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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Meraned View Post
    [BM] 352.5k dps
    [SV] 349.2k dps
    As far as i know the KC Buffs are not baked in in those Dps.

  2. #522
    Pretty sure they are taken into account, as FD states to be up to date as of aug 26th which was after the buffs. Also the reason why SV is so close to BM is that the 2 and 4 set for SV provide about 23k dps where as for BM they provide around 17k. And if there will be more buffs to KC and ES there is a good chance that in max gear (579.2 ilvl) SV will actually pull ahead of BM due to the set bonus being so ridiculously strong.

  3. #523
    Stood in the Fire
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    early SimC results shows slightly higher dps for all specs
    375465 34.2% Hunter_BM_T16H
    365437 33.3% Hunter_SV_T16H
    355865 32.4% Hunter_MM_T16H

    I think as reported to lokrick that the latest KC buff is missing here, but anyway you can see that the DPS delta compared to rogues is not that wide. There's also spec specific tunning missing here. Think also that in most scenarios hunters usually beat sims by a "fair" margin (or that sims sim us lower than they should).

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by spaceape View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Finick View Post
    I've been wondering... The introduction of mastery was originally to give classes a "balancing knob" to turn, wasn't it? Why don't they ever turn that knob?

    They always seem to mess with everything else, and completely ignore mastery. Not that I think it would fix all the problems we have, but it would be nice to see if buffed so it was at least not such a weak secondary.
    Yeam man, you hit the nail on the head for me. Exactly what I think when I see balancing/scaling issues.
    A blue post already said that was a miscommunication. They don't want to use mastery as a tuning knob, because then mastery just becomes the best stat and everyone reforges mastery.

    It doesn't really make sense in most cases to use a stat to tune/adjust the entirety of a classes damage. Not that our mastery in general couldn't use an adjustment, but that's different from DPS balancing. If we're at where they want us and then they want to buff mastery or improve it's scaling, they'd just nerf something else.
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  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by pichuca View Post
    early SimC results shows slightly higher dps for all specs
    375465 34.2% Hunter_BM_T16H
    365437 33.3% Hunter_SV_T16H
    355865 32.4% Hunter_MM_T16H

    I think as reported to lokrick that the latest KC buff is missing here, but anyway you can see that the DPS delta compared to rogues is not that wide. There's also spec specific tunning missing here. Think also that in most scenarios hunters usually beat sims by a "fair" margin (or that sims sim us lower than they should).
    Why do people keep comparing sim numbers from different class modules, I thought that stopped being a thing in T14? People should know better.
    Kennyloggins - im afk

  6. #526
    Did the most recent changes put us back in a competitive state? Or is no one testing PTR this late?

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Volant View Post
    Did the most recent changes put us back in a competitive state? Or is no one testing PTR this late?
    Put us back to where live is right now, give or take a few dps.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot View Post
    Put us back to where live is right now, give or take a few dps.
    Which is as good as we're gonna get. Blizzard can't buff us any more to make up for a lack of any notable multidotting, or we will be op as hell on single target fights, not sure if that's really a bad thing. Then of course as we all know, as soon as any cleave/multidotting comes into a fight we will be in an uncomfortable position.

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  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabloks View Post
    Which is as good as we're gonna get. Blizzard can't buff us any more to make up for a lack of any notable multidotting, or we will be op as hell on single target fights, not sure if that's really a bad thing. Then of course as we all know, as soon as any cleave/multidotting comes into a fight we will be in an uncomfortable position.
    Well if our scaling was anywhere near most classes I wouldn't be worried, but as history has showed we have needed a mid patch buff because of our shitty scaling. I hope when they redo us in the next expansion that they fix our craptastic scaling.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyloggins View Post
    Why do people keep comparing sim numbers from different class modules, I thought that stopped being a thing in T14? People should know better.
    Gonna miss seeing you raid man.



    Quote Originally Posted by Volant View Post
    Did the most recent changes put us back in a competitive state? Or is no one testing PTR this late?
    I feel like I'm in a damn Lifetime movie with this class. Like, some day time movie where a guy gets sent to prison for a crime he didn't commit. So, they offer him the option to work on the chain-gang for 8 months to get a short sentence so he can see his kids. So he takes it, 'cuz he needs to get out and see his kids grow up, and there's that inevitable scene where it's glaringly bright, hot-as-hell, high noon, on a road out in the desert, and he's sweating and passing out from the heat, and the big tough "prison bully" type guy helps him up and is like "DO IT FOR YOUR KIDS", and he gets up, and he picks up the pickaxe and is breaking up stones and stuff and he's like "FOR MY KIDS!" and the prison guards all nod and are like "Respect", and everyone is cheering for him and stuff.

    Yeah, that's the damn scene every time I play my Hunter next tier. DO IT FOR YOUR GUILD. JUST ONE MORE TIER OF PROGRESSION AND YOU CAN REROLL. DO IT FOR YOUR GUILD. I dream fondly of the day I can stop playing this toon. I count it down on my calendar. Competitive? Hell no, we're a bundle of broken mechanics and flaming garbage. Can we *do* some fights? Sure, but the class has never been more half-assed.


    DO IT FOR YOUR GUILD.
    Last edited by subrosian; 2013-09-03 at 04:22 PM.
    subrosian @ Whisperwind, Raid Leader <Victory or Whatever> 25-man 13/13H, vowguild.com

  11. #531
    SimC has also been updated with latest buffs, and the results are promising. From Lokrick's latest SimC results on EJ (we had asked for breakdowns of fervor/toth/db in T16 BiS):

    398572 16.9% bm_moc_db
    395119 16.8% Hunter_BM_T16H (bs_db)
    394942 16.8% bm_moc_toth
    391290 16.6% bm_bs_toth
    387667 16.5% bm_moc_fervor
    386034 16.4% bm_bs_fervor

    If this is even close to accurate, we should be very competitive in BM. SV numbers were looking like ~10k dps difference in single target from BM, but Lokrick hasn't posted any similar breakdowns as to the above and certainly hasn't done the same tweaking he has done for the BM profiles.

    Also, somewhat of a request for more information here. Esoth has picked back up the SV guide at EJ and is looking for feedback on 5.4 analysis of:

    • Proper target count for multi-shot dot upkeep, and proper target count for spamming multi shot.
    • Preferred trinkets

    Has anyone done analyses of the multi-dotting/multishotting? I would guess that the target counts should be similar to 5.2/5.3 for SV. I know hunters have been claiming that fights like Council can see excellent dps gains from stinging each boss as SV. What's the breaking point on that?

  12. #532
    So according to these numbers aMoC/DB is better than Blink Strikes/DB for BM. I find that hard to believe in real raid scenarios, perhaps in a patchwork type fight?

  13. #533
    The Patient Kuul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windthorn View Post
    So according to these numbers aMoC/DB is better than Blink Strikes/DB for BM. I find that hard to believe in real raid scenarios, perhaps in a patchwork type fight?
    You are correct.

  14. #534
    What is the logic behind that. AMoC is weaker than it is on live, and blink strikes are not getting any nerfs that wouldn't affect AMoC too (Eg weaker trinkets).
    10 min fight -
    140% start
    280% 2 min
    420% 4 min
    560% 6 min
    700% 8 min.
    840% 10 min.

    10 min fight -
    200% start
    300% 2 min
    400% 4 min
    600% 6 min
    700% 8 min
    800% 10 min.

    And then readiness comes off again and it repeats (200% for live, 140% for ptr). Basicly, at some intervals, PTR AMoC is slightly ahead, on some live is. Can you test with different time intervals, just to make sure you aren't setting it to a "sweet spot" for PTR AMoC?

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    What is the logic behind that. AMoC is weaker than it is on live, and blink strikes are not getting any nerfs that wouldn't affect AMoC too (Eg weaker trinkets).
    10 min fight -
    140% start
    280% 2 min
    420% 4 min
    560% 6 min
    700% 8 min.
    840% 10 min.

    10 min fight -
    200% start
    300% 2 min
    400% 4 min
    600% 6 min
    700% 8 min
    800% 10 min.

    And then readiness comes off again and it repeats (200% for live, 140% for ptr). Basicly, at some intervals, PTR AMoC is slightly ahead, on some live is. Can you test with different time intervals, just to make sure you aren't setting it to a "sweet spot" for PTR AMoC?
    You have to take into account that the second AMoC with readiness has to be cast at 30 second in and then every two minutes after that.
    Friend Code: 4570-7432-6960. Add me if you want to play some Pokemon.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Shootandkill View Post
    You have to take into account that the second AMoC with readiness has to be cast at 30 second in and then every two minutes after that.
    Regardless, the overall output is at worst even, at best in favor of the current AMoC at the majority of time-intervals. You also have to consider things like not getting to use the full 30 seconds of AMoC on an almost-dying boss, or immunity phases etc, all part of the RNG of a "real" encounter.
    I am also not seeing an increase in DPS from using AMoC when enabling PTR on Femaledwarf.com - suffice to say that I remain unconvinced that it's supposed to be better.

  17. #537
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Oh boy, Blizzard wanted the min-maxers to use active instead of passive, but they are making TotH and BS best for BM.... Logic.jpg

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Regardless, the overall output is at worst even, at best in favor of the current AMoC at the majority of time-intervals. You also have to consider things like not getting to use the full 30 seconds of AMoC on an almost-dying boss, or immunity phases etc, all part of the RNG of a "real" encounter.
    I am also not seeing an increase in DPS from using AMoC when enabling PTR on Femaledwarf.com - suffice to say that I remain unconvinced that it's supposed to be better.
    FD was last updated on 8/26 and is working off an earlier build. SimC was simming about 10k dps higher than FD for 17331 (the build that FD is using, I believe). SimC is now updated to build 17345, and Lokrick claims it is now more in line with BM mechanics on the PTR.

    Also, SimC has always been more accurate at modeling haste than FD. Zeherah has certainly acknowledged that. I know that for both simulators, they are not accurately modeling MM rotations (Lokrick detailed his attempts at addressing this here), but I'm not entirely sure about the limitations of the BM profiles. We'll certainly see updates to the simulators in the next 3-4 weeks as Lokrick and Zeherah have more time to adjust to the 5.4 changes.

    Edit: P.S. I am still recommending BS over AMoC on the BM guide. Such a small gain is negligible when considering in-game mechanics, the focus requirements of AMoC (especially given the increased focus cost of AS), etc. Besides, simulators tend to award more hits from pet-like abilities like crows and DB than what actually occur in average parses. We could be seeing something like that in SimC right now for AMoC.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2013-09-05 at 04:39 PM.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Oh boy, Blizzard wanted the min-maxers to use active instead of passive, but they are making TotH and BS best for BM.... Logic.jpg
    I thought they wanted to remove how many buttons we have to press.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    FD was last updated on 8/26 and is working off an earlier build. SimC was simming about 10k dps higher than FD for 17331 (the build that FD is using, I believe). SimC is now updated to build 17345, and Lokrick claims it is now more in line with BM mechanics on the PTR.

    Also, SimC has always been more accurate at modeling haste than FD. Zeherah has certainly acknowledged that. I know that for both simulators, they are not accurately modeling MM rotations (Lokrick detailed his attempts at addressing this here), but I'm not entirely sure about the limitations of the BM profiles. We'll certainly see updates to the simulators in the next 3-4 weeks as Lokrick and Zeherah have more time to adjust to the 5.4 changes.

    Edit: P.S. I am still recommending BS over AMoC on the BM guide. Such a small gain is negligible when considering in-game mechanics, the focus requirements of AMoC (especially given the increased focus cost of AS), etc. Besides, simulators tend to award more hits from pet-like abilities like crows and DB than what actually occur in average parses. We could be seeing something like that in SimC right now for AMoC.
    All the 08-27 notes added, was damage buffs to our main nukes. The balance between AMoC and Blink Strikes should be completly untouched. No mastery or haste scaling was changed, and the two spells themselves weren't either. The only difference that you should see is base damage increasing, the proportional damage difference between AMoC and Blink strikes should not change. If they are changing due to a Kill Command buff, then something's gone derp with the module.

    Also, I'm about 95% sure Zeherah's is up to date. The changes were data-mined the 26th, and the tool was updated the 26th. She just didn't wait for the officall patch notes before implementing the changes to the PTR-stats.

    As for Haste being hard to simulate for FD, it should not be affecting BS nor AMoC in any major ways. I concede that the overall DPS might be slightly off from the "real" value, but once again - with no haste procs etc, the amount of damage added by haste is fairly consistent apart from how many cobra shots etc we do, with no real or extremely minor effects on FD/AMoC.

    But if there is any logic/math behind why AMoC would suddenly overtake Blink Strikes with 3K dps, I'm all ears tbh. I just can't for the life of me figure out why.


    Quote Originally Posted by BergErr View Post
    I thought they wanted to remove how many buttons we have to press.
    Not through making talent choises obsolete.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-09-05 at 05:55 PM.

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