Problem with Mists

[Delekii]

after watching this video I know feel no shame walking away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

think about it, at the end of TBC new players still raided Kara even if they were farming badges the loot they obtained still helped them. People did gruul's/mag and SSC/TK if they couldn't do T6. When they were T6 ready they went in. Not to mention nerfs happened and things got easier as time went on. It's not like that anymore, you ding 90 and then do whatever you can to reach LFR and thats it.

How is this fun?

Here is what this video says, in a nutshell.


"Hey, you guys who never got to do anything in Vanilla because you didn't have the time/inclination, you are depriving yourselves of an experience that you never would have had anyway by doing content that you can now do!"

The "journey" he describes is neither the goal of everyone, nor fun for everyone. It is a constant theme in the complaints that wow is "dumbed down", but it is one without objective basis. I fucking hate "the journey". It was long, tedious and boring. If I wanted to play a game with a long time commitment that requires skill, I'd practice and get better at chess. Comparing WoW right now to WoW in Vanilla/BC, I have SHITLOADS more to do. Every day, I can log in and do something productive with my time. When it was kara days, I would log in once a week to do kara, knowing that I already had the gear I wanted out of there and I was never going to go on and do the harder stuff anyway at the time.

"How is this fun?"

How is the old system fun? The answer is, to different people, they aren't. However, the majority of the user base isn't in the 1% that got to do naxx original, or who would EVER have done naxx original or its counterpart today if the system hadn't changed. People call it instant gratification as if that is a curse word, but it's not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a model of game that offers both instant gratification and long term development of a character. It's great. It works.

The guy says in the video "end game raiders are a dieing breed because new players have a lack of motivators, by way of hard content. Hard content is a good thing (which he says emphatically)". He is wrong - or perhaps more accurately, he is right, but his implication is wrong. Motivation exists in two forms; whips and candy. The old method used whips. People didn't want to be there - they just had to be. Now people who are end game raiders are people who want to be end game raiders, and as a result, there are perhaps far fewer. This is because - and I can't state this emphatically enough - most people do not want to put in the commitment it takes to be a succesful endgame raider. There are very, very, VERY few endgame raiders that are succesful at pushing to the end of each tier while it is still current that don't raid something like 10-12 hours a week at a minimum, as well as overheads for consumables and reps and so forth. This is all well and good, but the vast majority of the world does not consist of people for whom this is a desirable life choice.

The problem is not "there are now less endgame raiders and this is a bad thing". The problem is that people are taking the past, putting it up as the yardstick, and measuring compared to today. In fact, the past was where people were compelled to be and do what they don't want, and now are free to do the content in a socially appropriate way for them.

PS: My god this guy has rose coloured glasses.

[Frozenbeef]

Weird, here i was thinking that i enjoyed mop so much that i have logged in every day consistently since it's launch which i didn't manage to do during vanilla,tbc,wotlk or cata 0o

The guy in the video obviously knows what i should and shouldn't enjoy so i guess i'll just join in with the crowd and whine that LFD,LFR,phasing, BGS, Arena, battle pets, pandas, scenarios, dailys, world bosses, flying mounts, land mounts, farmville, badge gear,pvp, graphics, lag, lame story or a thousand other ridiculous complaints are all ruining wow.

...seriously it's people like the guy in video with his arrogant, self centered, elitist attitude that makes me dislike raiders...i just need to keep remembering that you aren't all out to cripple every piece of enjoyment i and many others get out of the game >.<

Also i find it funny that people in the comments section are all like "wow is super easy" i bet half of them haven't even stepped foot out of a raid. Yet claim to know everything about how and why the game sucks -.-

[Deleted]

As someone who does run LFR now and used to be a raider I think this video is absolutely spot on!

May i ask, Why did you stop Raiding And choose to Run LFR?

[scabobos]

mists is amazing, three years from now nostalgia will kick in and all of you haters will realize just how much they got right with this expansion. Best yet... by far

[Phuongvi]

Problem with Mists ?

Old tier been irrelevant date from Wrath
LFR date from Cata


But yes, raiding is been irrelevant since Mist and the popularity of LFR
Wait until Flex raiding,

[Deleted]

after watching this video I know feel no shame walking away.
think about it, at the end of TBC new players still raided Kara even if they were farming badges the loot they obtained still helped them. People did gruul's/mag and SSC/TK if they couldn't do T6. When they were T6 ready they went in. Not to mention nerfs happened and things got easier as time went on. It's not like that anymore, you ding 90 and then do whatever you can to reach LFR and thats it.
How is this fun?

Let’s have a look. Back in TBC on my realm there were 8 raiding guilds at the beginning (tier 4 – and they have all raided BWL, AQ40 and Naxx!). Tier 4 was 1x 10m raid and 2x 25m raid (1-2 bosses). Both sizes required 2 tanks; 25m required further about 5-7 healers and about 14 dps. 10m required further 2-3 healers and about 5-6 dps. While the core of the raiding guild back then did karazhan closed together they left 3-5 healers and 8-9 dps out, who had to find ways to improve the gear on their own.
2 of the 8 raiding guilds quickly broke apart because they couldn’t host enough members anymore (because they got excluded from raiding karazhan and left for something else). Out of the 6 remaining guilds only _1_ guild managed to kill Kael’thas before they progressed half through Tier 6. So where is your constant and linear gear up now? The only difficulty at first in Tier 6 was – apart from having the attunement – having 10 000 health.
During progress in tier5 and 6 three other guilds have broken apart (because people quit) and they couldn’t recruit legit new members, because a) members had their raiding guilds b) members needed raiding guilds to catch up in gear progression (10 000 health was something around between t4-5) and as well in attunements (BT required to kill alar and some boss in SSC if I am correct).
Sunwell Plateau hit live. 3 active raiding guilds who were doing progress were left. And out of those 3 guilds only 1 managed to kill Kil’jaeden prenerf and preexp.
TL;DR: Back in the beginning of TBC my realm (EU-Eredar) had 8 raids (= 200 raiding slots), then t5 6 raids (= 150 raiding slots, while 1 guild alias 25 slots have cleared t5), then t6 3 raids (= 75 raiding slots), and only one raiding guild got t6.5 clear (= 25 raiding slots)
Nowadays the same realm has _16_ 10m guilds and 2 25m guilds that cleared ToT hc. Meaning: 210 raiding slots alone have cleared ToT hc. (210 <=> 25)
The same realm has _141_ 10m guilds and 19 25m guilds that are beyond ToT normal clear. This means 1885 raiding slots are progressing on current content. (1885 <=> 75)
The decline on numbers of raiders is simply only a felt number and nowhere realistic hence the video claim is false.
My point is: Blizzard has fixed the mistakes, which caused guilds/raids to break up, of the so called “golden era” of raiding in TBC by adding gear available via Valor Points and LFR. In addition progress has become smoother because ideally people don’t see the bosses / mechanics for the first time on their normal / hc mode, which might cause frustrating weeks of endless wipes.
And in addition: If you say you ding 90 and do LFR and that’s it than I feel very sorry for you. Mists of Pandaria offers shitloads of content apart from LFR to gear up (Valor via: Daily Quests, Dungeons, (HC) Scenarios, Challenge Mode Dungeons; Gear via HC Scenarios or Challenge Modes) a shitload of sidekicks to do apart from gearing up (e.g. Tillers, Pet Battles) new PvP actions (RBG) and PvP in general. IN ADDITION: you can always go normal raiding / hc raiding.
If Mists of Pandaria is anything then it is reach cap and do LFR till you die.

[The One Percent]

I agree with much of the video, but seriously, people need to stop swinging on it's nutsack. It seems to get posted as a thread topic at least once a week, even though it's old as fuck and has been discussed thoroughly before.

[Nize]

IMO, the one problem I have with Mists is directly based on my tastes and not the objective quality of the game. It's merely that I dislike the setting/theme compared to pretty much every other other expansion (yes, including Cataclysm). They've done well with what they have though.

[Nobleshield]

Not this Preach video again... that guy is just some wannabe who thinks he's pro and happens to do videos to have popularity (kinda like TotalBiscuit, only presumably a better player and not a troll). No, TBC was NOT good when you had guilds stuck in Karazhan for the entirety of the expansion. Maybe if you were one of the "elite" people (because we all know that everyone was the best of the best) it didn't affect you, but for most everyone else they were only EVER able to do Karazhan. I could only imagine the sub bleeding if the majority of raid guilds were still in T14 when T16 is out. Contrary to belief, very few people have actually "looked up to" people further advanced than them in the hopes to get to that level.

[Iskalld]

funny thing is, back then, i was fine with not seeing the content. i raided kara, gruul, maggy and had just started on SSC when the 30% nerf to all content hit. then between the nerf and wotlk launching, my guild started poking bosses in MH and BT. it wasn't until we hit 80 in wotlk that we actually went back and complete MH/BT/sunwell/SSC/TK. it was actually a lot of fun to go back to those raids and clear through them.

the problem blizz has with that, is that it means they can't spend millions on raid development if only 1% of the playerbase gets to explore them - so they needed to make raids more accessible to allow more money to be spent on developing them.

as a player i really have no problem with content being hard and coming back for it when i am a higher level. i didn't kill heroic LK until i was 85, i still haven't killed sinestra. the problem is, it's really hard for blizz to convince the people paying their wages, that it's a good strategy to cater to the 1%, as everyone will see it when the new expansion comes out.

it's like a carrot on a stick to me, always giving me something to strive for, but when i can eat that carrot, i'm not so fussed about it.

I agree with this.

When BC was out, i was a total noob. even though i started playing in vanilla. I did not raid much. But the thought that there was this whole other world within the game i was playing was appealing. It was a mystery, and that was in a weird way satisfying. It made the game feel much bigger.

And you know, i didnt care that i didnt see that content. I knew that i had to put a lot of time and effort into seeing it. I didnt have the time so it was not a bother to me. Seeing players in this amazing gear running around was awesome. It did in fact inspire me to play more and put more time in.. which is what got me into raiding.

It was an adventure. Nothing was handed to us on a silver platter. That is how i will always remember WoW.

[Servasus]

It's a good point, I was ok with being the 99% because there was always some way to progress and getting in to a raid felt like the most epic experience ever.

I wonder how long the game would have lasted under the vanilla/BC model.

/speculation

It wouldn't have. People aren't gonna continue paying for their sub when they run out of content to do.

Difference between now and then is back then NO ONE had fully maxed level characters of all types, so people could level alts if they didn't get to raid. NO ONE had capped achievement points when they were introduced in Wrath, so they could go for achievements. Now, in Mists, the game has become so old (10 years) that the majority of the players who have stuck it through don't have all the extra non-raidy bits of things to do anymore. I sure don't. Any mounts, legendaries, achievements and alts that I wanted to level or achieve have all been completed for the most part and when I do my weekly raids I log out and come back the next week.

Mists gave me the most NEW content an expansion has thus far, and because of that I was engaged in the game for at least 6 months after the original expansion release. It is a VERY good expansion filled with tons of content. Problem is, once you finish that content, if you have nothing else to achieve, you do your raids and log off. And once you finish those raids entirely and are waiting for the next patch to drop. So you just don't log in very much.

A TON of people nowadays try to cut corners where they can, and even though I don't personally find 15 dollars to be much at all, some people would treat that as 2 or 3 days of groceries. So they quit the game until new content comes out for them to complete.

It's why we ALWAYS see an increase in players when an expansion hits and a decrease in players by the final patch of that expansion. People finish the expansion content, and there is only so much raids can do for you.

Either way, if the majority of the players were the "99% that didn't get to see raids" they would simply quit. I'm not denying the whole "Prestige Factor" you speak of, but let's face it...you're being selfish. You're being that nostalgic player everyone hates, because living in the past is sad. It seemed super fun for you back then. It seemed super prestigious for you back then, but I guarantee that feeling would not last long when you are sitting in Shrine or Stormwind with 11 level 90s, a practically full achievement point tracker, and all the pets and mounts you would ever care to farm for and have absolutely NO raids you are allowed to be a part of because, let's face it, you are NOT the 1%.

Don't let your nostalgia and your supposed "prestige" ruin the game for millions of players who want to experience it. If you want prestige, go clear Heroic raids before the next tier drops and before they are nerfed. Fights nowadays are harder and more complicated than classic anyway. Only reason Ragnaros was hard was because of the insane amount of fire resistance gear you needed as well as the fact that the players were ALL still new and learning the game. Addons didn't really exist, macros were not common knowledge, and the skill level overall for every player was lower than it is today. Those fights were not harder because they were better. They were harder because of unrealistic expectations for gear for FORTY players, they were overtuned to hell, and because everyone was new.

Stop fooling yourselves. Seriously.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

...Sigh.

When you reach 90 you do the following:
1. Dailies
2. Scenarios
3. Heroic Dungeons
4. Questlines
5. Crafting

As endgame has come, there's always been an absurd jump from initial level 90 to raiding. Mists has offered more ways to get geared than past expansions.

When you're around LFR level, you can gear up via LFR (and Flex now) and then move to Normal/Heroic raiding if you'd like.

The crappy thing has always been that lul (as I said) between right when you hit 90 and want to raid.

Slight correction here. There are not more ways to get there, just more steps before you get there. Right now you have to do the normal gearing up process to run LFR, then run LFR to get gear for Normal.

I'm hoping Blizz will make the gear rewarded for these "events" that are replacing dailies the same quality as LFR drops. So you run LFR only if you want the tier from it, not for mandatory progression gear.

[Deleted]

Not this Preach video again... that guy is just some wannabe who thinks he's pro and happens to do videos to have popularity (kinda like TotalBiscuit, only presumably a better player and not a troll). No, TBC was NOT good when you had guilds stuck in Karazhan for the entirety of the expansion. Maybe if you were one of the "elite" people (because we all know that everyone was the best of the best) it didn't affect you, but for most everyone else they were only EVER able to do Karazhan. I could only imagine the sub bleeding if the majority of raid guilds were still in T14 when T16 is out. Contrary to belief, very few people have actually "looked up to" people further advanced than them in the hopes to get to that level.

Fun fact: our guild master has been raid leader since the beginning of TBC. His small guild has been stuck in Kara for months, until they decided to merge with other 2 guilds with a similar situation, and managed to go through all the raid content (they stopped during swp due to random dramas). Everytime we talk about those days he's all like:"It's unbelievable we managed to get there with the people we had in our group, most of the raiders were clueless and so bad they made me wnat to cry sometimes... Raids were not hard, the hard part was finding 2-3 players that were ok with tanking (and ONLY tanking), and equiping them hoping they were going to stay in the guild after getting the loot they needed to apply to a better one".... the "journey".

[Deleted]

Guess the video.... Yep i was right, mikepreach you dirty bastard
I msick and tired of the threads!
SHUT THE FUCK UP

[gee]

Once again, this is not the reason you are not liking the game anymore. You know the game enough to have fun with what you have, and MoP is just better than TBC in terms of raiding and game design. That's a fact.
If you seriously think that vannilla/TBC were plain better, you are being delusional... that's just nostalgia.

Telling people why they like the game? B.S.

Calling people delusional because they think game was better in previous expansions? B.S. and hateful. Why can't you accept not everyone likes what you like and go take the stick out of your...

[Nobleshield]

Fun fact: our guild master has been raid leader since the beginning of TBC. His small guild has been stuck in Kara for months, until they decided to merge with other 2 guilds with a similar situation, and managed to go through all the raid content (they stopped during swp due to random dramas). Everytime we talk about those days he's all like:"It's unbelievable we managed to get there with the people we had in our group, most of the raiders were clueless and so bad they made me wnat to cry sometimes... Raids were not hard, the hard part was finding 2-3 players that were ok with tanking (and ONLY tanking), and equiping them hoping they were going to stay in the guild after getting the loot they needed to apply to a better one".... the "journey".

Exactly... the hard part of TBC was mostly getting 25 people to do more than Kara (and later ZA), and then keeping people if you struggled in progression. I freely admit that I didn't play TBC, but Rift has a similar gating style (not with real attunements, but you need the gear from the first tier of raid to meet the requirements for the second tier) and it was terrible there without having enough people to do the 20-man raids, so I imagine it must have been similar during TBC for the majority of guilds (at least Karazhan was what, 12 bosses? In Storm Legion the first 10-man raid is FOUR bosses)

[Glorious Leader]

The problem with mists is that the design changes are all basically efficiency changes made to the game reflect economic and effeciency concerns and not fun. Forced raiding and forced "getting into the world" to make sure you do that shit(that they feel they MUST make) instead of forsaking it as so many players did in Cataclysm. It's as hollow and forced and fake as you can get.

If lfr has to go and that means raiding has to go then SO BE IT. I welcome new and fresh. Not running the same god damn raid on X number of tunes at two-three difficulty levels over and over again.

- - - Updated - - -

.

I'm hoping Blizz will make the gear rewarded for these "events" that are replacing dailies the same quality as LFR drops. So you run LFR only if you want the tier from it, not for mandatory progression gear.

Not happening. Like I agree and I think they should make it so you can get tier from it but if you could do that you would POTENTIALLY skip lfr and then well all that work in the raid went to waste and they gotta squeeze as much value out of that as they can. They don't want another cataclysm where people can and DID skip raiding in droves.

Ultimately I think that's the larger point. The game is in DESPERATE need of rejuvenation but it can't happen when the developers cling to raiding as the premier content and spend all their time and resources and efforts on that. Well Einstein said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Why keep making raids if it's not drawing anybody in?

[Deleted]

The only problem with MoP is all those elitists whining about it.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one that is extremely tired of these threads? Absolutely nothing constructive, only people playing messiah - thinking they are here to deliver some kind of absolute truth to us.

Get this in your spoiled brains: there is no such thing as 'perfect'.

[Deleted]

May i ask, Why did you stop Raiding And choose to Run LFR?

Basically didn't have the time to raid due to family/real life commitments and play the game a lot less than I used to. So obviously, I do see the benefit of LFR as it is aimed at people like me.

However, quite like the idea of delaying LFR further so it's a patch or month or two behind the normal release. Saying that, many people will hate this idea and want LFR opened as soon as it's available in normal. Either way Blizzard can't win as there will be many people on both sides of the fence.