Why do players hate Garrosh but like Sylvanas?

[Aquamonkey]

people always use cannon-fodder as such a negative term.....but its actually a valid tactic

They claim that Garrosh disproportionately uses other races as cannon-fodder because he is racist. But he puts orcs on the frontlines just as often. The only time Garrosh really seemed to just want the frontline forces to die was at Greymane wall, but he's hardly the only person racist against the Forsaken.

[Dreknar20]

They claim that Garrosh disproportionately uses other races as cannon-fodder because he is racist. But he puts orcs on the frontlines just as often.

Hell, you can argue he wants Orcs to be at the front as much as possible, since more combat = more honor/glory
Either way, using troops as cannon-fodder dsnt mean they are a terrible leader, it just sucks top be the cannon fodder

[nightfalls]

If Garrosh was in a BG he'd be one of those fuckwits fighting on the roads. Probably trying to kill a blood DK while a healer freecasts behind him.

"Probably?" Considering his status in both Orgrimmar and Siege of Orgrimmar as a tankable mob, I'm pretty sure that is exactly what he does.

[Deleted]

Okay, let's do this step by step:
Forget everything you know about zombies, act like you have never seen a single zombie-movie in your life.
Now explain to me why raising the dead is evil?

Raising the dead is only evil if you are raising them to do something evil.
Do you want to raise them to kill all (innocent) life on the planet? That would be evil.
Do you raise them because you want to rule the entire world and push everyone into slavery? That would be evil too.
Sylvanas doesn't want any of those two things, she raises people because that's how her Forsaken work, it's how they get born.
If you read some of the ingame text, you will see that many Forsaken see this as doing them a favour; being Forsaken is better than being dead.

We shouldn't call them zombies either. Zombies are usually braindead mindcontrolled beings.
The Forsaken raise them into undead with a free will.

What about those who are raised unwillingly? She is raising her very enemies, who just gave their lives to protect what they love, to destroy the evil that they hate. They are then forced to join forces with the very ones they tried to kill. I'm sure some of them are glad to be "alive", it's the human, or rather, humanoid instinct to cling to life no matter what.

Remember the humans in Silverpine Forest, they would rather become cursed werewolves if only to protect themselves from being reanimated. I think that goes to show how many are actually not fond of the idea of being raised as a Forsaken.

In the end I suppose we have differing ideas of what evil really is though, so we will probably never come to a full understanding on this one.

Let's not start about that one, I hate what they did to Kael'Thas.
He is fighting for his own people, doing everything to keep them alive and he gets accused of being evil all the time.
They couldn't have thought of a worse 'ending' than making him evil, so guess what they did.

They shouldn't have ended him at all, neither him nor Illidan. We had no reason to kill them, with exception of all the terrible lore they threw together in BC to justify doing it.

And they are making it so obvious that she is walking a fine line, the only follow-up is either going good or keep walking on that line.
Anything else would be boring and bad story-telling.

Blizzard has been known to put together terrible story-telling before, hence Kael'thas, and even now Garrosh.

7 years ago the USA gave the death penalty for treason.
Still silly?

Yes. And I don't even consider what he did as treason, all he did was hold the attack off for a while longer while regrouping. Sure, he let his enemy do the same, but expecting something else from someone who is like a brother too you, even in times of war, is just evil and morally wrong. He still carried out his orders, he never went against the ones he had. Unlike a certain Sylvanas.

Uhm.. so? Since when is "not listening to Garrosh" something evil?
We're going to kill him in a raid, so I don't see the problem with that.

Garrosh is and was at the time the Warchief of the Horde, it doesn't really matter if he was an idiot or not, going against his orders is if anything what should be considered treason. Should she be executed, perhaps?

Do you think the kings of the medieval times would take kindly to someone who directly opposes an order? Would today's military do so?

[Durandro]

Okay, let's do this step by step:
Forget everything you know about zombies, act like you have never seen a single zombie-movie in your life.
Now explain to me why raising the dead is evil?

There's so much wrong with this line of thinking that I don't even know where to start.

I think I'll just point out that if you ignore all previously known facts about a subject, nothing could be considered 'evil' because its a complete unknown.

Oh, and that the Forsaken are suffering due to their undeath. They hate it, and yet they inflict it on others? Yeah, I think that's the definition of evil - causing willful suffering to others.

- - - Updated - - -

Garrosh is and was at the time the Warchief of the Horde, it doesn't really matter if he was an idiot or not, going against his orders is if anything what should be considered treason. Should she be executed, perhaps?

Thrall was Warchief when Garrosh repeatedly disobeyed orders and disrespected him in public. Should Garrosh have been executed?

You see the problem there, right? You can't punish someone for doing things that you yourself did without being a massive hypocrit and unfit to lead.

[Frozenbeef]

I like them both, Garrosh for his ruthlessness, sylvanas for her cold controlling subtly they both know what they want and manipulate/ force others to see it their way and don't let anyone tread on them :P The vast majority of other characters seem to be pretty boring and have very little substance to them always doing what's right/ are way too submissive to their enemies.

[Deleted]

Thrall was Warchief when Garrosh repeatedly disobeyed orders and disrespected him in public. Should Garrosh have been executed?

You see the problem there, right? You can't punish someone for doing things that you yourself did without being a massive hypocrit and unfit to lead.

Grom did the same thing. Yes, Thrall could have chosen to consider it treason at the time, and he could have executed him for it. I'm not saying Sylvanas even should be executed, nor that she was really committing treason, I'm saying that if what that DK did was treason, then what Sylvanas did was a much graver version of it. He can't be a traitor without her being so.

Furthermore with Garrosh, he was still being tutored by Thrall so I doubt Thrall expected much else after knowing Grom like a brother.

[Scummer]

Okay, let's do this step by step:
Forget everything you know about zombies, act like you have never seen a single zombie-movie in your life.
Now explain to me why raising the dead is evil?

Haven't we had this discussion before?

In Warcraft necromancy corrupts the individual. Forcing corruption onto somebody is bad.

It corrupts their soul. They are unable to feel the light in a positive way, so you are cutting them off from their faith. It changes them emotionally to almost exclusively feel negative emotions. It fucks up their minds to the point where they will kill their comrades to which the Forsaken actively encourage and manipulate. They are physically changed into a decaying shell.
Why are the Forsaken doing this? To provide further numbers to wage war with.

They're corrupting the living day lights out of people who do not want to be corrupted for the purpose of waging war. Does that not strike you as "bad"?

[BHD]

Oh, and that the Forsaken are suffering due to their undeath. They hate it, and yet they inflict it on others? Yeah, I think that's the definition of evil - causing willful suffering to others.

You make it sound like anyone raised by sylvanas' val'kyr doesn't have the option of going back to the grave. Which they most certainly do. Hell, even if they accept their new "life" they don't have to follow her either.

[Racthoh]

this thread was over at the 1st reply.

[Deleted]

Read up on the lore, they aren't hating it nor do they feel like they are suffering.

That's why they have the option of going back to being death.

A man or woman who gives their life fighting to protect something they love, would never accept working with the very ones who killed him/her, ones who would destroy everything he held dear in life, unless his mind has somehow become twisted and changed.

Same as above.

No, not same as above, the fact that they preferred to take the curse over being raised shows that they knew that they would probably stay in the undead state if they were to be raised. They made use of the morality they had while they still could, and did what they had to do in order to prevent a fate worse than death.

Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We would rather die than be turned into worgen, but seeing as how even death provides no relief from the atrocities of this war...
Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We choose vengeance!

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27099#comments

If it was as simple as kill yourself again, why would they accept a curse that they would rather die before taking?

Well yes, that is quite clear.
You are unable to set aside your bias that all zombies are evil, which makes Forsaken-discussions impossible.

I don't care for zombies in general, other zombies outside of Warcraft is not why I have come to the conclusion that I have. My reasoning behind the Forsaken being evil purely comes from watching their actions and reasoning when questing for them. They have shown time and time again that they care only for themselves, and don't give a damn about other life forms. Same thing could perhaps be said about other races in Azeroth, and no they are in that case no better.

To use the famous words of Monty Python: "Well I didn't vote for you."
In case you missed it: He is trying to execute all the people who disobey his orders, including Sylvanas.
And again I would like to ask what exactly is evil about not following orders?

To oppose your king is to commit treason. It isn't necessarily the wrong thing do to, at the very least it's the only right thing to do in the eyes of a traitor, who probably see's themselves as a hero fighting against tyranny. It still doesn't make it any less treason.

Disobeying a direct order isn't evil in of itself, using plague as a weapon, thus showing no respect for life is.

[Jerakal]

A: Sylvanas is a woman. Female characters can frequently get away with murder, or far worse in fiction because they are often seen as less of a threat. Obviously not the case with Sylvanas. Female characters are often usually cut more slack as well, for reasons that often baffle me.

B: People were actually starting to notice how fucking evil and crazy Sylvanas has/is becoming in Cataclysm, she was up to all kinds of no good. Manufacturing a new plague, deploying it against orders, all of the shit she did in Gilneas. She's shaping up to want to be a brand new Lich Queen. BUT. All of this was quickly swept under the rug in the wake of Garrosh's transformation from angsty, entitled orcling into roid-raging monster orc hitler. Garrosh stole the limelight at the end of Cataclysm and throughout MoP, and Sylvanas has barely had any attention at all, at least not that I can see from the Alliance point of view. But I'm sure she's up to no good.

Hopefully with Garrosh's impending demise on the horizon, we can get to work with cleansing the horde of it's other evil leader in the near future.

[BHD]

A man or woman who gives their life fighting to protect something they love, would never accept working with the very ones who killed him/her, ones who would destroy everything he held dear in life, unless his mind has somehow become twisted and changed.

When they get reanimated they get to choose between going back to the grave or accepting their new "life", that is the first quest you do. Since so many humans hated undead in their first life, I think it's safe to say that most choose to not die again based on human survival instinct, when you actually get reanimated you might even think that you finally have a second chance of living. From there it's pretty much humans themselves that forces the newly risen to join Sylvanas, not Sylvanas herself. No one but her accepts them, and since they don't want to off themselves they join her.

I read somewhere that most Forsaken go back to their old homes only to get forced out by their own families running with torches. I'm not, however, sure where I read that, so it might not be canon. If it is, it would explain their newfound hatred. They have a second chance at life and everyone they love hates them.

If it was as simple as kill yourself again, why would they accept a curse that they would rather die before taking?

If they really wanted to die again after becoming undead, they would. The very first quest you do confirms this. Sylvanas isn't forcing anyone to stay undead, she simply reanimates them and asks if they think that's cool or if they want to go back to being dead.

I don't care for zombies in general, other zombies outside of Warcraft is not why I have come to the conclusion that I have. My reasoning behind the Forsaken being evil purely comes from watching their actions and reasoning when questing for them. They have shown time and time again that they care only for themselves, and don't give a damn about other life forms. Same thing could perhaps be said about other races in Azeroth, and no they are in that case no better.

If the same thing can be said for other races (Hi belves/orcs/goblins!) then Sylvanas and her Forsaken are indeed not any more evil than the other races. Might as well end the thread at this point then. Races do what they can to survive, Forsaken just happened to figure out their own way since they can't have sex.

[Deleted]

When they get reanimated they get to choose between going back to the grave or accepting their new "life", that is the first quest you do. Since so many humans hated undead in their first life, I think it's safe to say that most choose to not die again based on human survival instinct, when you actually get reanimated you might even think that you finally have a second chance of living. From there it's pretty much humans themselves that forces the newly risen to join Sylvanas, not Sylvanas herself. No one but her accepts them, and since they don't want to off themselves they join her.

I read somewhere that most Forsaken go back to their old homes only to get forced out by their own families running with torches. I'm not, however, sure where I read that, so it might not be canon. If it is, it would explain their newfound hatred. They have a second chance at life and everyone they love hates them.



If they really wanted to die again after becoming undead, they would. The very first quest you do confirms this. Sylvanas isn't forcing anyone to stay undead, she simply reanimates them and asks if they think that's cool or if they want to go back to being dead.

Then how do you explain the actions of Magistrate Henry Maleb? In the first quests as a Forsaken you're also told that the mind isn't always quite what it was before, which goes to show that it's altered in the process.

If they actually try to seek out their still alive relatives as a Forsaken, and are surprised when they are faced with disgust and hatred, then they truly do not know what they have become... They themselves hated the Forsaken just as much when they were still alive.

If the same thing can be said for other races (Hi belves/orcs/goblins!) then Sylvanas and her Forsaken are indeed not any more evil than the other races. Might as well end the thread at this point then. Races do what they can to survive, Forsaken just happened to figure out their own way since they can't have sex.

Blood Elves, Orcs and Goblins do not force their enemies to fight for them. I will agree upon that there are lots of their kind that can definitely be considered both evil, greedy and "bad". But they also have a lot of positive qualities amongst their ranks to even it all out, something the Forsaken is pretty much lacking completely.

[BHD]

Then how do you explain the actions of Magistrate Henry Maleb? In the first quests as a Forsaken you're also told that the mind isn't always quite what it was before, which goes to show that it's altered in the process.

Magistrate Henry Maleb hasn't been reanimated, he doesn't know what it is like. He doesn't understand why the ones risen would fight against humans, but because he doesn't understand it doesn't become fact that forsaken are all controlled.

Some may start out a bit crazy after becoming undead, but don't they become more rational after a while? I don't actually remember exactly what they say about it (a link would be very appreciated!). But still, there has been no confirmation that any Forsaken are acting against their will.

If they actually try to seek out their still alive relatives as a Forsaken, and are surprised when they are faced with disgust and hatred, then they truly do not know what they have become... They themselves hated the Forsaken just as much when they were still alive.

If you were revived, no matter how, wouldn't you try to return to your family, reasoning with them that you're still you? While human, you hate undead, when undead, you see everything from another point of view. All you want is to live again, but your loved ones just don't understand!

Blood Elves, Orcs and Goblins do not force their enemies to fight for them. I will agree upon that there are lots of their kind that can definitely be considered both evil, greedy and "bad". But they also have a lot of positive qualities amongst their ranks to even it all out, something the Forsaken is pretty much lacking completely.

There are Forsaken (even scourge, that one horseman) who are rather friendly. Some even join neutral factions to aid in the greater good of the world.

[Wildberry]

There are Forsaken (even scourge, that one horseman) who are rather friendly. Some even join neutral factions to aid in the greater good of the world.

I'm not sure that Sir Zeliek, and a lone forsaken in an Argent Tabard are worth taking into consideration in a matter like this.

[Deleted]

Magistrate Henry Maleb hasn't been reanimated, he doesn't know what it is like. He doesn't understand why the ones risen would fight against humans, but because he doesn't understand it doesn't become fact that forsaken are all controlled.

Some may start out a bit crazy after becoming undead, but don't they become more rational after a while? I don't actually remember exactly what they say about it (a link would be very appreciated!). But still, there has been no confirmation that any Forsaken are acting against their will.

It sounds like you are defending the act of brain washing... Just because he hasn't been reanimated he doesn't know what it's like? Really? You speak of it as if it's a good thing to die and be reanimated. What you become is seen by most as a monster, and for good reason. The fact that they do no longer understand this only goes to show just how horrifying it is.

If you were revived, no matter how, wouldn't you try to return to your family, reasoning with them that you're still you? While human, you hate undead, when undead, you see everything from another point of view. All you want is to live again, but your loved ones just don't understand!

I'm sure I would, but if I no longer understand why they hate me for what I have become, then am I really still myself? It's neither normal nor natural to completely switch moralities like that, and it can only really be done with mind altering or brain washing like magic.

There are Forsaken (even scourge, that one horseman) who are rather friendly. Some even join neutral factions to aid in the greater good of the world.

Yep, but they are incredibly rare.

I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore.

I broke my vows with the Forsaken and joined the Crusade. Now, I use my knowledge of alchemy to seek a counter-plague agent. And the Plaguewood is the perfect place to do so.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=45828#comments

I never said that they were controlled, as in mind controlled, I don't believe that they are. I believe that their minds are altered upon reanimation, to better suit the needs of the re-animator. It's not like Sylvanas would gain much by raising Forsaken who immediately take up arms and attack her, because that would be a normal thing to do when raised by your enemy.

[BHD]

It sounds like you are defending the act of brain washing... Just because he hasn't been reanimated he doesn't know what it's like? Really? You speak of it as if it's a good thing to die and be reanimated. What you become is seen by most as a monster, and for good reason. The fact that they do no longer understand this only goes to show just how horrifying it is.

I'm not defending brain washing, I'm arguing that there is no brain washing taking place in the first place. Yes, undeath is seen by most as a horrible fate to suffer, but when you get reanimated yourself it might be a totally different matter. When in the situation where you have to choose between undeath and death, it seems a lot would rather choose undeath. Why that is we don't know, you think it's because their brains were altered in the reanimation, I think it's because they just don't want to die. Again.

I'm sure I would, but if I no longer understand why they hate me for what I have become, then am I really still myself? It's neither normal nor natural to completely switch moralities like that, and it can only really be done with mind altering or brain washing like magic.

To see everyone you love turn against you based on your appearance sounds like a traumatic enough experience for you to turn against them as well. For the argument's sake, let's say that we (the players) know as fact that Forsaken are not brain washed in any way, but the humans in-game surely don't. So before being raised they think that all undead are monsters, zombies without any will of their own that has come back to kill them all, but after turning and understanding that that is not the case, they try to go back and explain this to their family without any success. They might understand why the humans hate them, but now they know that it's all wrong, and if their families understood that they could all live happily again. Surely they must become very frustrated at their loved ones for not giving them a chance.

Yep, but they are incredibly rare.

But they still exist. So either forsaken aren't brainwashed or those few individuals weren't, but if forsaken in general are, why not brain wash them as well?

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=45828#comments

If you're hinting at this NPC thinking that the Banshee-Queen has changed to more evil ways, we don't know that. He doesn't explain what changed about her. Maybe she just became too obsessed on revenge against Arthas whereas this NPC only wanted to live freely, instead of gearing up for war.

I never said that they were controlled, as in mind controlled, I don't believe that they are. I believe that their minds are altered upon reanimation, to better suit the needs of the re-animator. It's not like Sylvanas would gain much by raising Forsaken who immediately take up arms and attack her, because that would be a normal thing to do when raised by your enemy.

Sorry, I read brain washed and thought mind controlled, they sound so similar.

Redpath and some others do take up arms against her as soon as they are reanimated. If their brains were altered upon reanimating, surely they wouldn't have done that.

[Marce]

A: Sylvanas is a woman. Female characters can frequently get away with murder, or far worse in fiction because they are often seen as less of a threat. Obviously not the case with Sylvanas. Female characters are often usually cut more slack as well, for reasons that often baffle me.

While this bias does exist, it's generally not the reason people like Sylvanas. I really wish every female character in the game wasn't judged based on appearance first when detractors seek to make a sweeping generalization about the fan base, most of whom do not know/care about the lore of Warcraft regardless of gender.

B: People were actually starting to notice how fucking evil and crazy Sylvanas has/is becoming in Cataclysm, she was up to all kinds of no good. Manufacturing a new plague, deploying it against orders, all of the shit she did in Gilneas. She's shaping up to want to be a brand new Lich Queen. BUT. All of this was quickly swept under the rug in the wake of Garrosh's transformation from angsty, entitled orcling into roid-raging monster orc hitler. Garrosh stole the limelight at the end of Cataclysm and throughout MoP, and Sylvanas has barely had any attention at all, at least not that I can see from the Alliance point of view. But I'm sure she's up to no good.

It's important to note that the context under which these actions were taken have absolutely nothing in common with Garrosh. In fact, the entire war in Gilneas was the fault of Garrosh, who forced the Forsaken into a needless war against the most naturally and artificially fortified nation on the planet. A war that they only won by the cleverness of Sylvanas and pure luck, yet still only managed to survive - not win - by the skin of their teeth.

In truth, the entire war with Gilneas appeared to be designed specifically to destroy the Forsaken. You are all free to speculate as to why that is, but I believe it has to do with Garrosh developing some level of hatred for all undead during the war in Northrend, especially after Wrathgate, though that wasn't truly the fault of the Forsaken.

The Forsaken were in no way, shape, or form, prepared to fight a war with Gilneas. They had sustained heavy losses abroad against the Scourge, and suffered losses described in the "hundreds" to Varimathras' insurgency. This, in combination with the many battles they had already fought before Wrath of the Lich King against the Wolfcult, the Scarlet Crusade, the Alliance, the Syndicate, and the Scourge alone made the war a horrible choice.

Worse, Gilneas was surrounded by impassable reefs on its coast that prevented the Forsaken navy from making landfall, the Greymane Wall on the north side (possibly the most heavily fortified man-made defence in existence at the time), and a full army of humans

The only reason to attack Gilneas was the fear that Garrosh would abandon the Forsaken to be devoured by their neighbours.

Additionally, the reasons the Forsaken survived the war were born of circumstances that Hellscream could not possibly anticipate. Allying with the Wolfcult and having the Bloodfang attack Gilneas City was the first of these circumstances - the Wolfcult was the enemy of the Forsaken once, why should Garrosh expect them to aid the Dark Lady? That alliance of mutual benefit fixed much of the population problem for the Forsaken, but there's something else Garrosh couldn't see coming...

...The cataclysm destroyed the coral reefs that protected Gilneas, along with the Greymane Wall and one of Gilneas' largest villages, which made invading the country from land and sea extremely easy for the Forsaken. Somewhere along the line, Sylvanas even got her hands on the Scythe of Elune, which might have permanently turned the tide of the war had Crowley not gotten hold of it before it could reach the Banshee Queen.

Despite their best efforts, everything turned around on the Forsaken. The worgen got the Scythe and control of their worgen forms, the Gilneans had formed a resistance, and they were poised to take back their capital from Sylvanas. There is a very good reason Garrosh sends a man to remind her that the Blight is off-limits - there is no way the Forsaken could have lasted long enough for orcish reinforcements to arrive without it. That's probably the reason the Forsaken needed to make the Gilneans perform slave labour, though it's likely they would have no qualms about doing so without the excuse.

Assuming Garrosh expected Sylvanas to follow orders, this means he was willing to leave her defenceless against the resistance and the counter-invasion that would ensue in the wake of Gilneas joining the Alliance and retaking their kingdom. That orcish reinforcements arrive at the last second leads me to speculate that Garrosh intended the Forsaken to be wiped out by the time he arrived on the battlefield. If that's true, then he definitely intended to take Gilneas - and the rest of northern Lordaeron - for the orcs alone.

Said counter-offensive DID eventually happen later on, but the Forsaken only survived THAT by other means that Garrosh could never possibly forsee. Sylvanas' absence from the battlefield left Garrosh to freely use the Forsaken in the only capacity he knows when it comes to using other races: cannon fodder. Her return with the val'kyr and new attitude that it is not okay to waste her subjects not only saved the Forsaken, but gave them the means to keep fighting the now-uphill battle against the Gilneas Liberation Front.

Ignoring the moral implications of necromancy (which the Forsaken perform with the "most" compassion of any group ever to utilize the tactic), the Banshee Queen made a very good point when she said "Without these new Forsaken, my people will die out" upon displaying the val'kyr's ability to the Warchief. The Forsaken cannot possibly have the numbers to contest Gilneas alone, and the addition of the val'kyr became imperative when Crowley added Bloodfang and Hillsbrad worgen to his forces. The moment the Alliance sent the 7th Legion really could have been the end of the Forsaken had the Banshee Queen not resurrected Godfrey.

Say what you will about the wisdom of trusting Godfrey - they needed him. Without him and his cohorts, they could not have claimed Pyrewood, cut off 7th Legion support, or pushed the GLF out of Silverpine.

Southshore was an ongoing conflict that lasted years, according to Orkus, but the fact that it was a great atrocity does not escape my notice. Sylvanas, however, will never see it that way. This is the issue that we have when discussing Forsaken morality: the Banshee Queen cares not for morality. Since her resurrection (and implicitly before) she has been amoral in her approach to dealing with her enemies. This approach has always worked when the Forsaken are on the defensive, but also makes them appear monstrous when they are on the offensive.

Amorality is a feature of the race; it's not something that's going to change any sooner than goblins will stop loving money. I may not condone Gilneas or Southshore, but I can see that the question for a Forsaken is clearly not "was this a justifiable action?" but "did this action further our goals?" That is why Forsaken fans tend to agree with it - to identify with the Forsaken is to remove morality from all but the most extreme cases (Stillwater, for example), and to only show genuine concern for your undead comrades above all others.

Oh, as for Andorhal, the difference between Sylvanas disobeying orders and Koltira disobeying orders is that Koltira Deathweaver is not the leader of a sovereign nation allied with the Horde whose detention would result in immediate backlash. He was a soldier put in command of Sylvanas' people, and he allowed them to die needlessly to protect a cross-faction friendship that never needed to be cross-faction.

Hopefully with Garrosh's impending demise on the horizon, we can get to work with cleansing the horde of it's other evil leader in the near future.

The ultimate flaw in this logic is that the Forsaken aren't the orcs. The Forsaken aren't meant to be honourable, kind, or good. They are meant to be morally grey, or even morally black, as they fight for survival, for vengeance against hated foes, or to create a place where they can be left alone.

Unlike the orcs, the vast majority of Forsaken not only think like, but worship Sylvanas and, take my word, if you speak to the average Forsaken apothecary, Sylvanas' pragmatic evil is the lesser of two evils. Many apothecaries still prattle on about plaguing the world and destroying the living, but Sylvanas has never expressed desires similar to this, primarily because they would not be in her best interests or

As for whether Sylvanas cares about the Forsaken: she will never care about them in a capacity as warm as Thrall cares for the orcs, or Lor'themar the blood elves. Yes, to her they are tools, but they are a tool she cares for and wishes to preserve, not a tool to be expended. They are important to her the way a shield is important to a warrior when the might of her opponent bears down upon her, the only barrier between life and death being how long that shield can hold and whether she can strike back at her opponents.

And, honestly, why should anyone expect more than that from her? It's more than she's given and it's consistent with her amoral, pragmatic personality. Ad why should anyone expect the Forsaken to give a damn about anyone but themselves beyond their contribution to their own survival? That's consistent with their amoral, pragmatic culture.

[delus]

No, when Blight is at full strength it vaporizes people. The Blight used on Southshore wasn't even full strength and it liquified flesh and makes the area lethal for 100 years. It was described as "fairly potent". There isn't any glowing radioactive ooze anywhere in Gilneas, so whatever crap they used there was watered down.

It was used at full strength in Gilneas. The blight is ineffective against worgen. The lower ranks simply thought it was watered down because it did not work. They were ordered to stop using it. Either way you try to spin it, they were disobeying Garrosh's orders which is the whole damn point that you are oblivious to. Southshore Chronologically happens after Gilneas. They used a different strain on southshore, thinking the one they used on worgen was defective.