8/19/13 Blue rogue posts

[Warstar]

It's okay - the blues came out and said the decline in the rogue class popularity was due to the introduction of the DK class, a real melee class. I threw out that laughable blue comment on ganking in open world being harder... lol of course because everyone pvp's...

But I agree with the DK comment. Why make a rogue when it seems a hunter/ feral druid make better stealther / stunners. And if you are looking for that raw melee type power from rogue... well look elsewhere - the DK will do what the rogue does and not die.

Well if you make a blood DK I guess that's true but then you're talking tank vs. melee instead of melee vs. melee which is a whole different situation. And currently DKs damage wise sim are one of the lowest simming melee classes out there and are pretty easy to beat in a dps race so whatever raw melee power you're talking about I have no idea what it is. Granted it's easier to level a dk than a rogue since rogues suck at leveling at higher level pretty bad.

[wxcopy]

Uhm, if you don't like the way rogues deal damage why did you go for a rogue to begin with?

This isn't really fair, taking a rogue (or any class) across expansions, is a gamble in itself. The devs gut,nerf,add plate spinning just to maintain baseline dps, that if you don't have alts ready, you are "stuck" with your main. At this point it isn't really going for a rogue, it's what you end up stuck with or quit.

[iyamwhatiyam]

Having played a Ret paladin in hardcore raiding for most of my WoW career and switching to my rogue alt as my main when going semi-casual, my biggest gripe (which seems to be getting WORSE since WOTLK) is how much "free" damage we get. No other class (disclaimer: that I have played) does THAT much free damage. That is what makes rogue so boring to me: I can play like a mindless dumbass, but as long as I keep up SND + rupture and stay in melee range, I'm doing 95% of my maximum potential of playing perfectly (pooling for envenoms, for example). We are over 70% damage that just... happens. How does this make any sense?

The answer is that it's easier to balance damage that's just always rolling and predictable. But they really messed up. Our passive damage (or for any class) should really never exceed 20-25%. As a result, pvp and pve doesn't feel fun as a rogue because you hit a damage button and it does minimal damage. The only thing that hurts is your poisons and sometimes envenom. Warlocks on PTR were critting for over a million... I'd be surprised to find a rogue crit much over 300k with the buffed dispatch. How is that fun?

The best solution is to remove auto attack altogether. It's outdated, boring, and not fun. Games like SW:TOR and Guild Wars 2 have handled it much better by adding in free attacks you have to hit when you can't hit other abilities.

The other gripe I have is that stealth as a mechanic is quite pointless. It only allows us to start a fight on our own terms, which is good for pvp but nearly useless in pve. I'd like to see a way (at least in PvE) for a rogue to be able to re-enter stealth often in a fight to use more of the in-stealth only abilities. Give sub the ability to keep up find weakness at all times, for example, without just adding it to another ability. Make shadow dance actually put you IN STEALTH. This would add a lot of flavor and make the whole "master of shadows" thing at least a little less of a joke.

This. Passive damage is a joke. There are too many things in the game that are passive, tbh, but doing damage shouldn't be one of them.

Your thoughts on stealth and find weakness are something I've been wanting for a while and it makes perfect sense. The easiest way to explain how stealth 'should' work (imo) is to play a trickster rogue in Neverwinter. The game is severely flawed, yes, but this is one thing they got right. Blizzard could even keep stealth the way it is if that's their vision, but they could fix a lot for Subtlety and make rogues a lot more 'rogue' by changing things like Shadow Dance. Shadow Dance is a good concept, but tweaking its' cooldown and changing garrote's energy recovery could go a long way. This could help with a couple things I can think of right away:

1) They could remove Rupture, which lowers action bar bloat, since we'd have access to garrote more often.

2) They could tweak Garrote's energy recovery accordingly with the loss of rupture.

3) Changing Shadow Dance' cooldown to a much lower one not only allows access to Garrote whenever needed, but would also help Sub's sustained damage in both pve/pvp since find weakness would be up consistently. Not saying it has to be up 100% of the time, because at that point you might as well make it passive for Sub, but it would help solve problems people have complained about for quite a while.

I don't like Assassination because it's faceroll and boring.....passive damage. I know some people agree. Why not allow us to play the spec we enjoy? Sub being good in raids might still need tweaks for backstab/ambush if they keep making encounters like Magaera, though. (don't construe that as "I want positional requirement removed from backstab/ambush, because I don't....it's not the right answer. The only answer might be to only allow backstab's positional requirement to be removed in PvE....via a glyph or otherwise. Removing it altogether dumbs down the game in PvP and I think most of us can agree that's a bad thing. It wouldn't be as fun, either, in PvP....but for PvE it might be a means to an end to allow people to play Sub more effectively.)

[Sesshou]

Honestly, I think the DK thing is mostly due to DKs being incredibly OP at wotlk launch and rogues being incredibly weak (HAT bug aside). So if you were a rogue in BC then you had to decide between (1) a new and interesting class with a mechanic like no other class that is incredibly strong or (2) staying on your rogue and being gimp. I was going to reroll DK myself for the start of wotlk, but I ended up taking a 6 month break instead.

[Kulestu]

Uhm, if you don't like the way rogues deal damage why did you go for a rogue to begin with? I don't want a GCD spam class so I like my rogue. If I wanted to spam shit every GCD I would've made a ret paladin or an arms warrior. The passive damage is boosted by proper usage of active spells so that doesn't really matter. Not having a retardedly complex rotation allows you to focus more on encounters.

I'm already hitting 300k+ dispatches on live with trinket procs and I'm not even fully geared so I don't get the complaint about our abilities not hitting hard. Warlocks were hitting 1 million with retarded trinkets that have been nerfed tenfold since then.

Either way, I really don't get these players that complain about rogues and want them to be just like other classes. Then roll one of those classes? Rogue is the only class that functions the way it does, there are no comparable specs/classes, but there are a ton of GCD spammy hard hitting classes and specs. Why do you guys want rogues to become just like that instead of just rolling those classes? I think Assassination gameplay is fine the way it is. Combat and Subtlety could use some work.

His point is that the difference in skill between the best rogue and the worst rogue is minimal. It's almost all gear, RNG and fight experience. Our rotation is so simple that the only real difference in rogue damage between fights isn't how good the rogue is at playing a rogue, it's about how well the player knows the fight, for mutli-dotting, boss up-time, etc.

[Warstar]

His point is that the difference in skill between the best rogue and the worst rogue is minimal. It's almost all gear, RNG and fight experience. Our rotation is so simple that the only real difference in rogue damage between fights isn't how good the rogue is at playing a rogue, it's about how well the player knows the fight, for mutli-dotting, boss up-time, etc.

Most "skill" comes from know fight mechanics...

Only real class out there that takes a lot of skill to play is an affliction lock with multi dot management. Other wise no class really has a difficult rotation. It's knowing the fight and knowing how to squeeze that extra damage out of it. But really saying that wow is a hard game with difficult rotations is kinda absurd.

ANd btw I guess you've never done LFR because they're are some reaaaally bad rogues out there doing less than a 10th of the top rogues dps.

[Infective]

This. Passive damage is a joke. There are too many things in the game that are passive, tbh, but doing damage shouldn't be one of them.

Your thoughts on stealth and find weakness are something I've been wanting for a while and it makes perfect sense. The easiest way to explain how stealth 'should' work (imo) is to play a trickster rogue in Neverwinter. The game is severely flawed, yes, but this is one thing they got right. Blizzard could even keep stealth the way it is if that's their vision, but they could fix a lot for Subtlety and make rogues a lot more 'rogue' by changing things like Shadow Dance. Shadow Dance is a good concept, but tweaking its' cooldown and changing garrote's energy recovery could go a long way. This could help with a couple things I can think of right away:

1) They could remove Rupture, which lowers action bar bloat, since we'd have access to garrote more often.

2) They could tweak Garrote's energy recovery accordingly with the loss of rupture.

3) Changing Shadow Dance' cooldown to a much lower one not only allows access to Garrote whenever needed, but would also help Sub's sustained damage in both pve/pvp since find weakness would be up consistently. Not saying it has to be up 100% of the time, because at that point you might as well make it passive for Sub, but it would help solve problems people have complained about for quite a while.

I don't like Assassination because it's faceroll and boring.....passive damage. I know some people agree. Why not allow us to play the spec we enjoy? Sub being good in raids might still need tweaks for backstab/ambush if they keep making encounters like Magaera, though. (don't construe that as "I want positional requirement removed from backstab/ambush, because I don't....it's not the right answer. The only answer might be to only allow backstab's positional requirement to be removed in PvE....via a glyph or otherwise. Removing it altogether dumbs down the game in PvP and I think most of us can agree that's a bad thing. It wouldn't be as fun, either, in PvP....but for PvE it might be a means to an end to allow people to play Sub more effectively.)

When you talk about wanting Shadow Dance's cooldown adjusted alongside the "energy recovery" of Garrote, I don't quite see how you're imagining those two things are related. Shadow Dance and Venomous Wounds have never and likely will never interact together. I can't tell if you're arguing Sub should have VW or Assassination should have Shadow Dance. Either way, no, we don't need specs blurring together like that. Removing Rupture also just sounds like a bad idea.

[zurm]

ANd btw I guess you've never done LFR because they're are some reaaaally bad rogues out there doing less than a 10th of the top rogues dps.

There is a difference between being bad and not caring. I've seen those rogues too; they tend to have a much lower ilvl and all they do things like forget to put poisons on as assassination or simply afk most of the fight.

[Kulestu]

Most "skill" comes from know fight mechanics...

Only real class out there that takes a lot of skill to play is an affliction lock with multi dot management. Other wise no class really has a difficult rotation. It's knowing the fight and knowing how to squeeze that extra damage out of it. But really saying that wow is a hard game with difficult rotations is kinda absurd.

ANd btw I guess you've never done LFR because they're are some reaaaally bad rogues out there doing less than a 10th of the top rogues dps.

Those rogues are typically either AFK or not pressing their moves, it's LFR. The difference between a 5/13 rogue and 13/13 rogue is typically just gear, though, when it comes to rogues.

[Deleted]

Hi, i have heard that blizzard want Rogues to wield daggers instead of swords/axes/maces whatever. So pls blizzard take back old good Combat dagger spec from vanilla, god i miss u! AR + BF + Backstab <3 !! Pls atleast think about a way to take it back somehow

[Tecnice]

Wait, rogues never die in PvE, either.

PvE is a MiniGame.

[ascari]

I feel like instead of buffing Sub, they're buffing all across, leaving sub really in the dust again...or is that just me.