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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    He gave Cairne the option to back down, but instead Cairne accepted to battle to the death terms. Garrosh had every right to give that option. Cairne was challenging him for leadership over the Horde.
    cairne was fighting for what he thought was right. garrosh could give him 100 ways to give up, and he wouldn't take it, because he believed garrosh shouldn't lead the horde.

    in the end, he was right. his belief was fueled by wrong leads, but garrosh should never had been left as the warchief. had cairne won the duel, the terrible events in theramore, gilneas and pandaria would have never happened.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  2. #502
    Scarab Lord Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    cairne was fighting for what he thought was right. garrosh could give him 100 ways to give up, and he wouldn't take it, because he believed garrosh shouldn't lead the horde.

    in the end, he was right. his belief was fueled by wrong leads, but garrosh should never had been left as the warchief. had cairne won the duel, the terrible events in theramore, gilneas and pandaria would have never happened.
    And Garrosh was fighting for what he believed was right. Him being the leader of the Horde. Garrosh hasn't had any regrets so far because everything he's done has been "right" according to him.

    For the most part, I hate Garrosh and almost everything he's done, but that was the one event where I back up Garrosh. You don't just turn against your king and try to usurp his throne and expect everything to be peachy. Sure, he went a bit far, but Cairne brought that on himself by accepting those terms.

    Do you really think Cairne wouldn't have killed Garrosh if he had the opportunity during their duel to the death? By killing Garrosh, he would be able to ensure peace so of course he would have, otherwise he wouldn't have accepted.

  3. #503
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    he was there in beyond the dark portal, when horde forces escaping the alliance came upon nagrand and found the greatmother, and a younger garroshthere, who was sick with a disease called the red pox, throwing up blood and begging to know what became of his father. The other orcs where so disgusted by how weak he was, they spat in the mag'hars faces, saying (ironicly since garrosh says it now) that they are not orcs, and left nagrand with garrosh still pining for his father.

    So yes, he has been in the lore before the events of wc3.
    That book was released on 2008 June 24, after TBC was released... We're talking buildup of characters. Garrosh being retconned into the lore after the fact doesn't count as him being there for longer than the characters in WC3 who were introduced 6 years earlier. Garrosh wasn't even mentioned in Rise of the Horde (2006) and that novel was all about the orcs during their corruption with lots of appearances from Grom.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-22 at 06:13 PM.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    And Garrosh was fighting for what he believed was right. Him being the leader of the Horde. Garrosh hasn't had any regrets so far because everything he's done has been "right" according to him.

    For the most part, I hate Garrosh and almost everything he's done, but that was the one event where I back up Garrosh. You don't just turn against your king and try to usurp his throne and expect everything to be peachy. Sure, he went a bit far, but Cairne brought that on himself by accepting those terms.

    Do you really think Cairne wouldn't have killed Garrosh if he had the opportunity during their duel to the death? By killing Garrosh, he would be able to ensure peace so of course he would have, otherwise he wouldn't have accepted.
    Absolutely not. If you read The Shattering it is because he believed Garrosh to be involved with the slaughter of some of his people. Also, Cairne was WRECKING Garrosh in that fight until the point where he got nicked. If Garrosh hadn't have been belligerent in the first place the miscommunication would've never happened and they both would've realized it was the Grimtotem. Cairne didn't do anything wrong. Still find it funny that Garrosh got his ass handed to him by a 100 year old tauren.

  5. #505
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    After Wrath and Cataclysm though I really just expected them to push a storyline with her doing essentially what Garrosh is doing, growing wildly unstable and becoming a threat to everyone. Garrosh may be the leader of the Horde, but at this point it's really just the orcs like Sylvanas and the undead.
    She is becoming a threat to everyone but she is doing it much more slowly; concentrating her efforts around lordaeron. She is just not as bombastic as Garrosh, and does not draw attention to the atrocities she commits.

    it's clever and insidious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    i hate to be the one to invoke Godwin's Law, but if Garrosh is like Hitler (bombastic, overreaching, committing bald-face atrocities) then Sylvanas is like Stalin (inexorable, evasive, playing multiple sides, obfuscatory)

  6. #506
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    She is just not as bombastic as Garrosh, and does not draw attention to the atrocities she commits.
    Nah I think it's just the Alliance being portrayed as dumb again. She has in no way been subtle about her usage of the Plague or the Val'kyr. In fact she's been the total opposite and has been using them as the vanguard and used as a shock and awe tactic. She has been using both whenever she can and in every engagement she can.

    I guess it's just cause Garrosh is Warchief and Sylvanas isn't. I guess the real test of all of this will be what happens to her after 5.4.

  7. #507
    Scarab Lord Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Absolutely not. If you read The Shattering it is because he believed Garrosh to be involved with the slaughter of some of his people. Also, Cairne was WRECKING Garrosh in that fight until the point where he got nicked. If Garrosh hadn't have been belligerent in the first place the miscommunication would've never happened and they both would've realized it was the Grimtotem. Cairne didn't do anything wrong. Still find it funny that Garrosh got his ass handed to him by a 100 year old tauren.
    Oh, I know that Cairne was getting the upperhand. But I'm saying that Garrosh wasn't necessarily in the wrong.

    Imagine that you're the king and one of your council members steps up to try to take your spot. That alone is punishable by death, but you tell him that if he wanted it bad enough, that you would duel him to the death. Now imagine your council member accepting those terms. You killing him wouldn't be wrong. For all you know, he will kill you if given the chance. I think the main issue lies with that people compare him to Thrall who was a carebear in comparison.

    What's wrong is completely subjective. Cairne had his reasons for accepting the duel to the death and Garrosh had his.

  8. #508
    Most of the WoW players are guys ... that's why. But to be fair if Sylvanas was in Garrosh position the expansion would be much more interesting. Nobody gives a fuck about Garrosh.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  9. #509
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    cairne was fighting for what he thought was right. garrosh could give him 100 ways to give up, and he wouldn't take it, because he believed garrosh shouldn't lead the horde.

    in the end, he was right. his belief was fueled by wrong leads, but garrosh should never had been left as the warchief. had cairne won the duel, the terrible events in theramore, gilneas and pandaria would have never happened.
    I don't think you get why Cairne's death was Tragic, and still plays into the Story now, Garrosh had plenty of disagreements with Cairne, even coming back home from Northrend, but he respected Cairne, he thought Cairne's ideaology might be a little outdated, but he listened, because Cairne and the Tauren gave it their all when it came to supporting the Horde. Unlike Lor'themar who was basically Blackmailed into sending forces to Northrend, Vol'jin, who was to preoccupied with retaking the Echo Isles during the Scourgewar, and Sylvanas, who couldn't keep a leash on her own people. Cairne had none of those flaws, he might be a little too soft for Garrosh's taste, but overall he was still respected. Cairne was chosen by Thrall to be one of Garrosh's advisors, and quite honestly, was pretty much the ONLY advisor that Garrosh would actually listen to, but what did he do? He hears of an attack on the Night Elves and blames Garrosh, (Which doesn't make sense honestly, Garrosh himself says that if he attacked the Night Elves, he would shout it from the rooftops, that statement being true, and the issue of Twilight Cultists in Orgrimmar should've been enough to trigger alarm from Cairne.) Not only does he blame Garrosh, but he accuses him of Cowardice, strikes him across the face, makes a comment about his father, he basically hits every nerve there was to hit with Garrosh. Cairne failed in his duty, he didn't guide Garrosh, he only served to fuel Garrosh's ego, and surrender the only meaningful voice of opposition to Hellscream.

  10. #510
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Nah I think it's just the Alliance being portrayed as dumb again. She has in no way been subtle about her usage of the Plague or the Val'kyr. In fact she's been the total opposite and has been using them as the vanguard and used as a shock and awe tactic. She has been using both whenever she can and in every engagement she can.

    I guess it's just cause Garrosh is Warchief and Sylvanas isn't. I guess the real test of all of this will be what happens to her after 5.4.
    Methods aside, Sylvanas is much more limited in her scope. She's only attacking the areas directly around her and only Lordaeron/unaffiliated territories unless directly ordered (Gilneas). Garrosh was going full derp conquest mode all over the planet.

  11. #511
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    If Garrosh hadn't have been belligerent in the first place the miscommunication would've never happened and they both would've realized it was the Grimtotem.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    read The Shattering.
    Obviously you need to, Cairne started the argument, and was hostile 100% of the way.

    Also you should consider taking the time to actually:

    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    read The Shattering.
    it was the Twilight's Hammer not the Grimtotem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Also, Cairne was WRECKING Garrosh in that fight until the point where he got nicked.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Still find it funny that Garrosh got his ass handed to him by a 100 year old tauren.
    I ask you again to:
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    read The Shattering.
    Cairne got a few blows by taking advantage of Hellscream's overly offensive fighting style, but the Blow that nicked his chest also shattered his runespear only leaving him a the tip to wield, much like a dagger. Garrosh may have been tired at that point, but you can't parry a two handed axe with the tip of a spear, that you're holding in your hand.

  12. #512
    So what you're saying wildberry is that, garrosh pvp'd on a pvp server?

  13. #513
    Deleted
    Aside from the "durrhurr sylvanas boobs" comments, shes a captivating character, shes depicted as cold, unforgiving, but an ever lasting turmoil embedded from the knowledge of her past life, way calmer, way subtle with her actions. more focus is placed on her background and character development

    Garrosh on the other hand, replaced Thrall (back when he was beloved), instantly solidifying himself as the Scrappy Doo of WoW, any redeeming part of his character like in Stonetalon, was quickly negated by a stupid warmongering move, or his "ME EVIL ME TAKE OVER THE WORLD" attitude in MoP

  14. #514
    I liked Sylvanas because she's one of the most interesting of the race leaders. I liked her back story and that cold-hearted calmness. I don't like where Blizzard taking her or what they did Garrosh. Garrosh had potential to be like his father, becoming a hero to the Horde, but Blizzard made him into a ass that I will enjoy killing XD Sylvanas may be going down that same route as well though. They just dumped Garrosh as the new warchief then have him seem like a jerk so we can kill him.

  15. #515
    Warchief Tydrane's Avatar
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    Well, if I was a braying retard like half the people in this thread, I might say something like "lol boobs!"

    I think a large part of it has to do with how much of Sylvanas' characterisation happened pre-WoW. WC1-2-3 characters have been treated with more reverence than those that came after. Garrosh was never given the chance to be good, because he was mis-handled by inept writers. The only reason players are about to kill him is because Blizzard finally relented in their multiple-expansion campaign to try to tell players "No, you really do like Garrosh! You're just too stupid to realise it!"

    Sylvanas is cool. I think part of her appeal for a lot of people is that others hate her so much. Personally, I like the kind of camp, villainous nature of all her appearances. She reminds me of a lot of characters I remember from when I was growing up, like the Wicked Witch of the West or Dick Dastardly.

    Garrosh is just a reminder of what happens when you put a writer with even less literary panache than Knaak in charge of the development of a major character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Didn't help that he had Sky Admiral Warcrimes McEvillaugh flying his airship for him.
    hi im tydrane from dranasuss

  16. #516
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    Well, if I was a braying retard like half the people in this thread, I might say something like "lol boobs!"

    I think a large part of it has to do with how much of Sylvanas' characterisation happened pre-WoW. WC1-2-3 characters have been treated with more reverence than those that came after. Garrosh was never given the chance to be good, because he was mis-handled by inept writers. The only reason players are about to kill him is because Blizzard finally relented in their multiple-expansion campaign to try to tell players "No, you really do like Garrosh! You're just too stupid to realise it!"

    Sylvanas is cool. I think part of her appeal for a lot of people is that others hate her so much. Personally, I like the kind of camp, villainous nature of all her appearances. She reminds me of a lot of characters I remember from when I was growing up, like the Wicked Witch of the West or Dick Dastardly.

    Garrosh is just a reminder of what happens when you put a writer with even less literary panache than Knaak in charge of the development of a major character.
    Great post

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    Garrosh is just a reminder of what happens when you put a writer with even less literary panache than Knaak in charge of the development of a major character.
    I wanted to shove Garrosh's worthless face into that bonfire he was crying into since the first time I met him. My only reaction to the end of his quest line was "Thrall, you are wasting your time on THIS worthless piece of trash?"

    I like Sylvanas because she is distinctly NOT a lapdog. She has her own motivations, goals and desires separate from what the Warchief wants, causing interesting bits of friction and story to arise. My appreciation of this has only increased as Varian teaches the other Alliance faction leaders to roll over and fetch the paper.

  18. #518
    The Patient sasslefrassed's Avatar
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    In my opinion it is because Sylvanas' motives have been pretty clear from the get-go. She has never felt any true allegiance to the Horde, it is an alliance of convenience on both sides, and doesn't really harm anyone within the Horde. Garrosh's actions (until now) have been kept secret, and his intentions disrupt the rest of the Horde.
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  19. #519
    garrosh is horrible written, and well a simple brute; boring and unimaginative, not mention we are saturated with "bad cause he's corrupted" story arc, Sylvanas while not exactly be forefront for the story, is far more deep of a character and a general bad ass.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Thread got killed right away.
    this 10 letters

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