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  1. #1

    Prot gearing confusion.

    Hi guys/gals I'm new to the whole tanking scene and paladins as a whole. I was reading the prot sticking, and saw that avoidance stats are currently very weak. It also mentions to reforge these stats into haste/mastery so my question is should i gear in ret items with say tanking rings,neck, and trinkets or all tanking gear and just reforge parry,dodge. Noxxic says one thing icy veins another so can you help me?

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Go for items with haste / mastery. Doesn't matter if its "ret" or "prot", choose items with the best stats for you.

    If it has parry/dodge on it then replace it or reforge it into haste.

    Theres a fix my tanking thread for this stuff btw.

  3. #3
    The reason dodge and parry are weak is because they do very little to lower spike damage, which is what really kills tanks lately.

    Getting yourself hit capped (7.5%) and expertise parry capped (15%), and then stacking haste has shown to be the best option for smoothing out spike damage, assuming you run a tight rotation and are using Shield of the Righteous at the right times.

    Ret gear will work just fine for you so long as you avoid crit, because crit does absolutely nothing for your survivability. Yes, even ret tier gear will work.

    Your first order of business is to cap your hit and expertise, so reforge into those first before going for haste. Once you've got them where you need them, keep looking for hit/expertise/haste/mastery gear.

    Stamina also does quite well at effectively smoothing out damage, so using stamina trinkets is a great choice. Gemming for stamina is a bit more iffy because you get more secondary stats (expertise, haste, hit, and mastery) per gem than you do primary stats (strength, stamina, etc).

    If you don't mind being linked to a place outside MMO-C, take a look at the Elitistjerks prot pally thread. Theck is a big contributor there, and he's the one who ran the simulations to show that capping accuracy stats then going into haste was quite powerful for prot.

    You might also want to look at Theck's own blog, Sacred Duty.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post

    Stamina also does quite well at effectively smoothing out damage, so using stamina trinkets is a great choice.
    Stamina is a terrible choice from a 10 man POV, its not even close to a "great" choice, that's simply bad advice. Theres enough inherent stamina on gear and you're missing out on ~3k haste / other stats, trading them for a larger health pool. More haste gives you the tools to completely avoid needing more stamina. I'd say more stamina is just a cushion for bad play.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Well, we need to know a little bit more in order to give you accurate advice.

    What do you raid? 10? 25?

    How "invested" are you / your raid? What's your goal? Progression? Just having fun?

    How would you rank yourself as a player? Beginner - Average - Good - Exceptional?

    Do you click your spells or do you use hotkeys for most of your spells?

    Why did you choose prot pally? And not another tank?

    --

    In theory, haste trumps everything. Haste haste Haste. Everywhere and on Everything. But I got a feeling that's not the right choice for you.

    If you give us a little bit more information, we can help you better.
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Stamina is a terrible choice from a 10 man POV, its not even close to a "great" choice, that's simply bad advice. Theres enough inherent stamina on gear and you're missing out on ~3k haste / other stats, trading them for a larger health pool. More haste gives you the tools to completely avoid needing more stamina. I'd say more stamina is just a cushion for bad play.
    Given how the stat breakdowns at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/14...a-breakpoints/ show stamina ahead of haste for several sets, and Theck says that stamina being ahead of haste is entirely normal, stamina does have a great showing once you take care of the specific "breakpoint" issues if they pop up. But it all depends on what content one is going up against, and what gear one is using.

    The better way to get gear advice would be to plug one's character into SimC and tell it to sim the stats from a TMI point of view. Adelphos, if you're still wondering how to gear, you'll want to check out http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/16...tting-started/ to get yourself started on using SimC to really get an idea of what your stat values are in terms of smoothing damage.

    If you're not confident in your ability to nail the rotation and get the maximum amount of HoPo in the minimum amount of time, haste might not be the best for you.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-08-24 at 12:32 AM.
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  7. #7
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Given how the stat breakdowns at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/14...a-breakpoints/ show stamina ahead of haste for several sets, and Theck says that stamina being ahead of haste is entirely normal, stamina does have a great showing once you take care of the specific "breakpoint" issues if they pop up. But it all depends on what content one is going up against, and what gear one is using.
    Stamina typically pulls away in 25m just because bosses simply... hit tanks harder. That said it's only really required for pushing heroic content, or content while you are undergeared. If you are just going to do LFR or something DPS stats are the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    If you're not confident in your ability to nail the rotation and get the maximum amount of HoPo in the minimum amount of time, haste might not be the best for you.
    HoPo generation is not terribly difficult.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Stamina typically pulls away in 25m just because bosses simply... hit tanks harder. That said it's only really required for pushing heroic content, or content while you are undergeared. If you are just going to do LFR or something DPS stats are the way to go.

    HoPo generation is not terribly difficult.
    Just trying to give what advice I can with what information I have. Perhaps I should have capitalized the "if" in that second part? I agree, HoPo generation isn't very difficult, but consistently running a tight rotation definitely takes practice.

    I'm not sure why you're telling me about the stats. I quite clearly say "it all depends on what content one is going up against, and what gear one is using." And I allude to one's skill being a factor (which is plainly obvious with the active mitigation model anyway) in the second part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Given how the stat breakdowns at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/14...a-breakpoints/ show stamina ahead of haste for several sets, and Theck says that stamina being ahead of haste is entirely normal, stamina does have a great showing once you take care of the specific "breakpoint" issues if they pop up. But it all depends on what content one is going up against, and what gear one is using.

    The better way to get gear advice would be to plug one's character into SimC and tell it to sim the stats from a TMI point of view. Adelphos, if you're still wondering how to gear, you'll want to check out http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/16...tting-started/ to get yourself started on using SimC to really get an idea of what your stat values are in terms of smoothing damage.

    If you're not confident in your ability to nail the rotation and get the maximum amount of HoPo in the minimum amount of time, haste might not be the best for you.
    Deja was completely right in his statement. Stamina is quite terrible in 10 man, it is far from a great choice, decent at best. It depends a bit on the skill of the player playing the class though and the gear level. But as an overall, there are far more situations when you should not go stamina than where you should.

    If you take player skill from a 1 to 5, 1 being low to 5 being high, the gearing looks roughly as this.

    Note: 10 man PoV, extremely simplified and not a strict guideline

    1 - Stamina>avoidance - This is the point where you know nothing about your class really and play terrible
    2 - Haste > Stamina=mastery - Here you start understanding the basics, keeping SS up and acceptable rotation and sotr usage
    3 - Mastery > Haste - Here you start using SotR very well, timing it for whenever you need it.
    4 - Haste > Mastery - This is where you start perfecting your rotation and maximizing SotR uptime and getting a good feel for the class
    5 - Haste > Crit - And this is when you got a perfect knowledge of your class, you know exactly what you are doing, pushing for max uptimes and throughput.

    Stamina really is not that great for most 10 man tanks.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    I have heard that many paladins are now collecting avoidance gear for 5.4 because haste builds will not be viable anymore. Is that true?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I have heard that many paladins are now collecting avoidance gear for 5.4 because haste builds will not be viable anymore. Is that true?
    Nope.

    /10charmin

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I have heard that many paladins are now collecting avoidance gear for 5.4 because haste builds will not be viable anymore. Is that true?
    As Wanko said.

    Nope.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    The Patient st33l's Avatar
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    Yes, go haste.

  14. #14
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by st33l View Post
    Yes, go haste.
    Forever and ever, Amen.

    (until 21250)
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  15. #15
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Some other things:

    1) Noxxic is terrible, don't trust it. Icy-Veins and EJ (Paladin area is fairly up to date). If you don't mind dealing with scary maths occasionally, Theck's site SacredDuty.net is a great resource for the theory behind most of this. Also Maintankadin but it's not always updated.

    2) Haste/Mastery/Hit/Exp gear are best, but don't be blind: If you have say a 476 Haste/Mastery piece and got a 522 (or even a 502) Dodge/Parry piece, the avoidance piece is better. You want to use the highest iLevel gear, but you prefer things that don't have Dodge and/or Parry on them.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I have heard that many paladins are now collecting avoidance gear for 5.4 because haste builds will not be viable anymore. Is that true?
    The warrior forum is that way
    |
    |
    v

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    and expertise parry capped (15%)
    Wrong expertise doesn't do much for survivability and does next to nothing for dps beyond spell hit cap (generally 7.5 hit + 7.5 exp)
    Armories:
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    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  17. #17
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Wrong expertise doesn't do much for survivability and does next to nothing for dps beyond spell hit cap (generally 7.5 hit + 7.5 exp)
    What? Everything I've seen says you get more out of having 15% Expertise and that should be one of the first goals you shoot for after Hit.

    7.5% Hit > 15% Exp (7.5% min if you can't get 15%) > Haste > Mastery >>>>>> Parry > Dodge
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What? Everything I've seen says you get more out of having 15% Expertise and that should be one of the first goals you shoot for after Hit.
    The only two things that gain anything from exp hard cap are white hits (loldmg) and crusader strike (loldmg and only about half of the HP gain).
    In 520ish gear level you don't really have to choose since red gem slots and reforges already allow you to exp cap without losing haste. But still you're making a trade of quantity/consistency from more CS hits over quality from going mastery or even crit.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What? Everything I've seen says you get more out of having 15% Expertise and that should be one of the first goals you shoot for after Hit.

    7.5% Hit > 15% Exp (7.5% min if you can't get 15%) > Haste > Mastery >>>>>> Parry > Dodge
    Nillo is correct. You got higher throughput from not hit capping expertise. It does however require a little bit higher sense of awareness with your holy power to know that your next CS could be parried, but since J always generated HoPo (presuming 7.5 hit) you still got some reliable hopo regen. It is nothing difficult. I did not reach expertise hard cap until 532 ilvl gear.

    It becomes a matter of choice, playing your characters at its limits while accounting for some RNG, or feeling that you cant handle a single parried CD in your rotation and need to cap expertise.

    Exp7.5>Haste>Exp15 will yield you more HoPo*, higher DPS, higher hps and more absobs through faster SS ticks.
    *There is a breakpoint where exp yields higher HoPo regen then haste, but this usually happens at the point where you got 15 expertise regardless of stat priority, so it is a kinda mute breakpoint since it is never really relevant unless you are in full dodge/parry gear.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #20
    Theck's work at www.sacredduty.net has shown time and time again that expertise to 15% is necessary, period. But if you really want to see for yourself, plug your character in to SimC, set it to determine stats based on TMI (Theck's index for smoothness which he goes over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/01...metric-part-1/), and take a look at which stats provide the best benefits. I predict it'll be expertise>haste pretty much every time. That's simply how it is. Reliably smoothing out the damage requires your abilities always be reliable, and that means 15% expertise to get rid of parries.

    Unless you'd like to refute the gigabytes of data Theck has put together during the entire expansion? That's the data the Elitistjerks guide bases its information on.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-08-24 at 05:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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