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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Theck's work at www.sacredduty.net has shown time and time again that expertise to 15% is necessary, period. But if you really want to see for yourself, plug your character in to SimC, set it to determine stats based on TMI (Theck's index for smoothness which he goes over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/01...metric-part-1/), and take a look at which stats provide the best benefits. I predict it'll be expertise>haste pretty much every time. That's simply how it is. Reliably smoothing out the damage requires your abilities always be reliable, and that means 15% expertise to get rid of parries.

    Unless you'd like to refute the gigabytes of data Theck has put together during the entire expansion? That's the data the Elitistjerks guide bases its information on.
    I thought we were done with this discussion months ago. Yet, another on of these emerges on the forums.

    You are terribly wrong. We are talking about tanking raid bosses, not dummies. Even with 7.5-14.99 expertise you have extremely reliable hopo regeneration. You are simply trading hps, dps, holy power and absorbs for a tiny bit of "reliability".

    Neither of the options are a clear winner, neither is completely wrong, depends on your situatio. It is a matter of throughput vs covering the slack if you have bad HoPo planning. For any experienced protadin, the reliability of not being expertise capped is irrelevant, which means that you are comparing throughput vs less throughput. In those cases for experienced paladins, the throughput is always better, which makes haste>exp for experienced players, which is why a general consensus in these forums feels like haste>expertise for 10 man content. Still, with current gear you can reach 15 exp even with haste>exp priority which means this is only really relevant for people gearing up at the moment.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Theck's work at www.sacredduty.net has shown time and time again that expertise to 15% is necessary, period. But if you really want to see for yourself, plug your character in to SimC, set it to determine stats based on TMI (Theck's index for smoothness which he goes over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/01...metric-part-1/), and take a look at which stats provide the best benefits. I predict it'll be expertise>haste pretty much every time. That's simply how it is. Reliably smoothing out the damage requires your abilities always be reliable, and that means 15% expertise to get rid of parries.

    Unless you'd like to refute the gigabytes of data Theck has put together during the entire expansion? That's the data the Elitistjerks guide bases its information on.
    This starts to get boring...

    Exp Hard Cap > Haste:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydz9fvfrvv...exp_h_cap.html

    Haste > Exp Hard Cap:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/3din2pnuy7...aste_prio.html

    Dropping 1876 expertise rating for more haste (till I reached 50%) increased my DPS, my HPS from SS, and my SotR uptime, it lowered my DtPS. It lowered my SoI heals too, but in simcraft, it never over-heals, which makes it rather unrealistic. It increased my so called "TMI", but TMI doesn't has much to do with IRL bosses.

    EDIT:
    With DP:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ngb33zv3vb..._h_cap_DP.html
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/htrl7z0nhs...e_prio_DP.html

    Same results.
    Last edited by Wanko; 2013-08-24 at 06:51 PM.

  3. #23
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Interesting... did not know that. So do you think it's better overall to soft cap Exp and get more Haste, or go for some kind of weird mix (like say 10% Expertise or something along those lines)?

    I think I need to learn how to use Simcraft so I can figure this stuff out on my own
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-24 at 07:28 PM.
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  4. #24
    Well at 520+ it doesn't really matter since you should be exp capped by default or at the least close enough so that getting a few red slots with exp/haste and exp food will get you there.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Well at 520+ it doesn't really matter since you should be exp capped by default or at the least close enough so that getting a few red slots with exp/haste and exp food will get you there.
    I think I had bad "luck" with expertise pieces, but even using the shado-pan exp triket, I did not reach exp cap until 532 ilvl. At 520 ilvl I was floating around 10-13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Interesting... did not know that. So do you think it's better overall to soft cap Exp and get more Haste, or go for some kind of weird mix (like say 10% Expertise or something along those lines)?
    Its not like you dont want expertise, it is just that most people go for 7.5 expertise, then they go full haste. Whatever they get in expertise over 7.5 is fine, maybe you got 8, 11, 13 or 14 expertise, does not matter. Just dont reforge to expertise on a piece you could reforge to haste. As example.
    If you have a haste/mastery piece, of course reforge the mastery to expertise. But if you have a hit/mastery piece reforge that mastery to haste.

    Usually you can reach 15 expertise going haste>exp at around 520-535 ilvl depending on what item pieces you got.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Its not like you dont want expertise, it is just that most people go for 7.5 expertise, then they go full haste. Whatever they get in expertise over 7.5 is fine, maybe you got 8, 11, 13 or 14 expertise, does not matter. Just dont reforge to expertise on a piece you could reforge to haste. As example.
    If you have a haste/mastery piece, of course reforge the mastery to expertise. But if you have a hit/mastery piece reforge that mastery to haste.

    Usually you can reach 15 expertise going haste>exp at around 520-535 ilvl depending on what item pieces you got.
    I strongly disagree with the bolded parts.
    First off I'd say "most" paly tanks go for 15% exp 2nd even if most just went for 7.5% that by itself isn't enough reason to do it.

    Exp hard cap is one of the most important things to aim for if you plan on doing any kind of progress raiding, once bosses are on farm sure go for 7.5% and more haste, but there's just far too many boss abilities that you need to have SotR up for to risk getting parried at a bad time.

    I'll just leave this link here as Sloot and Thels say it much better than I can.
    Daishan @ Saurfang EU
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    I strongly disagree with the bolded parts.
    First off I'd say "most" paly tanks go for 15% exp 2nd even if most just went for 7.5% that by itself isn't enough reason to do it.

    Exp hard cap is one of the most important things to aim for if you plan on doing any kind of progress raiding, once bosses are on farm sure go for 7.5% and more haste, but there's just far too many boss abilities that you need to have SotR up for to risk getting parried at a bad time.

    I'll just leave this link here as Sloot and Thels say it much better than I can.
    First off, you need to make a clear distinction between 10 and 25 man. I speak from a 10 man point of view. What I say can very well be valid, but just as well incorrect for 25 mans. I would argue that expertise capping is more important for 25 mans than 10, but as I raid 10, I can not really confirm that.
    For 10 man

    It is also not like you are saying "Lets aim for 7.5 expertise!". The goal is still to get expertise cap, just not at the cost of haste. Even in 490 gear you reach 9 expertise easily, with 520 gear you are likely between 11-14 expertise..

    There is no reason why a parry would prevent you from having SotR up when you need it. Again, that is just a matter of playing your HoPo game badly.
    There is no hard hitting boss mechanic that happens that frequently that getting parried even 5 times in a row would cause you to not have enough HoPo for it. The HoPo regen from J alone is a high enough to cover all hard hitting abilities.

    I have played being far from expertise cap my entire T14 progression and a majority of my T15 progression. I never ever ever had any issue with it. To be honest, I did not even notice getting expertise capped. If I could trade some more expertise for haste, I would.

    You can also flip that coin, you can die because you were 0.02 seconds away from gettig a SotR off because you had 1000 haste rating less than you could have. You can die because you were 0.01 seconds away from another SS tick that would have allowed you to be saved.
    Going for more expertise over haste, you are also causing deaths to yourself, that is also something you need to remember.

    Haste>Exp has likely saved my life a lot more times than exp>haste would, as being under expertise capped has never caused a death for me, I would suspect that the haste has saved my life on atleast one occation.

    Again, you are trading HoPo regen (unless you have very high haste and low expertise), dps and SS absorbs, only in order to cover up for your own mismanagement of your HoPo. Sure, there are situations where some players benefit from more HoPo. That does not change the fact that your throughput and maximum potential is higher with haste>exp.

    As you say, expertise hard cap is one of the most important things to get. In my eyes, it is not more important than haste. Especially going into T16 now that we will see more GC procs, for people gearing up now protadins, expertise is losing even further value.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-08-25 at 11:24 AM.
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  8. #28
    Not really helpful

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    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-08-25 at 03:01 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Again, you are trading HoPo regen (unless you have very high haste and low expertise), dps and SS absorbs, only in order to cover up for your own mismanagement of your HoPo. Sure, there are situations where some players benefit from more HoPo. That does not change the fact that your throughput and maximum potential is higher with haste>exp.
    Not sure if you read the link but even at very low haste levels putting 7.5% worth of exp into haste will only gain you 3 HoPo in a 10 min fight.

    I raid 10 man as well, having guaranteed back to back SotR when you need it is incredibly valuable on any boss that has a big physical hit that can be delayed by other abilities, think Triple Puncture, Snapping Bite, Talon Rake, and especially Fatal Strike.

    Anyway I don't expect to change your view on this, was mostly posting so other tanks get a more balanced view of exp hard capping.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    Not sure if you read the link but even at very low haste levels putting 7.5% worth of exp into haste will only gain you 3 HoPo in a 10 min fight.
    You reduce the time it takes you to build an additional SotR. You also need to remember the extra SS ticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    I raid 10 man as well, having guaranteed back to back SotR when you need it is incredibly valuable on any boss that has a big physical hit that can be delayed by other abilities, think Triple Puncture, Snapping Bite, Talon Rake, and especially Fatal Strike.
    Ehr, what? You do realise that you are 100% guaranteed to get back to back SotRs even without hard cap? J is "hit capped" at 0 expertise, it always hits as long as you got the normal hit cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    Anyway I don't expect to change your view on this, was mostly posting so other tanks get a more balanced view of exp hard capping.
    I would say likewise. Throwing away stats at expertise for new players makes no sense, especially in the next tier where we will be seeing more GC procs which do not benefit from expertise, aswell as CS no longer proccing GC.
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  11. #31
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    J might not miss, but CS could. And CS is 60% of HoPo unless you go for SW.
    I, personally, prefer going for 15% because I'm not very good at managing HoPo long-term, so I sometimes end up really needing that last CS to hit or I will not have SotR for something I must have it on.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    J might not miss, but CS could. And CS is 60% of HoPo unless you go for SW.
    I, personally, prefer going for 15% because I'm not very good at managing HoPo long-term, so I sometimes end up really needing that last CS to hit or I will not have SotR for something I must have it on.
    Yeah, but if you are sitting at 5 HoPo to prepare a back to back SotR, it does not matter if the CS misses, you will get the 6th from J. The only differece between cs hitting or missing at a back to back scenario is one of your Hopo bars glowig yellow, woopiedoo, you still get off 2 SotRs.

    It is fine as in your situation to cap expertise if as you say, you are not that good to manage your HoPo, that is completely fine. Having higher haste though would also allow you to get that SotR off faster. Maybe you realise "shit, tripple puncture is in 3 seconds and I got only 1 HoPo!", having more haste would allow you to get those 2 HoPo faster. Still, expertise capping is fine, but it is not the superior choice in terms of min-maxing. It can be superior if you are not playing the HoPo game, but a haste>exp played at max potential is better than exp>haste.
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  13. #33
    I switched to ff's gearing strat around 4/12 thru ToT (10N social raid guild) ended up with more haste and back then 11% exp. Tank death was never an issue during progression. And looking at WoL each night the amount of parried CS was minimal 0 - 1 per boss typically. Now @15% exp but that is simply due to inherent exp on gear 535iLv

  14. #34
    I've long adhered to the 14.5-15% exp rule purely from my own OCD/anal attention to caps, despite the fact that those last 2550 rating "only affected CS". While I sometimes had to sccrifice hase to get there (largely from gemming, never from reforging), I usually just missed out on some mastery (or crit) or used my unlucky avoidance gear as reforge banks. Given that I run HA almost exclusively (yeah, I'm stubborn like that), I simply hate to miss a CS since that means that I miss AT LEAST 1 HoPo, sometimes up to 3.

    Given some math (albeit small sample sizes) on MT, you can even see that running at 7.5% Exp is a net loss in HoPo generation over a 10min interval when playing at/around haste cap (i.e. 44% haste and 15% exp vs 50% hasted and 7.5% exp). Granted, I don't think anyone who has 40%+ haste is still sitting at/around 7.5% exp, but numbers are numbers. It's why I advocate AT LEAST going to the higher end of the 7.5-15% exp recommendation (13%+), with a strong preference for capping. That extra 2% to push a parry off of the table is only worth ~1% haste, or 1/3 of a ShotR in that timeframe.

    Still, most of this is pretty pointless in terms of GEARING, since we're tripping over caps this late in the tier and now will be faced with even more stats from the windfall of inflation in SoO. However, it's a pretty important GAME design issue, since it's basically illustrating the needs/wants/demands of the cutting edge raiders to utterly eliminate variance and RNG. Ironically, this is juxtapsoed by the outright admission of the Devs that they seek ways to inject RNG into the game "because it's fun and engaging", which is a fundamental difference in ideology.

    At the lowest of the low haste values (0-15% haste), you'll see a few extra HoPo/ShotRs per fight by favoring haste after 7.5% exp. However, that inflection point is ~25% haste where it breaks even and starts to decline, actually costing you throughput and generation as you surpass 40%.

    Personally, I don't use sims or reforge bots. I don't use nor have any idea what my TMI is. Trying to sim a tank is like trying to read tea leaves; you can get results, but they don't really tell you anything useful in practice. That said, I do believe in math and statistics, and for that reason alone (although supported by my OCD nature to eliminate variance) I choose (and recommend when possible) 15% expertise. I don't mind dipping a bit below (down to ~14.5%) if I cannot get my forges to 15% without going over, as I hate "wasted" stats almost more than I hate variance...
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You reduce the time it takes you to build an additional SotR. You also need to remember the extra SS ticks.
    You take a 7.5% chance for your CS to miss for the next SotR to be there 4% faster. (Going from 44% to 50% haste decreases CDs by 4%.) It should be clear that that's a drop in survivability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Ehr, what? You do realise that you are 100% guaranteed to get back to back SotRs even without hard cap? J is "hit capped" at 0 expertise, it always hits as long as you got the normal hit cap.
    How does J being capped guarantee back to back SotRs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would say likewise. Throwing away stats at expertise for new players makes no sense, especially in the next tier where we will be seeing more GC procs which do not benefit from expertise, aswell as CS no longer proccing GC.
    You could say the same for Haste in regards to GC procs. Regardless, gearing for 15% Expertise will net you more HoPo than gearing for 7.5% Expertise and 6% additional Haste (let alone that most of the 15% Expertise comes from reforging the 2nd stat on a Haste piece, so most of that 7.5% Expertise can't even be converted to Haste).

    If you want a good mix of Survivability and Damage Output, you gear for 7.5% Hit > 15% Expertise > Haste > the rest. For learning new fights, Stamina (especially on such convenient places as trinket slots) is by far your best call, as it will help you survive anything you didn't anticipate.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    You take a 7.5% chance for your CS to miss for the next SotR to be there 4% faster. (Going from 44% to 50% haste decreases CDs by 4%.) It should be clear that that's a drop in survivability.
    Yes, nothig that I disagree with. This entire discussion is a bit outdated, it was more relevant in T14, and is only relevant for people currenty gearing up.

    Nobody with 44% haste is going to sit at 7.5 expertise, that is the problem. If you in some way actualy manage to sit at 44% haste and 7.5 expertise, of course go for the expertise. The thing now is that people beging to reach exp cap at 25-35% haste even with haste>exp prio.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    How does J being capped guarantee back to back SotRs?
    SotR costs 3 holy power.

    2*3 = 6
    5+1 = 6

    2*3=5+1

    Guaranteed back to back.




    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    You could say the same for Haste in regards to GC procs. Regardless, gearing for 15% Expertise will net you more HoPo than gearing for 7.5% Expertise and 6% additional Haste (let alone that most of the 15% Expertise comes from reforging the 2nd stat on a Haste piece, so most of that 7.5% Expertise can't even be converted to Haste).

    If you want a good mix of Survivability and Damage Output, you gear for 7.5% Hit > 15% Expertise > Haste > the rest. For learning new fights, Stamina (especially on such convenient places as trinket slots) is by far your best call, as it will help you survive anything you didn't anticipate.
    GC procs do scale with haste, something a lot of people seem to be forgetting. Shorter GCD = more GC procs.

    It feels lie you are basing your standpoint for someone that already got high haste (35%+). I do not disagree that in extremely high haste levels expertise>haste. Though for new players just starting out, there is no reason to sit a 15 expertise at 8% haste.
    For 10 man, stamina is also a fairly weak stat.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    You take a 7.5% chance for your CS to miss for the next SotR to be there 4% faster. (Going from 44% to 50% haste decreases CDs by 4%.) It should be clear that that's a drop in survivability.
    Nope, we take few % chance (depending on gear, but typically it isn't higher than 2-3%) for our CS to miss to gain:

    - higher HPS via SS
    - more HoPo, and higher SotR uptime
    - higher DPS

    And with proper play it isn't a drop in survivability, it can actually increase it!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Nope, we take few % chance (depending on gear, but typically it isn't higher than 2-3%) for our CS to miss to gain:

    - higher HPS via SS
    - more HoPo, and higher SotR uptime
    - higher DPS

    And with proper play it isn't a drop in survivability, it can actually increase it!
    At those haste levels it is actually a drop in HoPo regen however, though that high haste with that low expertise seems very unreasonable to me.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #39
    Ok, so let's assume a low level of haste, then. I'm also going to assume the following rotation, just to make sure we're on the same line:

    CS -> J -> X -> CS -> X -> J -> CS -> X -> X -> repeat

    Let's say the 2nd J in that rotation takes us to 5 HoPo. CS is next in line, so we're going to use SotR, leaving us with 2 HoPo. Our next CS just happens to be parried. We have about 2 to 2.5 seconds left on our SotR, and the next generator is 4.5 seconds ahead. If there's a Triple Puncture or similar coming up in that gap, we're dead.

    Of course we could just sit on our 5 HoPo for a few more seconds, knowing a Triple Puncture will come in soon, and assuring ourselves we have the HoPo ready. Unfortunately, that means we'll go for a couple of seconds without HoPo, and thus more damage intake, right at the moment where we actually want to be topped. With any bad luck, the healers don't react to that sudden extra incoming damage in time, and we're still dead.

    Either way you look at it, missing a CS every now and then will lead to more spiky damage, no matter how you slice it.



    For an undergeared and underexperienced paladin tank, Stamina is a far better survival stat than Haste. Anyone who's trying to get ready for raiding and asking out for help is probably both. A safer tactic would be to recommend people to go for Stamina until they feel comfortable about their damage intake and then switch to secondary stats. Stamina will always help. The other stats only help if you actually press your buttons, and only help adequately if you time your buttons correctly.

    Of course, if you're in 537 gear, and only 6/13 on your way through 10 man heroics, you have quite a bit more stamina on your gear than the encounter was attuned to. Being behind on progression means you're overgearing content. With a lot more stamina from gear, you can get away with going for minimal extra stamina. Going for Haste over Stamina moves our priority from Survival to DPS Output, which on 10 man is often a valid option, as once people start to learn the fight, Berserk timers are more often an issue than sudden Tank deaths.

  20. #40
    I am just gonna take a guess that you tank 25 man Thels.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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