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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    At those haste levels it is actually a drop in HoPo regen however, though that high haste with that low expertise seems very unreasonable to me.
    Exactly, after around 25-30%, if you're not capped on Exp, you lose HoPo/min stacking haste > exp, as I noted above.

    But, again, if you're at that level of haste, you're also likely at ~10-12% exp innately, unless you have a very odd gear setup. Even so, you're probably already forging everything that ISN'T haste or expertise, INTO haste or expertise, as assuming you're going for haste items, that means the majority of reforges default to expertise. The only possible way for Expertise to negatively interfere with your haste levels is via gemming (Orange or, god forbid, straight red Exp gems), which even then is only 160 haste a pop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Nope, we take few % chance (depending on gear, but typically it isn't higher than 2-3%) for our CS to miss to gain:

    - higher HPS via SS
    - more HoPo, and higher SotR uptime
    - higher DPS

    And with proper play it isn't a drop in survivability, it can actually increase it!
    Sure, it doesn't have to be 7.5% to 6%. It can of course come in smaller numbers, but the ratios will be more or less the same. The chance of missing our most frequent HoPo generator is quite a bit larger than the additional speed at which extra HoPo is generated, so it's a loss in HoPo and thus lower SotR uptime.

    The HPS from SS will increase, but the HPS from SoI will actually decrease with a bigger number.

    Higher DPS could be true. I haven't recently simmed stats for DPS increase.

    What is this magical "proper play" that increases your survivability, when CS is being parried, J happens to be on cooldown, and you need SotR to mitigate a boss ability?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    What is this magical "proper play" that increases your survivability, when CS is being parried, J happens to be on cooldown, and you need SotR to mitigate a boss ability?
    You not putting yourself in the situation in the first place? You can control your HoPo regenartation even below exp cap.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    Sure, it doesn't have to be 7.5% to 6%. It can of course come in smaller numbers, but the ratios will be more or less the same. The chance of missing our most frequent HoPo generator is quite a bit larger than the additional speed at which extra HoPo is generated, so it's a loss in HoPo and thus lower SotR uptime.

    The HPS from SS will increase, but the HPS from SoI will actually decrease with a bigger number.

    Higher DPS could be true. I haven't recently simmed stats for DPS increase.

    What is this magical "proper play" that increases your survivability, when CS is being parried, J happens to be on cooldown, and you need SotR to mitigate a boss ability?
    It's called banking holy-power, we have 5 for a good reason. Best to use it!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    At those haste levels it is actually a drop in HoPo regen however, though that high haste with that low expertise seems very unreasonable to me.
    Questionable.

    1) 50% haste & 7.5% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=2550
    gear_haste_rating=21250
    HoPo for CS and J: 177.26+127.11 = 304.37

    1) 44% haste & 15% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=5100
    gear_haste_rating=18700
    HoPo for CS and J: 183.38 + 120.84 = 304.22

    Although this difference of 0.015 HoPo/min (10min long fight) is way in the margin of error.

    End even then. I wasn't talking about such extreme hypothetical situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am just gonna take a guess that you tank 25 man Thels.
    Correct, since quite recently. I could link you my armory, but I'm currently in ret gear on the armory.

    I also don't enchant/gem for Strength. I'll slap on the Lei Shen stamina trinket and call it a day, as I'm overgearing my guild's content as well. You can get away with much less stamina than you can attain, and so can I. A player that newly joins the rank could use that stamina a lot more than you and me, though.



    Nonetheless, my point remains that hardcapping Expertise at the cost of Haste (and it rarely is at the cost of haste. Usually it's at the cost of Parry/Dodge/Crit/Mastery) will reduce incoming burst damage, even at 0% Haste.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    Correct, since quite recently. I could link you my armory, but I'm currently in ret gear on the armory.

    I also don't enchant/gem for Strength. I'll slap on the Lei Shen stamina trinket and call it a day, as I'm overgearing my guild's content as well. You can get away with much less stamina than you can attain, and so can I. A player that newly joins the rank could use that stamina a lot more than you and me, though.



    Nonetheless, my point remains that hardcapping Expertise at the cost of Haste (and it rarely is at the cost of haste. Usually it's at the cost of Parry/Dodge/Crit/Mastery) will reduce incoming burst damage, even at 0% Haste.
    Tbh i don't think anyone enchants/gems for Str.

    And Hardcapping Exp doesn't do anything to reduce incoming burst damage, the only one that does reduce burst damage is mastery.

    Haste vs Exp is more of a question of dmg smoothing, and running with 7.5% exp in the past for a while, i'd notice ~1-2 cs miss during 10 min fights which would put haste ahead with : faster HoP generation, quicker SS ticking , faster auto attack for SoI

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Questionable.

    1) 50% haste & 7.5% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=2550
    gear_haste_rating=21250
    HoPo for CS and J: 177.26+127.11 = 304.37

    1) 44% haste & 15% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=5100
    gear_haste_rating=18700
    HoPo for CS and J: 183.38 + 120.84 = 304.22

    Although this difference of 0.015 HoPo/min (10min long fight) is way in the margin of error.
    What exactly is the source of these numbers? CS ain't even 1.5 times J, so I'm not sure where you pull these numbers from, but they have little value.

    During a 10 minute fight with 0% Haste, we'll cast CS 133.33 times (600 seconds / 4.5 second CD).

    With 50% Haste, we'll cast CS 1.5 times as much, or 200 times. 15 of these will be parried, so we'll get 185 HoPo from CS. We'll cast 2 J for every 3 CS, so we'll cast J 133.33 times. 185 + 133.33 = 318.33 HoPo.

    With 44$ Haste, we'll cast CS 1.44 times as much (as 0% Haste), or 192 times. 0 of these will be parried, so we'll get 192 HoPo from CS. We'll cast 2 J for every 3 CS, so we'll cast J 128 times. 192 + 128 = 320 HoPo.

    The differences are very small, regardless of being at 0% or 50% Haste, so going for Haste or Expertise doesn't really matter for overall HoPo generation.

    However, 15% Expertise will guarantee that you'll be at 3 HoPo whenever you need that HoPo, whereas anything less than 15% Expertise can leave you stranded at 2 HoPo, and lead to your potential death.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    End even then. I wasn't talking about such extreme hypothetical situations.
    It doesn't really matter if you trade 7.5% expertise for 6% haste, or 1% expertise for 0.8% haste. The ratios remain the same.

  9. #49
    x: original number of CS/min
    y: original number of J/min
    HoPo/min = x+y

    now if we go from 44%->50% haste and 15%->7.5% exp:
    HoPo/min = x*(1.5/1.44)*(1-0.075) + y*(1.5/1.44)
    = x*0.963542 + y*1.041667

    JC__CJ_C_
    x = 3n
    y = 2n
    x = 3/2*y

    1) 2.5*y
    2) y*(1.445313+1.041667) = 2.48698*y

    Mathematically, that is a drop of 0.0052% of our HoPo generation.
    Even in such a extreme situation.

    -__________-
    You must be kidding me, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Tbh i don't think anyone enchants/gems for Str.
    My bad. That was a typing error. It should of course have been Stamina.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    And Hardcapping Exp doesn't do anything to reduce incoming burst damage, the only one that does reduce burst damage is mastery.
    But it does. Hardcapping Expertise will ensure a constant uptime of SotR. Going for more Haste at the cost of Expertise will mean that most SotRs will be packed even so slightly tighter together, but whenever you miss a CS, the SotRs will be further apart from each other. Missing a CS could potentially leave you starved of HoPo when you desperately need it to mitigate a boss ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Haste vs Exp is more of a question of dmg smoothing, and running with 7.5% exp in the past for a while, i'd notice ~1-2 cs miss during 10 min fights which would put haste ahead with : faster HoP generation, quicker SS ticking , faster auto attack for SoI
    During a 10 minute fight with say 40% Haste, you should be casting CS 186.66 times. On average, 14 CS would be parried.

    It's not faster HoPo generation. It's actually slower, though the difference is miniscule. SS ticks more often, but SoI will tick less often, since you'll miss more attacks than you gain from Haste.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    x: original number of CS/min
    y: original number of J/min
    HoPo/min = x+y

    now if we go from 44%->50% haste and 15%->7.5% exp:
    HoPo/min = x*(1.5/1.44)*(1-0.075) + y*(1.5/1.44)
    = x*0.963542 + y*1.041667

    JC__CJ_C_
    x = 3n
    y = 2n
    x = 3/2*y

    1) 2.5*y
    2) y*(1.445313+1.041667) = 2.48698*y

    Mathematically, that is a drop of 0.0052% of our HoPo generation.
    Even in such a extreme situation.

    -__________-
    You must be kidding me, right?
    The difference in HoPo generation during the course of the fight is so small, we can practically ignore it. Thus, you gain nothing by gaining Haste at the cost of Expertise, but lose out on the guaranteed 3 banked HoPo.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    snip
    120.84 x 1.5 = 181.26
    181.26 ~ 183.38

    For whatever reason SimC decided to use CS a extra 2 times under 10 minutes. But that happens!

    But if you want to see comparissions, then check these in this post:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22187846

    And/or post your own results!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    The difference in HoPo generation during the course of the fight is so small, we can practically ignore it. Thus, you gain nothing by gaining Haste at the cost of Expertise, but lose out on the guaranteed 3 banked HoPo.
    The difference in HoPo generation during the course of the fight is so small, we can practically ignore it. Thus, you gain nothing by adding Expertise at the cost of DPS and SS absorbs!
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Questionable.

    1) 50% haste & 7.5% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=2550
    gear_haste_rating=21250
    HoPo for CS and J: 177.26+127.11 = 304.37

    1) 44% haste & 15% exp
    gear_expertise_rating=5100
    gear_haste_rating=18700
    HoPo for CS and J: 183.38 + 120.84 = 304.22

    Although this difference of 0.015 HoPo/min (10min long fight) is way in the margin of error.

    End even then. I wasn't talking about such extreme hypothetical situations.
    Yeah, of course. Should also be noted that Haste increases HoPo regeneration from parried/dodged GC procs aswell, since there is less chance of proc overlapping.

    I have not done the maths since 5.0 to be honest on that, when GC had 20% chance to proc from CS. The changes to GC favors haste more. Did the GC changes make that big difference? If it is really that close now at 44% haste, I would say Haste always wins out, when you take the SS ticks into consideration.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You not putting yourself in the situation in the first place? You can control your HoPo regenartation even below exp cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    It's called banking holy-power, we have 5 for a good reason. Best to use it!
    Ok, tell me how, then, because I only see 2 possible options.

    Let's assume that J brings you to 5 HoPo. CS is about to come off cooldown, and a few seconds from now the boss is about to use a special.

    1) We can sit on our 5 HoPo, wasting the HoPo that CS would provide or using filler spells instead of CS. Either way it's a loss in HoPo. It also means that we're not actively mitigating the damage prior to the boss's special, meaning we'll take extra damage leading up to the boss' special, letting our healers work hard to top us back up in time.

    2) We can spend that HoPo on a SotR, which drops us to 2 HoPo. CS should bring us back to 3 HoPo, but there's a chance it leaves us starved at 2 HoPo. It takes 3 GCDs before CS and J are available again. SotR will have expired before that time, leaving you at the risk of certain doom from the boss special.

    Now, if you have a brilliant way of controlling your HoPo without wasting any and without the guarantee that CS will generate it's HoPo, please, do tell!

  14. #54
    I'm honestly wondering in which world and gearset you can drop 7.5% expertise and pick up 6% haste. Also, can people stop bringing up "Haste means more GC procs" because that won't mean shit next patch (I.E. IN 2 WEEKS). You might as well prepare for september 10/11. Because if you're honestly trying to min/max yourself for the next 2 week period, then you are either stupid undergeared and tanking heroics or you think you're a god among men because you've cleared 12/12 normal and 5/13 heroic.



  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    But it does. Hardcapping Expertise will ensure a constant uptime of SotR. Going for more Haste at the cost of Expertise will mean that most SotRs will be packed even so slightly tighter together, but whenever you miss a CS, the SotRs will be further apart from each other. Missing a CS could potentially leave you starved of HoPo when you desperately need it to mitigate a boss ability.
    I played below expertise hard cap for 1.5 tiers, I never, ever, ever did not have enough HoPo for a boss ability because I got parried.

    If you find yourself in that situation that a parry causes you to not have HoPo to mitigate a boss ability, that is simply bad play and bad hopo control from the players end.

    From a 10 man PoV, getting a CS parried so you get a delayed SotR on just regular melee hits means nothing. The only thing important from 10 man PoV is mitigating the boss abilities. Getting higher haste over exp however gives your SS a higher % chance to be up for that big boss hit, which imo is more important.

    Also, if you bank HoPo properly (i.e. not spam sotr as soon as you hit 3 HoPo), getting a parried CS does not really alter the downtime / uptime between each SotR.

    Say I use SotR at 5 HoPo, suddenly my CS gets parried, I can just use SotR at 4 HoPo on the next cycle and then build up to 5 again to "smoothen" out the parry.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, of course. Should also be noted that Haste increases HoPo regeneration from parried/dodged GC procs aswell, since there is less chance of proc overlapping.

    I have not done the maths since 5.0 to be honest on that, when GC had 20% chance to proc from CS. The changes to GC favors haste more. Did the GC changes make that big difference? If it is really that close now at 44% haste, I would say Haste always wins out, when you take the SS ticks into consideration.
    Admittedly, Haste will slightly decrease the chance of overlapping GC procs. Going from 44% to 50% haste reduces your GCD by 4.16%, so there's a 4.16% chance that the higher Haste would benefit from 2 chained GC procs, and the lower Haste would not.

    However, GC procs are an extra source of HoPo. We have to and can survive streams without GC procs. When we get a single GC proc, we are already less at risk of dying than we are on average. Getting 2 GC procs in a row gives us additional survivability when we least need it. These GC procs aren't magically going to place themselves wherever your CSs are going to miss, so even if it does increase SotR uptime (which will be minimal), it still means you get more SotR bundled at one moment and less SotR bundled at other moments, whereas less Haste and 15% Expertise would spread your SotRs out nicely, and guarantee you will never go without SotR for more than 2 swings in a row.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I played below expertise hard cap for 1.5 tiers, I never, ever, ever did not have enough HoPo for a boss ability because I got parried.

    If you find yourself in that situation that a parry causes you to not have HoPo to mitigate a boss ability, that is simply bad play and bad hopo control from the players end.
    Then tell us how you would control your HoPo in the following situation:

    You have 4 HoPo. Judgment is available. CS will be available next GCD. SotR is currently not up, nor do we currently have a GC proc. The boss is about to use a special in 3 to 6 seconds from now.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    I'm honestly wondering in which world and gearset you can drop 7.5% expertise and pick up 6% haste. Also, can people stop bringing up "Haste means more GC procs" because that won't mean shit next patch (I.E. IN 2 WEEKS). You might as well prepare for september 10/11. Because if you're honestly trying to min/max yourself for the next 2 week period, then you are either stupid undergeared and tanking heroics or you think you're a god among men because you've cleared 12/12 normal and 5/13 heroic.
    Haste means more GC procs in the next patch aswell.

    To put that to the extreme. If you are tanking 100 mobs (lk25 or whatever), and you have 0% and 50% haste, when do you think you will get the most GC procs?

    Haste does not directly increase the proc chance of GC, but it increases the speed in which you can use that GC proc allowing for a second proc much faster.

    But yes, as you say the gear set where you can drop to 7.5 expertise is often while gearing up. If you are only at 520 ilvl it is hard to drop even below 13 expertise

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    Then tell us how you would control your HoPo in the following situation:

    You have 4 HoPo. Judgment is available. CS will be available next GCD. SotR is currently not up, nor do we currently have a GC proc. The boss is about to use a special in 3 to 6 seconds from now.
    If the boss is about to hit a special in 3-6 seconds, I have 4 HoPo and CS and J is available.

    Simply hit CS->J
    Use SotR 0.01 seconds before the J, unless CS hits in which case you can hold the SotR for it to be closer to the big hit if you feel like it.

    The other option is to either hold back a HoPo generator or overcapping to get closer to the SotR hit. This scenario is exactly the same regardless of exp cap or not.

    Regardless is CS hits or not you will have a back to back SotR covering the big hit.

    Also, fail to see how being exp capped or not makes a difference in that scenario.
    Being exp capped has the same ultimatum as not being exped capped. Do you delay a hopo generator or not. It is the exact same thing.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-08-26 at 05:33 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #58
    A 4.16% increased chance of being able to utilize 2 GC procs in a row is far from "much faster", and as I mentioned before, receiving (and utilizing) several GC procs in a row increases your survivability when you least need it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Thels View Post
    A 4.16% increased chance of being able to utilize 2 GC procs in a row is far from "much faster", and as I mentioned before, receiving (and utilizing) several GC procs in a row increases your survivability when you least need it.
    We are talking about very small changes in stats that gives roughly the same effect. The differences are very small as expected. I do not see a hunter gemming crit over agility because "the difference is very small".
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If the boss is about to hit a special in 3-6 seconds, I have 4 HoPo and CS and J is available.
    Naturally, with CS available, you're going to press CS, and act according to the results. Hence, I presented a situation where CS lay in the near future, and you had to act before you knew the results.

    J is available, CS will be available next GCD. J would bring you to 5 HoPo, so you have 3 options:

    1: Press J (5 HoPo). Press SotR (2 HoPo). Press CS and hope it hits (2-3 HoPo). If it doesn't, you're stuck with 2 HoPo and here comes the boss special.

    2: Press J (5 HoPo). Press fillers as we sit on the 5 HoPo until the boss special is coming and we can press SotR and then CS.

    3: Press a filler (4 HoPo). Press CS (4-5 HoPo). If CS hits (5 HoPo), press SotR (2 HoPo) then J (3 HoPo). If CS misses (4 HoPo), press J (5 HoPo). Press SotR when the boss special comes.

    1 leaves us at the risk of death. 2 and 3 force us to waste HoPo. Please tell us how you would act instead, assuring that we will have the 3 HoPo available to react to the boss special without wasting HoPo.




    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Regardless is CS hits or not you will have a back to back SotR covering the big hit.
    No, you will not. You start with 4 HoPo. J provides 1 HoPo. If CS misses, it will provide 0 HoPo for a total of 5 HoPo. 5 HoPo does not give us back to back SotR coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Being exp capped has the same ultimatum as not being exped capped. Do you delay a hopo generator or not. It is the exact same thing.
    No, it's not. If you're Expertise capped, when you're at 5 HoPo and a generator is available, you can press SotR, followed by the generator, and be sure to be at 3 HoPo. You will be ready to react with a SotR after the current SotR is over.

    If you're not Expertise capped, when you're at 5 HoPo and a generator is available, pressing SotR leaves you with a chance to be stranded at 2 HoPo if the following CS misses. Not pressing SotR in anticipation of an upcoming boss special is wasting HoPo.



    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    We are talking about very small changes in stats that gives roughly the same effect. The differences are very small as expected. I do not see a hunter gemming crit over agility because "the difference is very small".
    Comparing apples with oranges here...

    We are not basing our choice of Haste and Expertise exclusively on the chance of wasting GC procs. Naturally, if that's the only thing they would affect, we would go purely for Haste.

    You're comparing a Hunter's total DPS output with only a small fraction of our output. It's like saying "Arcane shot benefits 0.01% more from Agility than it does from Crit, so you should completely go for Agility, regardless of what your other abilities benefit from."

    Yes, more Haste leads to more HoPo from GC, even in 5.4. However, the difference is very small, much smaller than the HoPo you need to waste sitting on 5 HoPo to prepare for that boss special.

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