not knowing how to play their class every time they download a new patch. Greg can talk about general changes early on in a patch's development cycle, and then he can take feedback and look at an array of statistical data we collect in order to finetune numbers closer to the patch's release.

    Story development works very differently. Concerns are much more subjective. This isn't to say they're inherently less valuable, as we're always taking careful note of what the popular opinion is on a given topic. But, there's often a degree of complexity to story development concerns that certainly can't be addressed by changing a couple values somewhere in the game code. And the story we want to tell, combined with the gameplay we want to introduce, is determined much earlier on in development than what class balance will look like in patch X.

    For example, there are several people in this thread asserting that the entire concept of the Siege of Orgrimmar is flawed from a story perspective, particularly for the Alliance. Well, we knew Siege of Orgrimmar would be the final raid of Mists of Pandaria before the expansion was revealed at BlizzCon 2011, and the story framework for how we'd get there was already more or less in place. So, even when we do react directly to feedback about story concerns, we're looking much more at the big picture here, and what stories we want to tell and how they should unfold over the course of several patches (or even expansions).

    We can make some tweaks and refine some story arcs along the way, but regardless of the discussions taking place right now, the 5.4 story is set. It has been for quite some time. That's in big contrast to the aspects of systems design that draw the most discussion (i.e. mainly class balance).

    So, tying this back to the varying capacities in which Dave and Greg engage the community, I couldn't be very liberal with Dave's time when it came to booking interviews. I found about an hour of his time (hour and a half if you count that I stole part of his lunch break) and sat him down for back-to-back interviews -- in, out, and done in one swoop. The reason being that his role in the development of a patch happens at a very different stage of the cycle. At this point he's not actively reading PTR feedback and tweaking how the Horde and Alliance are responding to the threat of Garrosh, or deciding to rework the conclusion of the siege. It's way too late for that, and he's already very busy working on the stories yet to unfold in World of Warcraft. And, yes, in that space he takes popular feedback to heart.

    Dave Kosak... I just don't know anyone more passionate about this game's narrative, or more burdened with the responsibility of making sure that the story is fun to play through regardless of the faction, race, or class a player chooses. He cares deeply about you feeling personally invested in what you're doing, and whether you're red or blue certainly doesn't change that.

    All this being stated, I want to add more words to this post.

    Part of my role on the WoW Community Team is fansite/influencer relations, which includes booking developer interviews. I've been on the team for six years, but I took on the role of fansite relations shortly before Mists of Pandaria was released. Not counting things like PAX or other press events, I've been responsible for booking developer interviews for five press rounds (5.0-5.4). Each time I experiment with the formula by trying to cover different formats, give different sites or people a chance to talk to the devs, etc.

    Looking back on the last five rounds to determine how we can improve the process and results going forward, I'll tell you right now that I'm most interested in bringing story discussion more to the forefront of interviews -- including WoW devs like Dave Kosak, as well as folks from Creative Dev like Chris Metzen and Micky Neilson -- and getting our artists involved more regularly, 'cause you don't hear from them enough. And finally, while I understand the importance of having a mix of text, audio, and video formats, I want the developers on camera more. I believe strongly that the more you get to see and hear the individual behind the name, the better!
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  9. #709
    It would be so great to have Orgrimmar displayed destroyed from the siege after the SoO patch. Building collaped, bodies everywhere, destruction and stuff, broken machinery and equipment.
    And then after the Alliance leaves month per month cleaning up the place, putting some construction boards, cranes, materials gathered (like for AQ gates) and in some time having for the Horde a small event of the final rebuild of Orgrimmar. A celebration for a new start, a new era.

    See how easily you can have an epic event and keep both factions happy. Yes the siege happened. Orgrimmar got invaded BUT now it's fixed.

    --=="The Light and How To Swing It"==--

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Heldamon View Post
    It would be so great to have Orgrimmar displayed destroyed from the siege after the SoO patch. Building collaped, bodies everywhere, destruction and stuff, broken machinery and equipment.
    And then after the Alliance leaves month per month cleaning up the place, putting some construction boards, cranes, materials gathered (like for AQ gates) and in some time having for the Horde a small event of the final rebuild of Orgrimmar. A celebration for a new start, a new era.

    See how easily you can have an epic event and keep both factions happy. Yes the siege happened. Orgrimmar got invaded BUT now it's fixed.
    Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.
    This. This is exactly what happened when Org was burned to the ground the first time, in the pre-cata event.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Repeating this over and over and over again just continues to prove you and others like you don't understand the nature of the discontent.

    Seriously, quit it.

    Oh, and if the reverse happened and the Alliance got all the writers' attention and lore development? Damn right Horde players would be pissed off. I know EXACTLY what they'd be saying:

    "WTF we help take Stormwind, but don't get to keep hold of it or destroy it? And we don't even get anything else out of it? WTF Blizz?"

    THAT is exactly what would be said! And they'd be right!
    I would understand why we can't due to gameplay reasons if the opposite is true. Gameplay trumps lore and reason.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    That's a matter of your own perspective though isn't it. I never thought the alliance seemed wimpy or assholes in victory or loss. It's just the way the characters play out.
    Wait. The Alliance wins? I guess I should be paying attention to other things outside of Battlegrounds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Theendgamelv3 View Post
    I would understand why we can't due to gameplay reasons if the opposite is true. Gameplay trumps lore and reason.
    The problem is that you're attempting to equate yourself to those Alliance players that are irritated by this. I'm an Alliance player and I feel the same way that you do. However, the types of Horde players that are like the Alliance players who are complaining would be having a massive bitchfest if the opposite held true. If there was a raid in SW and the Horde went in to kill an insane Varian Wrynn and then handed SW back to the Alliance, there would be a large number of Horde players pissed off by that.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.

    As an Alliance fan, I actually agree when you say that would happen. They'd probably state how those resources could have gone into repairing Stormwind and how it is Horde bias. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  15. #715
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
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    Since most of SoO takes place underground, and Ogrimmar itself is largely an open, nomad styled city, the only thing that could really be shown as "Destroyed" would be the gate. Which could be fixed fairly easily and quickly by the time the next expansion comes around. Thus making it sort of a waste of time for them to change it for a month or four.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    As an Alliance fan, I actually agree when you say that would happen. They'd probably state how those resources could have gone into repairing Stormwind and how it is Horde bias. :P
    You act like it's an unjustified complaint.

    I'm still curious where the tons of lumber, stone, oil and meat the Alliance recovered for Vol'jin went, since all the stupid Trolls brought to the siege were two crappy stick and animal skin huts placed in front of Orgrimmar.
    The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was... inconsolable.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You act like it's an unjustified complaint.

    I'm still curious where the tons of lumber, stone, oil and meat the Alliance recovered for Vol'jin went, since all the stupid Trolls brought to the siege were two crappy stick and animal skin huts placed in front of Orgrimmar.

    Eh.. I actually want there to be more of a consequence to the Siege than just having Garrosh removed from the throne. But I also acknowledge that there are those who would inevitably complain that showing those consequences are wasted and that the resources should've been poured into Stormwind updates or something.
    Last edited by Yarathir; 2013-08-29 at 09:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Eh.. I actually went there to be more of a consequence to the Siege than just having Garrosh removed from the throne. But I also acknowledge that there are those who would inevitably complain that showing those consequences are wasted and that the resources should've been poured into Stormwind updates or something.
    In my opinion, there should be a massive statue of Wrynn directly in front of Grommash Hold in that middle clear area of the Valley, which should stay there from now on.
    The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was... inconsolable.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.
    I've said for a while now the Siege of Orgrimmar should leave that city all kinds of jacked up.

    Next expansion, have daily quests for crafting with the server participation, and those daily crafting quests, contributing to the rebuilding of both cities.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I've said for a while now the Siege of Orgrimmar should leave that city all kinds of jacked up.

    Next expansion, have daily quests for crafting with the server participation, and those daily crafting quests, contributing to the rebuilding of both cities.
    That's a pretty good idea as long as one faction's materials aren't going to the other faction's city rebuild.

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