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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    There are classes and specs in more need of attention than hunters.
    Go away little troll.

    Infracted - If you don't agree with someone, there are other ways to tell them you disagree.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-08-23 at 10:56 PM.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    There are classes and specs in more need of attention than hunters.
    Not sure if troll or just another person who skim-reads the topic and posts here for the first time.

    So like what then? Healers cannot be one of the biggest examples as resto shamans and resto druids are getting substantial changes in 5.4. Disc priests aren't in a dangerously low spot either, as usual.

    Almost every melee also got significant buffs, including Rogues and DK's. DPS Monks have also been looked at a lot lately, according to some of the twitter feeds. So what's left? Casters? It's safe to say they're not underperforming or are in dying need of some buffs either just from the looks of 5.3.

    For a class that isn't doing too great right now, especially as pointed out by some of the devs, it's reasonable that it gets some much needed attention in PvE.

  3. #343
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    There are classes and specs in more need of attention than hunters.
    Such as? All other classes bring something reliable to the table.

    WW Monks complain about their utility but honestly, I'd take their utility any day:
    -Best AoE stun in game by far
    -Can Soak 2 magic debuffs back-to-back(Heroic Lei Shen says hi) or just negate a lot of damage(self CDs basically)
    -Best movement in the game
    -Best taunt for clutch situations, I remember a WW Monk saving 1 Heroic Horridon kill by taunting the boss at the end and using Flying Kick to get away in 1 second.
    -AoE has no ramp up and can be literally spammed till no end.

    Mages cleared the discussion of utility by being the highest DPS every tier. Shadow Priests are good for VE, Mana Hymn and Multi-dotting(and possibly symbiosis-tranq).
    DKs already got overbuffed. Shamans already had the best off-heals of the hybrids and continue to do so with the buff to HTT being baseline and can choose AG with it for burst healing.

    What do hunters give? Traps, so good that no fight in this expansion has needed them, our MD is helpful on 1 fight this expansion(Tortos Heroic kite strat) and even then MD is very rubbish because other classes do more damage thus the extra threat is pretty much worthless.

    The core of Hunter issue is our scaling, because at Normal mode gear we do fine, but other classes get like 30-40% more DPS per point of Haste, Crit or Mastery so at Heroic gear we are so far behind. And Blizzard most of all refuses to recognize this issue, which has been around since Cataclysm launched. We have no passives that interact with Haste/Crit and our Mastery +% per point is horrible and our Masteries are just awful as a mechanic.

  4. #344
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    Survival and beast mastery are both "middle at the pack" specs. Some classes has to be there. Both fire mages and demo locks gets some nerfs. According to raidbots these are the specs that outperforms hunters the most. Rest of the specs is relatively cloose and a massive boost to hunter dps will just make them insanely overpowered and top meters by far.

    TLDR: If you exclude fire mages and demo locks(which are now getting nerfed) the need for hunter buffs are not existing. maybe a few %'s but your allrdy getting that.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    Survival and beast mastery are both "middle at the pack" specs.
    No mention of MM then? Yes, not all of us expect all of our specs to be viable which is understandable, but it's hasn't been viable at all since MOP started. I personally don't mind if it never does get the attention it needs in PvE, but my point is, at least many pure DPS classes have a strong spec to turn to when needed, especially in hard times.

    As for mages and locks getting nerfs, it hasn't just been because of their DPS. Sure enough that was one of the main reasons, but DPS isn't the only good thing these classes are good at. Lore specifically replied to a tweet that they're too good and are very stackable in any raid situation, since they can bring a lot of things to the table, coupled with their high DPS. This doesn't automatically make them the only ones that puts us to shame in both of these areas, what about everyone else?

    Also, what hunter buffs are you talking about? Have you been following the threads and the patch notes lately? Don't forget the removal of readiness, and the focus cost of arcane shot increasing by 50% for a less than 15%~ damage increase over live. This change to arcane shot isn't pleasant and even if Blizzard's intentions are to shift some our filler damage away to our signatures, it doesn't end up being compensated for atm.

    The RRPM nerfs don't play nice either and just add to the fire of somewhat offsetting the buffs to our signature abilities. The end result isn't something that comes up as a straight-up, big DPS increase, something that GC promised in his watercooler post.
    Last edited by Drakoes; 2013-08-23 at 11:35 PM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Such as? All other classes bring something reliable to the table.

    WW Monks complain about their utility but honestly, I'd take their utility any day:
    -Best AoE stun in game by far
    -Can Soak 2 magic debuffs back-to-back(Heroic Lei Shen says hi) or just negate a lot of damage(self CDs basically)
    -Best movement in the game
    -Best taunt for clutch situations, I remember a WW Monk saving 1 Heroic Horridon kill by taunting the boss at the end and using Flying Kick to get away in 1 second.
    -AoE has no ramp up and can be literally spammed till no end.

    Mages cleared the discussion of utility by being the highest DPS every tier. Shadow Priests are good for VE, Mana Hymn and Multi-dotting(and possibly symbiosis-tranq).
    DKs already got overbuffed. Shamans already had the best off-heals of the hybrids and continue to do so with the buff to HTT being baseline and can choose AG with it for burst healing.

    What do hunters give? Traps, so good that no fight in this expansion has needed them, our MD is helpful on 1 fight this expansion(Tortos Heroic kite strat) and even then MD is very rubbish because other classes do more damage thus the extra threat is pretty much worthless.

    The core of Hunter issue is our scaling, because at Normal mode gear we do fine, but other classes get like 30-40% more DPS per point of Haste, Crit or Mastery so at Heroic gear we are so far behind. And Blizzard most of all refuses to recognize this issue, which has been around since Cataclysm launched. We have no passives that interact with Haste/Crit and our Mastery +% per point is horrible and our Masteries are just awful as a mechanic.
    Could not agree more! we are not mid - we are bottom!
    Zero utility makes drop from mid to bottom.. even if damage wise we are closet to mid..

    And still - other pures dominate.. feels like we are not one of them..

  7. #347
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2qal0-Orw - Kripp Doesn't even play anymore. Knows Hunters are getting nerfed and Mages/Locks getting Buffed. GG

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    Survival and beast mastery are both "middle at the pack" specs. Some classes has to be there.
    This really cheeses me and is so ignorant. Yes, they are middle of the pack. Yes, someone has to be the lowest. But here's the thing, those sims and numbers are on tank n spank normal fights. How many tank n spank fights are there? 3? How many have target swapping, potential for multi dot, cleave, aoe, on and on. And even then, so what? It doesn't matter. The things that matter now days are what do hunters bring. If we don't bring good dps, we don't bring a buff, we don't bring utility, so what does that leave us? The only thing is that we are slightly better during the gear phase, because we get a few more pieces of mail because nobody brings hunters. And then everyone catches up.

    The problem isn't that we're low dps, it's that we're low dps on certain encounter types AND we do not bring a utility mechanic to make up for it. All we want is to be equal, and people are getting riled up because blizzard won't acknowledge or even answer the questions.

    And, this has been going on since the start of the cataclysm with the removal of ArmPen and changing of core hunter mechanics. I have stood firmly that hunters were in a bad spot since the start of cataclysm, and I was the main lobbyist behind getting hunters buffs and debuffs on pets during beta. I have seen the exact same people in this thread now, finally open up and realize hunters are in a bad spot. I have watched since the start of cataclysm hunters slowly get changes to core mechanics, which is always usually in a hot fix or mid tier patch. It's extremely upsetting, because this is a launch character I have played since day 1, November 23rd 2004 and Blizzard is slowly pushing hunters to other classes in the competitive raiding scene and probably now PvP.

    Let's just call it what it is: Blizzard can not figure out how to design hunters between PvP and PvE.

    My simple answer to part of this is to just give hunter pets a bleed with a decent cooldown (18s duration, 18s cd), that is removed when the target is above 90% health (only players) similar to the bleeds from slave pens. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=43937 Can even apply to MM or whatever.
    Last edited by Libertarian; 2013-08-24 at 10:18 AM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    This really cheeses me and is so ignorant. Yes, they are middle of the pack. Yes, someone has to be the lowest. But here's the thing, those sims and numbers are on tank n spank normal fights. How many tank n spank fights are there? 3? How many have target swapping, potential for multi dot, cleave, aoe, on and on. And even then, so what? It doesn't matter. The things that matter now days are what do hunters bring. If we don't bring good dps, we don't bring a buff, we don't bring utility, so what does that leave us? The only thing is that we are slightly better during the gear phase, because we get a few more pieces of mail because nobody brings hunters. And then everyone catches up.

    The problem isn't that we're low dps, it's that we're low dps on certain encounter types AND we do not bring a utility mechanic to make up for it. All we want is to be equal, and people are getting riled up because blizzard won't acknowledge or even answer the questions.

    And, this has been going on since the start of the cataclysm with the removal of ArmPen and changing of core hunter mechanics. I have stood firmly that hunters were in a bad spot since the start of cataclysm, and I was the main lobbyist behind getting hunters buffs and debuffs on pets during beta. I have seen the exact same people in this thread now, finally open up and realize hunters are in a bad spot. I have watched since the start of cataclysm hunters slowly get changes to core mechanics, which is always usually in a hot fix or mid tier patch. It's extremely upsetting, because this is a launch character I have played since day 1, November 23rd 2004 and Blizzard is slowly pushing hunters to other classes in the competitive raiding scene and probably now PvP.

    Let's just call it what it is: Blizzard can not figure out how to design hunters between PvP and PvE.

    My simple answer to part of this is to just give hunter pets a bleed with a decent cooldown (18s duration, 18s cd), that is removed when the target is above 90% health (only players) similar to the bleeds from slave pens. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=43937 Can even apply to MM or whatever.
    I'm sorry, but every fight is tank and spank for hunters, and that is exactly where their strength lies. So where everyone's dps will be crap because of movement, any proper hunter will continue to treat the fight like patchwerk.

    Secondly, gear advantage is slight? The gear advantage is absolutely huge. Every single patch in the a lot of guilds, it is the hunter who is decked in full bis first. And this is exactly why you won't be benched, because wasting loot is the worst thing for any progress-based guild.

    Thirdly, 'no buffs'. Are you serious? In 10man, hunter is the one absolutely mandatory class to bring exactly because of your pets. When we were a top 10man guild, even if hunters did 30k less than the rest, we'd still have one *because* of the frigging buffs. Since 10man reign supreme, I sincerely doubt the no-buff argument. Whether or not those buffs are equally useful in 25 varies, as it does with any other class.

    Fourth, 'bad spot'. While I agree hunters weren't great all expansion, as mentioned above they're still mandatory to bring and not that bad at all. They're not wotlk's shadow priests, for starters. Elemental shaman, now that's a bad spot. They are the prime vanilla example of a support class where blizzard again and again refuses to buff their single target and instead push them further and further in a niche role that demo locks can do better anyway. But that's the thing isn't it, we could argue all day about 'bad spots'. The truth of the matter is that you're fine. No, you're not going to be #1 every fight, which is just as well - nobody should.

    Look, I'm an ex-hunter, and part of the reason I dropped the class, aside from really disapproving of the energy change back at the end of TBC, was the constant feeling of.. Well, the constant issues more than anything, with pets, with mechanics, with everything, the feeling of neglect. What a waste of energy, especially since all that has tremendously improved since. My best advice would be to come with a solid set of numbers on actual real 5.4 fights, and post on the forums, and leave it at that.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by aHeeRo View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2qal0-Orw - Kripp Doesn't even play anymore. Knows Hunters are getting nerfed and Mages/Locks getting Buffed. GG
    Didn't he stop long before this patch ?

    I was expecting him to talk about "hunter problems" in that vid... but no it's completely irrelevant to the topic. He just gives the same old "wow lost it's excitement", "wow is just repeating the same old formula", speech of a thousand threads on MMO champion. Nothing specific to hunters.

  11. #351
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    ~Snip~
    A lot of guilds bring exactly 1 Hunter because they will soak all the Agi Mail gear that drops from the bosses to that it is used and not disenchanted or going to a Resto Shamans Off-spec. Losing even 1 piece of Heroic loot on progress is huge.

    10m can easily adjust to no Hunters(our 10m alt run does it often).

    This is just 9 people: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

    All buffs/debuffs covered, 3 battle resses, Bloodlust, lots of raid CDs. Only thing that is missing is a Mail Agility gear soaker.. Hmm who do we have for that? HUNTERS!

  12. #352
    I try to stay civil so as not to get scrapbotted but ignorance like this just can not be left to fester...

    I'm sorry, but every fight is tank and spank for hunters, and that is exactly where their strength lies. So where everyone's dps will be crap because of movement, any proper hunter will continue to treat the fight like patchwerk.
    Yes our strength is our movement and that is great if you are a mouth breathing chimpanzee that can not look at a timer and see when and where you are going to have to move. In the world where people can actually read and plan ahead (this would be people above 5/13 super nerfed heroics where people pretend they are good) and movement is a sum zero problem.
    There are NO fights where skilled players struggle to dps while moving... (you could say SP but on those movement fights many times there are multi dot opportunities to negate the movement.)

    Secondly, gear advantage is slight? The gear advantage is absolutely huge. Every single patch in the a lot of guilds, it is the hunter who is decked in full bis first. And this is exactly why you won't be benched, because wasting loot is the worst thing for any progress-based guild.
    Stop it, I think you read a couple pretend progressed hunters posts and are trying to speak like you are progressed, the "worst thing for any progression-based guild" is NOT progressing. They will bring a hunter to gear soak sure, but we do not need to and only do it because we know there will be a eventual patch where hunters get a AotH buff and become semi decent and it MAY happen before progression is over. That is why we bring our hunter.

    Thirdly, 'no buffs'. Are you serious? In 10man, hunter is the one absolutely mandatory class to bring exactly because of your pets. When we were a top 10man guild, even if hunters did 30k less than the rest, we'd still have one *because* of the frigging buffs. Since 10man reign supreme, I sincerely doubt the no-buff argument. Whether or not those buffs are equally useful in 25 varies, as it does with any other class.
    I know of no serious 10 man raid leader that builds around a hunters pet buffs, you pick your base 5 which cover all buffs, then you stack what you need CD wise (hunters are not included in the base 5 or the stacking buddy) to make the fight doable. Oh and it does not "vary" in a 25, hunter buffs are useless in a decent 10 and non existent in 25s and sorry bud, unused utility is not utility, try to convince someone else of your BS.
    Fourth, 'bad spot'. While I agree hunters weren't great all expansion, as mentioned above they're still mandatory to bring and not that bad at all.
    ROFLAMO... oh god please make him stop... you just went so ridiculous no one can take you serious now.

    They're not wotlk's shadow priests, for starters. Elemental shaman, now that's a bad spot.
    I give a shit less where SP were 2 expacs ago or where Ele is right now, this is a hunter board and we are concerned with hunters, not how well we stack up now to a class back 12 patches ago...

    The truth of the matter is that you're fine. No, you're not going to be #1 every fight, which is just as well - nobody should.
    The truth of the matter is you have no idea what you are talking about, you should stop posting in our threads and go play www.mylittlepony.com and leave the topic for the big boys that know a thing or 3 about what they are speaking on. As for the "you cant be number 1 on every fight BS... I would like to be number 1 on ANY fight, lets start with a buff to actually get hunters in the top spot on the 2 movement fights we just had in ToT (Leishen and Raden) go look at the info, two HUGE movement fights and hunters cant even sniff the top spot. So ya... go away and try and come up with a bit better bullshit ok pumpkin?

    I agree no one should be top spot for every fight, just seems Blizz doesn't agree with that (you have heard of mages haven't you?)

    My best advice would be to come with a solid set of numbers on actual real 5.4 fights, and post on the forums, and leave it at that.
    We thank you for the advice (from someone who quit his hunter due to them sucking) on telling us how great we are???? /mindblown again

    You tell us we are fine but quit cause we sucked, then you tell us to put numbers from real fights up. You may not get it but we have been posting numbers for years and getting nothing but smart as remarks and tripe from GC and Lore. Every time we go with solid information they say it means nothing without numbers, we link parses and sims and they say that our numbers mean exactly shit and the only real numbers are Blizzards secret undercover numbers and for us to quit whining.
    If you truly were a hunter you know all this so telling us to post some numbers is about as smart as telling us to stick our finger in a light socket...

    /facepam x 1000

  13. #353
    it's very irritating reading this people that says we are fine, so doing 15% less damage than mages, warlocks or even feral druids is fine? We HAVE the right to be able to do the same f**** dps as a mague or a warlock.

  14. #354
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Such as? All other classes bring something reliable to the table.

    WW Monks complain about their utility but honestly, I'd take their utility any day:
    -Best AoE stun in game by far
    -Can Soak 2 magic debuffs back-to-back(Heroic Lei Shen says hi) or just negate a lot of damage(self CDs basically)
    -Best movement in the game
    -Best taunt for clutch situations, I remember a WW Monk saving 1 Heroic Horridon kill by taunting the boss at the end and using Flying Kick to get away in 1 second.
    -AoE has no ramp up and can be literally spammed till no end.

    Mages cleared the discussion of utility by being the highest DPS every tier. Shadow Priests are good for VE, Mana Hymn and Multi-dotting(and possibly symbiosis-tranq).
    DKs already got overbuffed. Shamans already had the best off-heals of the hybrids and continue to do so with the buff to HTT being baseline and can choose AG with it for burst healing.

    What do hunters give? Traps, so good that no fight in this expansion has needed them, our MD is helpful on 1 fight this expansion(Tortos Heroic kite strat) and even then MD is very rubbish because other classes do more damage thus the extra threat is pretty much worthless.

    The core of Hunter issue is our scaling, because at Normal mode gear we do fine, but other classes get like 30-40% more DPS per point of Haste, Crit or Mastery so at Heroic gear we are so far behind. And Blizzard most of all refuses to recognize this issue, which has been around since Cataclysm launched. We have no passives that interact with Haste/Crit and our Mastery +% per point is horrible and our Masteries are just awful as a mechanic.
    If your going to call a taunt utility than hunters have one too. They are pretty much in your position. They have no utility that benefits the whole raid (Timewarp Skull banner Boomkin tranq..etc) Feral tranq isn't utility unless you want a 2k heal per tick from me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mokuton View Post
    it's very irritating reading this people that says we are fine, so doing 15% less damage than mages, warlocks or even feral druids is fine? We HAVE the right to be able to do the same f**** dps as a mague or a warlock.
    Feral Druids :3 what? Also yes you all should be doing the same amount of damage as mages warlocks and rogues. Also don
    t hunters have less utility than mages and less dps?
    Last edited by dashflash890; 2013-08-24 at 02:49 PM.

  15. #355
    hunters can't taunt bro. distracting shot hasn't worked for a while

  16. #356
    I do both pvp and pve, this seems really crappy for arenas, and no so much better for raiding. They're gonna have to do alot of buffing to other abilities for BM to be viable, Surv is ok, man I hated MM ever since hard casting aim shot in cata absolutely hate it!

    - - - Updated - - -

    I know of no serious 10 man raid leader that builds around a hunters pet buffs, you pick your base 5 which cover all buffs, then you stack what you need CD wise (hunters are not included in the base 5 or the stacking buddy) to make the fight doable. Oh and it does not "vary" in a 25, hunter buffs are useless in a decent 10 and non existent in 25s and sorry bud, unused utility is not utility, try to convince someone else of your BS.
    Not exactly true, 2 weeks ago our guild had to pug someone because the raider missing was getting married. So we didn't have lust, so I brought my corehound to raid with

    Oh forgot to mention we raid as a 10 man guild.

    - - - Updated - - -

    hunters can't taunt bro. distracting shot hasn't worked for a while
    It works but not very long, it still works though don't know where you're getting it doesn't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm sorry, but every fight is tank and spank for hunters, and that is exactly where their strength lies. So where everyone's dps will be crap because of movement, any proper hunter will continue to treat the fight like patchwerk.
    Lol wow, in some ways I wish this were true. Fights like Durumu and Lei Shen are far from tank n spank type fights for hunters.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    There are classes and specs in more need of attention than hunters.
    There are other pure dps classes that don't have at least 1 spec preforming extremely well in PvE?

  18. #358
    Fourth, 'bad spot'. While I agree hunters weren't great all expansion, as mentioned above they're still mandatory to bring and not that bad at all. They're not wotlk's shadow priests, for starters. Elemental shaman, now that's a bad spot
    I just have to "LOL" at this. I guess you have to be super super good to be top dps on a ele shammy? Our Ele shammy in our 10 man raid is top dps on almost every fight, if it's not him it's me, if it's not me, it's our mage.

  19. #359
    Warchief Shootandkill's Avatar
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    My problem right now isn't our position in the overarching scale of dps, my problem is that in 5.4 I will be doing less damage than I was doing in 5.3. Being low on the dps spectrum is annoying and I definitely think we should be higher, but being nerfed when we didn't deserve it in the slightest... that pisses me off.
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  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    It works but not very long, it still works though don't know where you're getting it doesn't.
    Since when does it work on the vast majority of bosses? We're talking about fully functional taunts. Distracting Shot and Growl don't work on most major bosses.

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