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  1. #1

    Thoughts on Blizz "The Man" vs players "The Downtrodden"

    So I'm a bit baffled by the tweets on the front page by GC:
    Dear WoW community, the pitchfork and torches strategy has never been an effective one for fomenting class change. I've been doing this long enough (15 years!) to know that players love the revolution narrative:
    The downtrodden unite into a resistance movement that rises up against The Man and gets much needed change for their neglected characters. It's a charming story and probably reassuring when the developers in truth have almost all the decision making power.
    I understand if there's a small sect that have unreasonable demands and empty threats. But it sounds like he's calling out the player base when we rail against "The Man." Essentially saying when large quantities of players rise up and complain, shit doesn't get done? That's about the only time things do change.

    I don't get this preachy, tough guy facade. The community knows when they complain, things change. It's happened many times since WoW's inception and will continue to work. Yet he sarcastically references player's dissent as "the downtrodden" as if we pity ourselves for bad or unfair game mechanics.

    Speaking specifically of class changes, it wasn't the players fault at the start of MoP that pvp hunters were waaaay broken, that Mage/Lock pve numbers were silly, or that rogues needed a buff. There were complaints and changes were made (not completely fixed but better at least).
    how about unsubbing? Is that effective?
    Out of protest? I don't think so. Too hard for that message to get through.
    I love this quote too since not too long ago we had the infamous hard heroics in Cata, which GC publicly endorsed. Complaints were made and Blizz stuck to their guns. Subs dropped and Blizz caved in immediately; making a massive amount of changes. Sounds more like the developers getting the final say in WoW is a farce.

    I know GC gets a lot of shit and I appreciate his candor with players, but this is just factually not true. Blizz gives in A LOT to the player base so I'm not sure what he's talking about. He says he's been in the business 15 years then he should know better than to flat out patronize his customers like this.

    What are your guys thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  2. #2
    I am happy as hell that he put his foot down to the whiners. He is EXACTLY right in what he said. look at all the posts on here...IF THEY DONT DO THIS I WILL UNSUBSCRIBE!! stand up against blizzard and dont buy transmog helms and unsubscribe out of morality....give me a break...its THEIR game not yours.


    TWO THUMBS UP TO GC!!!!!

  3. #3
    Old God Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    What are your guys thoughts?
    That I don't like or dislike the guy, but it sound like this particular set of responses is being and will continue to be taken a bit out of context. I do believe he's referring specifically to class changes equating to: "My class sucks, buff me" and then saying they will unsub because they aren't powerful enough.


    I don't generally think he means if the majority of their players are unhappy with a feature that they will never listen. Obviously something that drastic will be gone back on, like those dungeons.
    BAD WOLF

  4. #4
    this is what he means:

    mass revolution will not work. the majority of the players wouldn't be good designers. they'd just destroy the game's longevity for short term joy.

    unsubbing will not work. more players have unsubbed already than we have as players currently. blizz has no ways to know if you unsubbed because warriors are "bad" or if it was because hunters are "bad" or if it was because you've been playing for 8 years and you're sick and tired of it. if everyone that quits was to write a post explaining why they're quitting, it would be far too much for anyone to read.

    what works: giving feedback that's testable, verifiable, agreeable and doable about your issue.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Wildberry's Avatar
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    My thoughts on Ghostcrawler are this: I don't agree with every change that he makes (Although it's not just him to be fair) but I do like his attitude towards the player base, and honestly, I'd like to see him get more aggressive, it might not be the best business idea, but the majority of WoW players are entitled, bitchy, cunts and act that way, so it would be amusing to see them get a slap of reality. Also just because you pay for a game doesn't mean you should have a say in how it runs. If you don't like it, quit, don't ask for it to be changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
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    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?
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    Wildberry as always delivers.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    So I'm a bit baffled by the tweets on the front page by GC:
    Ok, let me help you understand then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    The community knows when they complain, things change.

    It's happened many times since WoW's inception and will continue to work.
    Wrong. Things change when they need to change, not when people are whining since most whining is just subjective crying about WoL rankings that can't be substantiated with any objective data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I love this quote too since not too long ago we had the infamous hard heroics in Cata, which GC publicly endorsed. Complaints were made and Blizz stuck to their guns. Subs dropped and Blizz caved in immediately; making a massive amount of changes.
    Or maybe the instances were nerfed because statistics showed people weren't just whining out of habit like they do all the time, and the instance clearance rate actually was too low. Constant badgering of players for all irrelevant shit makes it harder to spot actually relevant problems faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    He says he's been in the business 15 years then he should know better than to flat out patronize his customers like this.
    When customers act like spoiled brats, patronizing is quite appropriate response.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #7
    Not really very swayed or interested in what Ghostcrawler has to say, even if he's not entirely wrong. The power of the customer and 'voting with your wallet' are fictional concepts in mass markets. Mass advertising and hype-marketing is a million times more powerful than customers' ability to realize there is something wrong or even malicious about the product they keep spending their money on.

    For everyone person that decides to quit they tend to manage to throw out yet another advertisement or promotional activity (tweet posts, blogposts, patch announcements) that convinces 10 others to resubscribe, even if it's one of the shallowest and most hollow games in the history of PC gaming.

    But what are you going to do? The masses are majorly retarded, most peole that read my post will be too dense to even understand or have a basic educated foundation regarding the subject I'm talking about. The best you can do is admire Blizzard for their artful balancing of PR and publicity to get so many people throwing their money at them for subpar games. Blizzard used to be about top-notch quality, nowadays it's about effective marketing.
    Last edited by Anarch the Conqueror; 2013-08-23 at 06:04 PM.
    Maddest of them all.

  8. #8
    I mostly don't care about the gameplay issues regarding classes because I've never seen anything hugely wrong with it. you can't make all classes equal because one class will always end up being OP because of something. and that kinda adds to the fun of the game if you ask me, the fact that every class will have an -up- and a -down- moment.

    I don't agree with everything GC does but I do believe that there are people that want their demands met with no regard of the consequences it'll have.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I love this quote too since not too long ago we had the infamous hard heroics in Cata, which GC publicly endorsed. Complaints were made and Blizz stuck to their guns. Subs dropped and Blizz caved in immediately; making a massive amount of changes. Sounds more like the developers getting the final say in WoW is a farce.
    While this is quite true, and an excellent example of changes made due to mass unsubbing, GC was specifically referring to class changes in his tweets. That incident affected a considerable majority of players, and therefore saw a greater negative reaction; class changes affect a minority in comparison, and therefore the "pitchfork and torches strategy" won't work for that, as GC said.

    Although GC is correct in what he said, I do agree that his tone was extraordinarily patronizing. Probably not the best move if he's really trying to get players to stop trying to "rebel" for class changes. If anything, he's feeding the trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    My thoughts on Ghostcrawler are this: I don't agree with every change that he makes (Although it's not just him to be fair) but I do like his attitude towards the player base, and honestly, I'd like to see him get more aggressive
    I have to disagree with you there. Getting more aggressive with the whiny player base will only make them bitch louder about how they're "mistreated" by Blizz, how they're paying customers, blah blah blah. The only real way to get them to stop is to ignore them. Let them complain if they want, but any reaction (positive or negative) just gives them incentive to bitch more.
    Last edited by speehs; 2013-08-23 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    When customers act like spoiled brats, patronizing is quite appropriate response.
    Dealing with customers should be different than lecturing a child... Usually

    Quote Originally Posted by speehs View Post
    I do agree that his tone was extraordinarily patronizing. Probably not the best move if he's really trying to get players to stop trying to "rebel" for class changes. If anything, he's feeding the trolls.
    This was more my point. Don't fight fire with fire. Instead I would have said something like, "I'm more willing to read polite and well thought out posts/tweets than purposefully inflammatory ones."

    To clarify, I'm not one who complains to Blizz to nerf content or buff my class. I just hate the PR handling of these tweets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Dealing with customers should be different than lecturing a child... Usually
    The difference is that GC is not a PR person or customer support or sales representative. He's one of the guys who's actually making the game.

    If people want to give feedback about the game's systems directly to developers instead of some call center outsourced to India, they need to accept the fact that the bar is higher with the feedback they leave.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    The difference is that GC is not a PR person or customer support or sales representative. He's one of the guys who's actually making the game.
    That's not a good excuse. He's a representative of Blizzard and maybe their most prominent one. Just because he's not working directly for PR doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants in public and it won't reflect on the company.

    I think GC overall does a serviceable job. But the specific tweets I highlighted above were a poor choice. They're demeaning and contradictory imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    That's not a good excuse. He's a representative of Blizzard and maybe their most prominent one. Just because he's not working directly for PR doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants in public and it won't reflect on the company.
    His response was fine. People need to stop being so sensitive.

    I think GC overall does a serviceable job. But the specific tweets I highlighted above were a poor choice. They're demeaning and contradictory imo.
    The cold hard truth hurts sometimes.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  14. #14
    there is absolutely nothing wrong in his responses on twitter. everything he said is true and maybe people need to hear it from blizzard themselves and/or from GC to understand that they wont cave to any self help class revolution. Basically he is saying, come at me in force and it wont matter. I love his tone in it and he should have done it sooner.

  15. #15
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    what works: giving feedback that's testable, verifiable, agreeable and doable about your issue.
    This bears repeating since most feedback is either outright whining (e.g. "I can't 1v1 a rogue. blizz buff [my class]!!"), nostalgia/rose-tinted spectacles (e.g. "Bring back TBC style heroics they were the best"), bashing one or more people (e.g. "Stupid GC always buffing magez" or "Just remove LFR, dirty casuals don't deserve to have gear that looks kind of like mine"). It's very rare to give actual useful and testable feedback that can reasonably be done.

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  16. #16
    I think the problem is when the players do the math and prove something is broken or during beta call something out as broken and it goes live anyway. It makes Blizzard look stupid for not looking it over and fixing it in beta. I remember the outcry during Wrath beta about ret pallys being way strong damage wise and nothing was done by the developer until after the patch released. It's been the same for this patch cycle. The same arrogant developers also claimed that Unholy was fine throughout Mists beta when it turns out that it was terrible and clunky to play. They didn't fix it until 5.2.

    Hunters have done the math and it's been shown through testing that they're near bottom of the barrel. Blizzard has ignored even positive criticism and critique on what could be done to improve the class by saying class is fine. I'd get angry at the developers too if I did the math behind my class's damage and it came out low and when I went to make a good suggestion, it was ignored.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer foxHeart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    there is absolutely nothing wrong in his responses on twitter. everything he said is true and maybe people need to hear it from blizzard themselves and/or from GC to understand that they wont cave to any self help class revolution. Basically he is saying, come at me in force and it wont matter. I love his tone in it and he should have done it sooner.
    It sounded a whole Hell of a lot like, "Hey, we'll fuck up your classes and there's nothing you can do about it because we're in control. Umad?"

    And also, to say that WoW doesn't pander...how many times has Blizzard said, "well, we heard a lot of players didn't like X, so we changed it to Y." Countless times. But if he likes to go on a power trip and say how their decisions are completely independent of player feedback, well, he's just reinforcing the traits that people dislike him for. Mainly that he's a cocky ass.
    Last edited by foxHeart; 2013-08-23 at 07:37 PM.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by foxHeart View Post
    It sounded a whole Hell of a lot like, "Hey, we'll fuck up your classes and there's nothing you can do about it because we're in control. Umad?"
    no its because people dont look at the whole picture....they only look at certain aspects. Blizzard has to look at it (due to current design) from BOTH a pve and pvp balance but most of the people are only looking at it from PVE OR PVP....it simply doesnt work like that. I am a holy pally....so dont think i havent felt the nerf hammer lately but you couldnt pay me to do GC's job with over 7.5 million bitching and moaning over every slight thing changed.

  19. #19
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    this is what he means:

    mass revolution will not work.
    No one seems to remember Dragonwrath. My friend (Sasorass on US-Suramar) was the OP of a 4(?) post-capped threads and got them to revert the nerf they had in place for drops on the legendary items for it.

    No one also seems to remember the backlash of Warlocks when they nerfed KJC in 5.2's original PTR, that they INSTANTLY reverted in week one.

    Mass revolution won't work? Bullshit, I say.

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    No one seems to remember Dragonwrath. My friend (Sasorass on US-Suramar) was the OP of a 4(?) post-capped threads and got them to revert the nerf they had in place for drops on the legendary items for it.

    No one also seems to remember the backlash of Warlocks when they nerfed KJC in 5.2's original PTR, that they INSTANTLY reverted in week one.

    Mass revolution won't work? Bullshit, I say.
    the mass revolution had nothing to do with those cases. it was a case of testable, verifiable, agreeable and doable feedback, as I said.

    try mass revolutionizing for something stupid like a pink fire questline for mages or reverting stampede arena nerfs and see if it works.

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