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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Yeah but dks aren't pure classes and their finisher is way stronger than ours and even faster. We also still suffer from the switching syndrome. Whenever there is a boss that require constant switching to adds we suffer sooo much. Example, this tier content will be Horridon heroic...as a ret or enha shaman the best thing to do if you wanna do a decent dps/dmg is to be full time 100% on boss and not switching to adds at all.
    Not sure what you're talking about. I've been #1 dps on horridon in our raid the past few weeks and I still use HA and cleave adds. Mastery is my top damage, and then DS, and I scumbag less on the boss than some of our raiders. Wish I could link the log, but it's private. Damage breakdown was 64% boss, and ~8-4% per big add.

    Also, I said sans dks. But hero class, blah blah.
    Last edited by Revvo; 2013-08-19 at 05:48 AM.

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  2. #22
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    We're also a hybrid class, whereas those are pure dps classes, sans dks.
    This is a very weak argument and I have never understood it. We are not a hybrid class and have not been for some time. When was the last time you were asked in a raid to stop dps and do a bit of healing? When did a tank die without any BRs up and you were told to take over tanking the boss? Just because we have a spec and access to gear that allows us to tank and heal doesn't mean we can do it in retribution mode. As retribution in a raid, we are there as dps and should put out the same as any other dps.

    Not that I'm arguing for any major buffs or anything. I have only two gripes with the retribution class and neither has anything to do with the abilities we have and how they work.
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  3. #23
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Not sure what you're talking about. I've been #1 dps on horridon in our raid the past few weeks and I still use HA and cleave adds. Mastery is my top damage, and then DS, and I scumbag less on the boss than some of our raiders. Wish I could link the log, but it's private. Damage breakdown was 64% boss, and ~8-4% per big add.

    Also, I said sans dks. But hero class, blah blah.
    Oh well maybe you are right but what I'm trying to say that we suffer too much from adds switching because of our seal of truth works (Seal of justice is even weaker and not that good idea using it in pve)

    Another problem which hopefully next patch will be fixed with the 3 mins cd reduce of guardian that how we are so dependable on major cds to do very well. It's like without guardian 5 mins cd it's still not good enough dps/dmg.

    Oh well hopefully next patch with the inquisition duration change + 3 mins cd on guardian will make things much better for us...I still loath about TV lackluster dmg though.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    This is a very weak argument and I have never understood it. We are not a hybrid class and have not been for some time. When was the last time you were asked in a raid to stop dps and do a bit of healing? When did a tank die without any BRs up and you were told to take over tanking the boss? Just because we have a spec and access to gear that allows us to tank and heal doesn't mean we can do it in retribution mode. As retribution in a raid, we are there as dps and should put out the same as any other dps.

    Not that I'm arguing for any major buffs or anything. I have only two gripes with the retribution class and neither has anything to do with the abilities we have and how they work.
    I healed all the time on heroic lei shen progression. WoGing/FoLing people that are low on your platform, and especially during the last phase can be the difference between a wipe and a kill.

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  5. #25
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I healed all the time on heroic lei shen progression. WoGing/FoLing people that are low on your platform, and especially during the last phase can be the difference between a wipe and a kill.
    I would argue that that isn't healing, it's utility. Pure dps classes have that too and it saves lives, but nobody would suggest they should be lower on damage because of it. End of the day, if healers start dying, you can't just take over their healing duties.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    I would argue that that isn't healing, it's utility. Pure dps classes have that too and it saves lives, but nobody would suggest they should be lower on damage because of it. End of the day, if healers start dying, you can't just take over their healing duties.
    Heart of the Wild would like to have a word. Either way, the fact that we have the ability TO heal other people makes us a hybrid by default. If not for PvE, then for PvP, our ability to be a hybrid is a fairly big deal.

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  7. #27
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Heart of the Wild would like to have a word. Either way, the fact that we have the ability TO heal other people makes us a hybrid by default. If not for PvE, then for PvP, our ability to be a hybrid is a fairly big deal.
    Not sure how a druid ability demonstrates why our damage should be lower, think I missed something there. You also get pure dps classes with self healing/absorbs for pvp purposes. The bottom line is that there are good (top even) 25-man guilds without a retribution paladin at all and it is quite rare to have more than one. Your own guild I'm sure is very positive about them because they have you. At my own level, guilds I've been in have been quite happy with me. The guild I'm currently with weren't even after a retribution paladin when I applied and had been chugging through the latter part of T15 at least without one. Since I turned ret partway through TBC, I have only raided alongside another retribution for one tier.
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  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Heart of the Wild would like to have a word. Either way, the fact that we have the ability TO heal other people makes us a hybrid by default. If not for PvE, then for PvP, our ability to be a hybrid is a fairly big deal.
    I agree on that part so many times when our healer died in the transition of Lei shen hc our grp was without a healer because he/she was dead so I manage to off heal a little bit just to stay alive for few seconds until another healer came in and helped us.

    My only concern that our build up holy power to unleash our finisher TV which suppose to be scary because we are building it up then boooom ! you got what I mean? it should be awesome finisher but instead it's too weak at the moment.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    I agree on that part so many times when our healer died in the transition of Lei shen hc our grp was without a healer because he/she was dead so I manage to off heal a little bit just to stay alive for few seconds until another healer came in and helped us.

    My only concern that our build up holy power to unleash our finisher TV which suppose to be scary because we are building it up then boooom ! you got what I mean? it should be awesome finisher but instead it's too weak at the moment.
    TV has always hit like a wet noodle, but it's partially because of the fact that our mastery builds off initial hits. So if you have huge TVs, you get huge mastery procs, and damage gets out of control fast. I agreee that I really like Holy TV, but eh. They've baked so many old teir sets into our class, it'll be nice to have a change.

    @Thete
    I cited HoTW because druids are hybrid classes that can heal pretty well with a CD.(even without Feral and boomkins can heal for quite a bit) Their damage isn't necessarily lower, but they're a hybrid that can hold their own healing wise. Also, our GM hates ret paladins. He's pretty convinced they're useless. But I get brought because I hold my own in damage, use my class utility, and don't die to stupid shit. /shrug

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhuge View Post
    I almost wonder if they'll revisit that old Seal of Justice design - and a Holy TV seems like a decent way of doing it. Take the same 5 stack mechanic that it had before and tie it into converting TV into Holy damage - so it would look like this:

    • 1 stack: 20% Holy, 80% physical
    • 2 stacks: 40% Holy, 60% Physical
    • 3 stacks: 60% Holy, 40% physical
    • 4 stacks: 80% Holy, 20% physical
    • 5 stacks: 100% Holy

    Right now it's still a boring slow and with the new Glyph of BoG, it doesn't feel like it's going to get any use.
    The ONLY problem i see with this is that Paladins would use 1 HP on casters all the time since their armor is low and use as many HP as possible against plate and maybe even mail users

  11. #31
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Also, our GM hates ret paladins. He's pretty convinced they're useless. But I get brought because I hold my own in damage, use my class utility, and don't die to stupid shit. /shrug
    Sort of my point really. You hold your place because of your superior abilities. It's as if to get that place in a competitive guild you need to be better than the average player. Now I'm not arguing for some mindless buffs; I often think people who scream for buffs are just those who can't compete in their own raid group but won't look to themselves for ways to improve. However, Retribution Paladins are certainly the red-headed stepchild of PvE and I do think something should be done.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    Sort of my point really. You hold your place because of your superior abilities. It's as if to get that place in a competitive guild you need to be better than the average player. Now I'm not arguing for some mindless buffs; I often think people who scream for buffs are just those who can't compete in their own raid group but won't look to themselves for ways to improve. However, Retribution Paladins are certainly the red-headed stepchild of PvE and I do think something should be done.
    Idk. I personally feel like we're in a pretty good spot right now.

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  13. #33
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    I have to agree with Revvo in that we are in a pretty good spot now compared to earlier patches. At the same time, these Holy Templar's Verdicts are an absolutely awesome aspect to this tier and would hate to see it just come and go with Throne of Thunder.

    If five holy power gave us a holy Templar's Verdict, there would be no point to using it until we have five holy power. If Blizzard was to ever continue with the holy Templar's Verdict, I do not believe this would be a good way to implement it.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    I have to agree with Revvo in that we are in a pretty good spot now compared to earlier patches. At the same time, these Holy Templar's Verdicts are an absolutely awesome aspect to this tier and would hate to see it just come and go with Throne of Thunder.

    If five holy power gave us a holy Templar's Verdict, there would be no point to using it until we have five holy power. If Blizzard was to ever continue with the holy Templar's Verdict, I do not believe this would be a good way to implement it.
    I agree with you here that we are at the moment with full gears of t15 heroic set are pretty good compare to the start of MoP (which was damn so horrible for us) but I was talking about TV after we replace our awesome T15 gears with SoO gears.

  15. #35
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    If such a thing occurred, I'd like the decay of HP to not be quiet as rapid as it is when dropping out of combat. Also sounds a bit weird in the sense of not hitting TV as much.
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  16. #36
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    Why not simply ask for a buff to TV or ask for more Holy damage on TV? (Perhaps, make it always do Holy damage?)

    The 5 HP seems like an awful crappy change and roundabout way to make your real issue (your contention that Ret needs buffs) look bad. Because the actual mechanic you are suggesting (making HP effectively go back to Cataclysm era) is quite bad.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Why not simply ask for a buff to TV or ask for more Holy damage on TV? (Perhaps, make it always do Holy damage?)

    The 5 HP seems like an awful crappy change and roundabout way to make your real issue (your contention that Ret needs buffs) look bad. Because the actual mechanic you are suggesting (making HP effectively go back to Cataclysm era) is quite bad.
    The problem is if we ask for just buffing TV to be holy dmg all the time it will be kinda OP in pvp and a lot of people will complain about it in pvp for being such OP kinda like how in the past divine storm when it was first implemented in pre wotlk patch it was pure holy power and a lot of people complained about it.

  18. #38
    They should just make TV deal Holy damage, straight up. What would that be, like 30% more damage on 20% of our PvE output? I think the game can survive a 6% buff to Paladin DPS. Might actually make our PvP damage somewhat threatening outside of the two minute burst window again.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    my main concern is that our finisher TV is very weak if you compare it for example with DK Obliterate.
    Oblit: 230% weapon damage, 25% extra from diseases, 40% extra from Might of the Frozen Wastes = 230*1.25*1.4 = 403% weapon damage
    TV: 275% weapon damage, 30% from Sword of Light, plus Mastery (~40% with Might, plus Inq - we'll call it 50%, conservatively) = 275*1.3*1.5 = 536% weapon damage

    In other words: Oblit is actually weaker by a significant margin outside of Killing Machine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    My only concern that our build up holy power to unleash our finisher TV which suppose to be scary because we are building it up then boooom !
    I think you are really overestimating how exciting three globals of buildup should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    They should just make TV deal Holy damage, straight up. What would that be, like 30% more damage on 20% of our PvE output? I think the game can survive a 6% buff to Paladin DPS. Might actually make our PvP damage somewhat threatening outside of the two minute burst window again.
    A Holy TV is nearly twice as strong as a physical one, not just 30% more. An ~18% buff to total DPS, and an even larger buff to HA burst, is not a thing to just throw around lightly.
    Last edited by Meteoric; 2013-08-19 at 06:15 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Yeah but my idea is to buff templar verdict because to be honest as a finisher? it's kinda very weak (talking about the normal Templar Verdict not the holy one).
    Then they would need to nerf cs, judge, exor to compensate, and we would get more burst and less sustained. Exactly the thing ret pallys have been complaining about.

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