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  1. #1

    Death Knight Button Bloat

    Is button bloat an issue for death knights? I think so. The developers say that this "button bloat" is defined by having abilities you rarely use but are still keybound somewhere on your bars for the off chance you might need it. But what can we really get rid of without sacrificing the class we know and love?

    From a dps point of view, things like death strike, chains of ice, death grip and such all have places on my bars but rarely get used. Death strike shouldn't be used in place of a dps attack normally so it really doesn't have a place on our bars EXCEPT for the fact that in has saved my life multiple times. Glyph of dark succor makes it even more useful BUT only if the fight includes ads that need to be killed. And even then what are the chances of you needing a heal within 15 seconds of killing said add? But if we remove death strike from the dps specs then death knights lose a very important signature of their class: a damaging heal. Death knights have always been cool to me because they had these offensive heals and I really liked that. While this ability is extremely important for our class identity, it only causes more of a problem for the button bloat issue. Chains of ice has only been used so far on Tortos this tier and even then I just HB with chillblains. Doesn't seem as awesome as an epic chain of ice... but when you can have the same cost (1 frost rune) BUT have it tied into an attack it makes the ability seem silly. Death grip has great use but little if the fights have no adds to be pulled.

    I don't have much in the ways of ideas for fixing any of these except death grip. Death grip wouldn't feel as bad if they added something to it. First off, tranquil grip should be baseline for all dps specs. We hardly have any reason to taunt stuff anyway. Secondly, on raid bosses and other things that are permanently immune to it's pulling effect we should be able to pull ourselves to the target. Now this only works on PERMANENT immunity. Temporary immunity such as pillar of frost would not have this effect so it wouldn't have any impact on PvP. I know dks have been asking for more mobility but the issue with that has been the fact that we do have good "mobility" but it revolves around pulling stuff to us. With this change, death grip will feel like an extremely useful tool in a raiding environment and still be balanced in PvP.

    Any other suggestions or abilities you feel should be removed/changed?

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  2. #2
    As a dps dk, I would like a real taunt again.

  3. #3
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    From a dps point of view, things like death strike, chains of ice, death grip and such all have places on my bars but rarely get used. Death strike shouldn't be used in place of a dps attack normally so it really doesn't have a place on our bars EXCEPT for the fact that in has saved my life multiple times. Glyph of dark succor makes it even more useful BUT only if the fight includes ads that need to be killed. And even then what are the chances of you needing a heal within 15 seconds of killing said add? But if we remove death strike from the dps specs then death knights lose a very important signature of their class: a damaging heal.
    Death Strike and glyph of dark succor are useful for a lot more than raiding... They're great for soloing, doing dailies, leveling, and such things.

    Death knights have always been cool to me because they had these offensive heals and I really liked that. While this ability is extremely important for our class identity, it only causes more of a problem for the button bloat issue. Chains of ice has only been used so far on Tortos this tier and even then I just HB with chillblains. Doesn't seem as awesome as an epic chain of ice... but when you can have the same cost (1 frost rune) BUT have it tied into an attack it makes the ability seem silly.
    Chains of ice is nigh-essential for DKs in PvP.

    I don't have much in the ways of ideas for fixing any of these except death grip. Death grip wouldn't feel as bad if they added something to it. First off, tranquil grip should be baseline for all dps specs. We hardly have any reason to taunt stuff anyway. Secondly, on raid bosses and other things that are permanently immune to it's pulling effect we should be able to pull ourselves to the target. Now this only works on PERMANENT immunity. Temporary immunity such as pillar of frost would not have this effect so it wouldn't have any impact on PvP. I know dks have been asking for more mobility but the issue with that has been the fact that we do have good "mobility" but it revolves around pulling stuff to us. With this change, death grip will feel like an extremely useful tool in a raiding environment and still be balanced in PvP.
    The reverse death grip thing would be cool, but warriors might complain it's a bit too much like their charge.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Death Strike and glyph of dark succor are useful for a lot more than raiding... They're great for soloing, doing dailies, leveling, and such things.



    Chains of ice is nigh-essential for DKs in PvP.



    The reverse death grip thing would be cool, but warriors might complain it's a bit too much like their charge.
    All good points. I just feel like we have too many buttons to bind still. I use 1 2 3 4, shift 1 2 3, num 1-10, f, g, r, e, b5 (razer naga), b4, shift b5, shift b4, shift num 1 (or end)... and I THINK that's all... on a normal raid night. Just seems crazy.

    As for the chains... maybe remove the chillblains talent, make it baseline, and add something in it's place?

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  5. #5
    Dks are fairly fortunate to not have the kind of bloat they talk about. While their definition appears to be abilities you have on your bar but never use, I feel its more along the lines of abilities that could reasonably be merged, baked in or removed without huge repurcussions.

    For us, I think our biggest culprits are Chains of Ice and Dark Simulacrum.

    Chains of Ice could easily be baked into icy touch or even the reverse. Picture an icy touch tooltip that looked something like this:

    Deals x damage and inflicts the target with frost fever. In addition, slows the target by 60% for 8 seconds.

    Sure, it may require some reworking, ( what about CoI root? What about icy touch dispel? Spammable dispel/snare would be too strong in pvp) but things like widow venom, concussion shot would probably get similar treatment.

    Dark Simulacrum could/should have a different treatment, in pve it is near impossible to find good reliable usage out of it. In pve it gives a reasonable skill-based ability that can have a reasonable or even game changing impact. However using it properly isn't mandatory at all. You can essentially ignore it and still do quite well. It should either be removed, or be made into something that really is worth using in both pvp and pve. (Its not bloat if it is used!)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Is button bloat an issue for death knights? I think so. The developers say that this "button bloat" is defined by having abilities you rarely use but are still keybound somewhere on your bars for the off chance you might need it. But what can we really get rid of without sacrificing the class we know and love?

    From a dps point of view, things like death strike, chains of ice, death grip and such all have places on my bars but rarely get used. Death strike shouldn't be used in place of a dps attack normally so it really doesn't have a place on our bars EXCEPT for the fact that in has saved my life multiple times. Glyph of dark succor makes it even more useful BUT only if the fight includes ads that need to be killed. And even then what are the chances of you needing a heal within 15 seconds of killing said add? But if we remove death strike from the dps specs then death knights lose a very important signature of their class: a damaging heal. Death knights have always been cool to me because they had these offensive heals and I really liked that. While this ability is extremely important for our class identity, it only causes more of a problem for the button bloat issue. Chains of ice has only been used so far on Tortos this tier and even then I just HB with chillblains. Doesn't seem as awesome as an epic chain of ice... but when you can have the same cost (1 frost rune) BUT have it tied into an attack it makes the ability seem silly. Death grip has great use but little if the fights have no adds to be pulled.
    There's more to the game than raiding? Yeah, you may not find much use for CoI in raids, but have fun PvPing without it. Likewise, Dark Succor Death Strikes are a huge help with leveling and doing dailies, even if they don't see much use in raids. Of all our abilities, I was said Dark Sim is the closest to bloat. So few uses in PvE, and even in PvP it's a tremendous crapshoot-sure, sometimes you get something awesome like Avenging Wrath or Ring of Frost or Blink, but other times you get something like a piddly Ice Lance, or Moonfire, or Levitate.

  7. #7
    Not moderating, just trying to help. Some really good suggestions about button bloat and potential fixes are on this forum already: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-in-the-Future

  8. #8
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    DKs don't really have an issue with button bloat IMHO. Everything we have serves some sort of purpose. Taking away things like chains of ice/baking it into icy touch would leave the issue of a damaging slow that could dispel (op) and possibly removing death strike for non-tank specs would leave a situation where you'd need some sort of extra heal baked into an existing ability.

    We have specific abilities that are just win from a PvP POV like chains, dark sim, necrotic strike that are rarely (if ever) used in a PvE environment but that doesn't constitute bloat. I'm also sure devs aren't overly keen on classes having an abundance of passive effects just because they want to reduce the amount of buttons.

    additionally a similar thread was created a few days ago :/

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-in-the-Future
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    additionally a similar thread was created a few days ago :/

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-in-the-Future
    Ah my bad. I was unaware as I browse these forums quite frequently and didn't come across it.

    Anyway, I guess the biggest problem with the game then might just be the balance between PvP and PvE. I feel like certain abilities in the game might be added purely for a PvP balance and then Blizzard finds ways to make that ability useful in PvE. Maybe if they changed the PvE content to not require those abilities ever? But then of course that takes away from what happens in PvE and makes it more boring.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2013-08-20 at 07:01 AM.

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  10. #10
    Epic! Arcanimus's Avatar
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    DK button bloat has nothing on Hunter button bloat. our rotational abilities alone cover more bar space than all 3 specs' rotational abilities, defensive cooldowns, and the like.
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  11. #11
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    Of all our abilities, I was said Dark Sim is the closest to bloat. So few uses in PvE, and even in PvP it's a tremendous crapshoot-sure, sometimes you get something awesome like Avenging Wrath or Ring of Frost or Blink, but other times you get something like a piddly Ice Lance, or Moonfire, or Levitate.
    I think the MOST fun waste of a dark simulacrum is when you use it right before a warlock finishes casting fear, or a paladin slams you with hammer of justice... you get feared/stunned, it blows the Dark Simulacrum CD... but you don't actually get a copy of the ability...

    If they want to make Dark Simulacrum more useful it should cost no Runic Power to cast and have the CD/duration of its glyphed form as a baseline.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I think the MOST fun waste of a dark simulacrum is when you use it right before a warlock finishes casting fear, or a paladin slams you with hammer of justice... you get feared/stunned, it blows the Dark Simulacrum CD... but you don't actually get a copy of the ability...
    My most depressing one was catching a Deep Freeze. Awesome! Now if only I could freeze someone so I could actually use it...

  13. #13
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    My most depressing one was catching a Deep Freeze. Awesome! Now if only I could freeze someone so I could actually use it...
    You USED to be able to do that in Cataclysm, in conjunction with the old hungering cold.

    Don't forget unleash elementals... can't actually use it, but you can copy it

    Unlike those snap fears and horrifies that locks and priests use... you know, actually USEFUL abilities to copy.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You USED to be able to do that in Cataclysm, in conjunction with the old hungering cold.
    It happened in Cata, but I was blood, so no Hungering Cold sadly.

  15. #15
    Blood Strike, Pestilence/Blood Boil and Chains of Ice/Icy Touch.

    Following can be done for these abilities:
    Blood Strike is a base ability and upon changing into a spec morphs into Heart Strike / Obliterate / Scourge Strike.
    Pestilence is a base ability that morphs into Blood Boil for Blood spec DKs.

    Either Chains of Ice or Icy Touch is a base ability that morphs into Howling Blast for Frost Spec DKs. By base it has a snare ability and the dispell is tied to a glyphed-AMS which has a 12 sec CD with 25% absorb being castable on others with a dispell that removes harmful effects, costs 20 RP and the spell-effect immunity is removed.

  16. #16
    The Patient Lachez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    As a dps dk, I would like a real taunt again.
    Post this all over every single forum. There's no good reason why they took this out.

    OT: We don't really have button bloat. I have a lot of empty spaces on my bars, at least compared to my hunter :P
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachez View Post
    I have a lot of empty spaces on my bars, at least compared to my hunter :P
    Same here as dps lot of empty space on the bars.

  18. #18
    DK button bloat I would say is low to average, frost being the lowest, then blood, then UH. I think DK button rotations are about as bloated as a mage. You can still be ok as frost with only HB, FS, Oblit. The places that I see some bloat are the mitigation CD's/options on blood, and mainly where you burn runes to turn them into death runes for UH. I find UH similar to locks in cata ie:, dot, filler action, filler action, maintain/refresh, etc... The bloat comes when I see blood and frost runes available. Do I use blood strike, bloodboil? Do I use icy touch first? Am I capped on runic power? There is a bit of bloat there, and being a bit gcd capped. Other than that I like UH a lot.

  19. #19
    On the topic of taunt, taking that away from DKs as well as unholy frenzy not breaking CC makes me feel like they took skill out of the spec. Taunting pets to break CC was skill, knowing when to use UF to make sure your healer stayed out of CC was skill.

    I would love to not hit that stupid horn of winter keybind every 20 seconds. I hit it so much I have to unbind that on my alts because I do it instinctively. I also think army of the dead needs to be reworked and is quite stupid. What a waste of runes/time for such small damage. It should be something we want to cast in the middle of the fight not just when we can't do anything else. I glanced at the other wrath era spells and ours is the only one not in real use anymore. Path of frost is another cool skill that I have on my bars but rarely use that could be baked in with something else or maybe just a passive. DnD has lost all of it's use really and the only time it is useful is picking up adds in a totally separate location, something that can easily be missed. I just think the DK class overall has fallen behind the times. When it first came out it had so much novelty that it made the other classes look silly and antiquated by comparison but now it is the other way around. Blizzard seems to feel that it is okay to modernize the other classes while leaving DKs stuck in 2008.

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    DnD has lost all of it's use really and the only time it is useful is picking up adds in a totally separate location, something that can easily be missed. I just think the DK class overall has fallen behind the times. When it first came out it had so much novelty that it made the other classes look silly and antiquated by comparison but now it is the other way around. Blizzard seems to feel that it is okay to modernize the other classes while leaving DKs stuck in 2008.
    Totally. That's exactly what I think.

    The class is stuck in some kind of temporal pocket and refuses to move on mechanically.

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