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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivion View Post
    Hey there! Don't know if you're still following this thread, but I figured I'd throw something out for you to chew on.

    First off, questing has to be viewed as a timeline. Events in Tirisfal happen before Silverpine, before WPL. We can work with Tirisfal > Silverpine > Hillsbrad > WPL pretty easily.

    In Tirisfal, new players are greeted, and informed they have a choice. Live or die. They pick to live, so they remain a member of the Forsaken and begin undertaking small missions.

    They get to Silverpine and witness many more resurrections. But something goes wrong. One of the newly resurrected Forsaken does what is in all honesty, the most likely thing for a newly raised Forsaken to do. Godfrey shoots Sylvanas right in the head, because she's still his enemy. He then breaks away and becomes a massive thorn in her side for a while.

    Surprisingly, from my memory, Hillsbrad doesn't have a -ton- of resurrecting going on in it. It's just plague this, plague that, traitor, traitor, abduct some Alliance forces, so on so forth.

    The next time you really see the Val'kyr in full on conversion mode is in WPL. And you yourself are given the task of taking her around to rez up dead Alliance to fight for Andorhal. But their reactions are... odd. Quotes like
    "I suppose I serve the Horde now."
    They stand up and, without much, or any communication from the Val'kyr or player, wage war against the Alliance. Just like that.

    Isn't it likely, that the timeline is thus?
    Tirisfal= No problems. Corpses allowed to retain free will upon return. High convergence rate.
    Silverpine= Slight snag. Godfrey killed Sylvanas. Clearly this freewill thing is a bit dangerous.
    Hillsbrad= Now we're abducting live SI:7 guys instead of killing them. Why?
    WPL= No more Mr. Nice undeath. They will be slaves and they will be used to kill their one time commander and friends, seconds after being reanimated.

    It's at least a little fishy, no?
    WPL is not full conversion mode. The Val'kyr in Deathknell are raising hundreds every day. What they do on the battlefield is for strategic advantage. When someone is raised after dying under extreme stress, they are in a temporary crazed state and easily taken advantage of.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
    Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave. (Souce)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    WPL: You ress an undead and he joins the Forsaken.
    Doesn't sound fishy anymore.
    No, you rez DOZENS of undead who behave the same way. And then you take them to immediately kill their former comrades and commander, all without a peep. It's a sudden change of heart so massive that there is no explanation for it, short of the revelation that all those Alliance farmers and militia were secretly waiting for an excuse to kill other humans without getting yelled at.

    You're simplifying, I'm extrapolating. "You ressed a guy and he joins the forsaken" is about as dry as it gets. "You res a farmer you JUST killed and his first reaction is to be like "Huh, guess I'll go fight my former friends now,"" is completely different.

    You go in there, with a small army of people dedicated to reclaiming the land for the Alliance and turning it into fertile land, and you force them to do the opposite. You conquer it for the Forsaken, which don't seem overly concerned with the land in general and slaughter their former allies.

    Tell me that's an act of free will.

    Edit:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
    Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave. (Souce)
    Blizzard has appeared to provide an answer, so I'll concede here. I would wish for better writing though, because NONE of the undead you raise in WPL seem raged, or even mildly upset. They even have the mental fortitude for you to turn them into a small fighting team and follow you into battle AFTER BEING TRAINED. Either an utter failure of writing, or a quick cover your ass from Blizzard. Sad.
    Last edited by Ivion; 2013-08-21 at 06:57 PM.

  3. #503
    The Lightbringer Grubjuice's Avatar
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    1) we don't know exactly all the context around how each new forsaken died before being raised by te Valkyr (true, we see some living humans are being killed by Sylvanas' Val'kyr just to raise them, which seems dubious; but some humans may have just died through various circumstances)

    2) perhaps there is a hell, and one's brief experience being dead and in hell is worse than the experience of being undead and within a few seconds of being raised a person can know they would rather be undead than dead, and so they make a quick decision with very little convincing.

    3) We know that some of those raised are not intelligent enough to be foresaken (zombies); some refuse to join the foresaken, and some take a long time to come to terms with being turned (lilian voss), so concievably playable new foresaken who willing join the horde might represent only a tiny percentage of all the undead attempt to raise, and most are duds.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasstapp View Post
    I think the obvious answer is this: He has no nipples.
    I always knew something was off with him in-game, but I just couldn't place it. Now I know.

    His loading screen art, on the other hand...
    Bessiepage - Korgath (US) / Acekicker - Ghostlands (US) / Maristraza - Ghostlands (US) / Niimeria - Korgath (US) / Khanga - Korgath (US)


  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivion View Post
    No, you rez DOZENS of undead who behave the same way. And then you take them to immediately kill their former comrades and commander, all without a peep. It's a sudden change of heart so massive that there is no explanation for it, short of the revelation that all those Alliance farmers and militia were secretly waiting for an excuse to kill other humans without getting yelled at.

    You're simplifying, I'm extrapolating. "You ressed a guy and he joins the forsaken" is about as dry as it gets. "You res a farmer you JUST killed and his first reaction is to be like "Huh, guess I'll go fight my former friends now,"" is completely different.
    If you don't want me to simplify stuff, than people should try and provide a link to the actual quest instead of quoting random stuff that gives ZERO results on Google.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    If you don't want me to simplify stuff, than people should try and provide a link to the actual quest instead of quoting random stuff that gives ZERO results on Google.
    http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Ace_in_the_Hole

    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=26937

    In both of these, you use the Val'kyr's ability "charm" on the newly raised Forsaken. Presumably, this doesn't mean she flirts with the Undead to get them to team up with you.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    "Your people will perish!" said the dark-haired Val'kyr. She had clearly been the youngest of the battlemaidens in life and was now the most impatient in her undeath.

    Sylvanas thought about her people. They had come far from their decimated origins, the yearning, confused mob of fresh corpses huddled about the ruins of Lordaeron's wrecked capital. The Forsaken were truly a nation now: a fetid, gore-caked, hideous mass of lifeless husks, skilled in combat, devastating with the arcane arts, and unhindered by fetters of morality. They had been honed into the perfect weapon. Her weapon. And they had struck the killing blow for which she had built them. She cared nothing for their fate.

    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!"
    (Italics not added)
    See, I interpreted that as Sylvanas getting pissed off at the Valkyr for them trying to strike a chord with her, which resulted in Sylvanas turning around and screaming at them. I didn't interpret that as her having an emotional breakdown at the thought of the Forsaken being exterminated.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    See, I interpreted that as Sylvanas getting pissed off at the Valkyr for them trying to strike a chord with her, which resulted in Sylvanas turning around and screaming at them. I didn't interpret that as her having an emotional breakdown at the thought of the Forsaken being exterminated.
    Read the rest of that post to see her get angry at what happened to the Forsaken. It's more than just the Val'kyr pestering her.

    Sylvanas was pretty pissed and emotional when she thought the Alliance were burning the Forsaken and the thought that they were being destroyed:

    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Read the rest of that post to see her get angry at what happened to the Forsaken. It's more than just the Val'kyr pestering her.

    Sylvanas was pretty pissed and emotional when she thought the Alliance were burning the Forsaken and the thought that they were being destroyed:

    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.
    And yet, it didn't stop her from abandoning them. She still stormed off into the void, leaving them to their fate.

    Her anger there could also be taken another way. Sylvanas had always taken pride in her "warrior's heart," so her seething in that sequence could very well be coming from her wounded pride at seeing a group that she thought she had crafted into perfect weapons reduced to shambles.

    I still interpret from that story that she only sees the Forsaken as a means to an end, and not as "her people."

  10. #510
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    See, I interpreted that as Sylvanas getting pissed off at the Valkyr for them trying to strike a chord with her, which resulted in Sylvanas turning around and screaming at them. I didn't interpret that as her having an emotional breakdown at the thought of the Forsaken being exterminated.
    I did read it like that.
    That reaction could have been copy-pasted from a psychology book about emotional overreacting.
    The rest of the text goes on in the same spirit, especially with the vision about the Forsaken.

    She just committed suicide. What do you expect her to say?
    "I love the Forsaken, the world is a beautiful place and I like bunnies!"?
    Let's take a look at the facts:
    -She just killed herself.
    -Suicidal people are heavily emotional.
    -You can't really go "everything you say can and will be used against you.." on someone in that situation.

    Everyone in his/her life has freaked out at some point and yelled that they hated people (that were actually very dear or close to them).
    Why would this be any different for someone who just killed herself because her life "lost all meaning"?

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeaBird View Post
    I always knew something was off with him in-game, but I just couldn't place it. Now I know.

    His loading screen art, on the other hand...
    real orcs have nipples.

    Because they can't be wed without a nipple ring.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2013-08-22 at 12:12 AM.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  12. #512
    Herald of the Titans TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Her story has been around as long as Arthas and Thrall. She is one of the original characters from the warcraft RTS series. Garrosh is just some little shit-spawn of Grommash.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2013-08-22 at 12:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Her story has been around as long as Arthas and Thrall. She is one of the original characters from the warcraft RTS series. Garrosh is just some little shit-spawn of Grommash.
    The ironic thing is, Garrosh has been around even back then, but he was such an unimportant character, so sidelined, people forgot all about him.
    So well ones like Thrall, Arthas, Sylvanas and Malfurion where, and are still main characters, Garrosh is just a fart on the wind.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  14. #514
    Moderator Zaelsino's Avatar
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    The same reason I used to like Shego more than Dr. Drakken.

  15. #515
    Herald of the Titans TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The ironic thing is, Garrosh has been around even back then, but he was such an unimportant character, so sidelined, people forgot all about him.
    So well ones like Thrall, Arthas, Sylvanas and Malfurion where, and are still main characters, Garrosh is just a fart on the wind.
    Really? I don't recall ever seeing Garrosh mentioned in either WC3 or TFT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.

  16. #516
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    In the square metre where i walk, Garrosh is ok, Sylvanas is pointless and expendable.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Really? I don't recall ever seeing Garrosh mentioned in either WC3 or TFT.
    Nah, Garrosh was brought in in TBC. He's been pretty prominent ever since, really.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  18. #518
    Sylvanas isn't necessarily just doing it for ehr own people. She wants the undead to have better numbers but it's to strengthen the Horde. She's loyal to at least Thrall and since he's the old warchief she's loyal to the Horde. Garrosh just turned into a paranoid, power hungry tyrant that attempted to destroy Thrall's horde.

  19. #519
    Herald of the Titans TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Nah, Garrosh was brought in in TBC. He's been pretty prominent ever since, really.
    Huh, I'd not heard of him until cata. Though I only play alliance so that might be why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Nah, Garrosh was brought in in TBC. He's been pretty prominent ever since, really.
    he was there in beyond the dark portal, when horde forces escaping the alliance came upon nagrand and found the greatmother, and a younger garroshthere, who was sick with a disease called the red pox, throwing up blood and begging to know what became of his father. The other orcs where so disgusted by how weak he was, they spat in the mag'hars faces, saying (ironicly since garrosh says it now) that they are not orcs, and left nagrand with garrosh still pining for his father.

    So yes, he has been in the lore before the events of wc3.
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