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  1. #1

    Button Bloat - Rogue Edition

    I have seen this on forums for a number of other classes and thought it would be good to hear from Rogues.

    Blizzard has said we have too many abilities and so it would be good to hear what people would be willing to lose (assume you have to choose 5). For me (PvE Rogue, if I had to lose 5 abilities):

    Talent based abilities - Deadly Throw and Combat, and Throw/Shuriken Toss
    Crimson Tempest
    Distract
    Expose Armor
    Pick Lock (although they would have to make lockboxes open some other way).

    I deliberately do not count Pickpocket, Shadow Walk, Shroud of Concealment as I do not have those bound normally.

  2. #2
    Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis

    Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata

    Tricks - once a great ability, but now that threat is a non issue, it is reduced to a really annoying single target dps buff

    Shadow walk - extremely annoying to have to hit that.... should be passive considering the ridiculous AEs people have to unstealth us anyway

    Prep - a cooldown to reset cooldowns... never been a fan of that mechanic

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I have seen this on forums for a number of other classes and thought it would be good to hear from Rogues.
    I think these threads are people chasing a different game. One that is lesser, with your character more limited.

    Blizzard has said we have too many abilities
    PLEASE QUOTE A SOURCE WHERE BLIZZARD STATES ROGUES HAVE TOO MANY ABILITIES???????

    Rogues do not.


    and so it would be good to hear what people would be willing to lose (assume you have to choose 5).
    I choose 0.

    For me (PvE Rogue, if I had to lose 5 abilities):

    Talent based abilities - Deadly Throw and Combat, and Throw/Shuriken Toss
    Crimson Tempest
    Distract
    Expose Armor
    Pick Lock (although they would have to make lockboxes open some other way).
    Deadly Throw you can already opt out of. I really like it, but I'm sad I can hardly ever choose it now. It should be baseline again.
    Combat Readiness is a powerful defense, and a go-to for rogue defenses, especially versus comps that can sit the rogue.
    Throw? You want to get rid of Throw?
    And Shuriken Toss is another button you can already opt out of.

    Under your system, rogues have 0 ranged abilities, which sounds absolutely shit. But, lets continue.

    Crimson Tempest provides an aoe finisher. You only list it because you don't play sub, and because it is undertuned. It's still a very solid ability.

    Distract is super useful. I use it every BG, I use it when questing. I would be damned pissed if that went away because someone thinks we have "bloat". When you have a big bank account, is that "dollar bloat"?

    Expose Armor is finally good. If it were to go away, I would hope that they would be taking away ALL of those abilities. In which case, it could be ok. The overall debuff is neutered enough that it really only matters much in raids, though I do like to put up a three stack in prep for a burst phase in arenas. I like this ability, but if everyone lost this raid debuff it could be ok.

    Pick lock even YOU aren't willing to lose. You just want the ability itself gone? What the heck.



    I deliberately do not count Pickpocket, Shadow Walk, Shroud of Concealment as I do not have those bound normally.

    You would bind those last two if you PvPed much, and shadow walk is perfectly useful in much of PvE- any tight space. Shroud is very solid in challenge modes, and is used in EVERY arena match.

    Pickpocket is something that a lot of rogues really like. Why don't you have it bound? Is your stealth bar THAT super full?


    Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis
    You want assassination to just build combo points and never use them?

    Remember, you wouldn't get eviscerate back. This is about removing buttons.


    Plus, why would you want to trade envenom away? That's one of the biggest cool parts about the spec, is that we get a nature hit instead of more mitigated by armor bullshit!

    Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata
    While they should probably give it a new animation, icon, and sound effect (instead of it being, well, the same as backstab), remember- you don't HAVE backstab any more. You have to spec sub if you want it.

    Dispatch is a HUGE buff over that crappy execute backstab we had. Not only do we not have to choose a position (which is awful during the spammiest section of a fight, because losing sight of the back even for a moment would result in lost moves), but we also get to keep a 120 sized energy bar, instead of a 90 sized one. Previously, you had to get to 60 energy before you could do a move- which gave you only 60 energy of breathing room if you wanted to pool or something, which is not very much. Now, the move actually costs 30. It is MUCH smoother.

    And if you deleted dispatch, you would just lose an entire move. Now mutilate would be super lame, without the procs and without an execute phase. Why on earth would you want this? You SERIOUSLY think dispatch is "bloat"?

    Tricks - once a great ability, but now that threat is a non issue, it is reduced to a really annoying single target dps buff
    I really like tricks. I like figuring out who is doing the most damage so I can make the biggest dps with it, because making big dps is my fucking job. The only change I'd like to see for tricks is for the damage to be recorded under the rogue in the combat log. It would be the exact same move, but suddenly everyone would be sucking each other off trying to make big tricks, instead of claiming it's a "personal dps loss" because recount rewards it differently. The number of people playing recount makes me angry. The number of people who literally will argue with this position makes me just fucking sad.

    Shadow walk - extremely annoying to have to hit that.... should be passive considering the ridiculous AEs people have to unstealth us anyway
    The whole point of this move is to press it when a stealther is around. Don't you use it for that? The fact that some AOEs can be absurd (and remember, some of this has been fixed- like halo, which was the worst offender) isn't really related, but it WOULD be cool if it made you immune to track hidden for the duration. Originally I thought it would be nice if it made you not unstealthed by aoes, but subterfuge plus our relatively decent mobility have made "oops walked into blizzard" a pretty rare event. I would like it if it swung the game a little more than it does, though.


    Prep - a cooldown to reset cooldowns... never been a fan of that mechanic
    Meh. Here I just disagree- I think it's a really compelling mechanic- I like that it rewards a correct choice and punishes a bad one, while being powerful and cool. Also, if this button were deleted, we'd definitely need double charges on vanish, evasion, and sprint.

  4. #4
    The biggest and even only one in my opinion is expose armor.
    Expose armor as active skill makes no sense to me, i always say that expose armor should be a passive that gives the same effect to envenom/eviscerate.

    Hemorrhage is another candidate, but it implies a redesign of backstab, that means there won't be possitional requierement anymore but hemorrhage could be baked into it as extra benefit when attacking from behind (just like that kick those monk bastards have).

    Crimson Tempest should be only for subtley and make a decent amount of damage, the other 2 specs already have good aoe mechanics and don't need CT.

    Shadow walk could be better, but it is used and has sense, the same for shroud and distract. All 3 are part of our 'sneaky bastard toolkit'

    Tricks of the trade needs to change to also give something to the rogue, but there is no need to remove it.

    Shiv could be a candidate also, but i don't think is that bad and i like it, even if don't use it very often.

    Pick lock and pickpocket are just for fun, you don't normally bind these to use them in combat, so they really don't contribute to the problem. Although i must say that pickpocket as some kind of spellsteal or even a modified symbiosis (you get a spell... they don't) could be awesome as a rogue ability.

  5. #5
    Prep: the most nerfed ability in the game.

    Verain wasn't saying that envenom should be taken out just that it's the same thing as evis with a different name. Same with how dispatch is back stab without the positional requirements but with a different name but pretty much the same ability.

    Rogues really don't have that many abilities. We have stealth abilities which I guess you could say adds a lot more but really it's a different bar used at a specific time so they don't add bloat at all.

    I think the OP is confused between hunters and rogues since they get lumped together a lot with how both classes need spec revamps since they're all so similar. But while that's true it's hunters that always complain about button bloat and personally that's the main reason I don't play a hunter. Way too many buttons to use that even with a gaming speed pad AND a razer naga I don't have enough key binds for them all... Rogues on the other hand don't have that many.

  6. #6
    No, just no .
    If anything we need more abilities. The rotations are plain and bland, each spec needs atleast couple more spec specific abilities. Cata sub was fun, that should be the baseline. Not the RSI inducing spammy combat , or passive damage meter winner assassination.

    The rogues utility toolkit is decent, nothing is vestigial, I can maybe agree on tricks being kind of useless, but it still has some uses in 10man where u dont have hunter to missdirect the adds to tank.
    Playing subtlety is like ballroom dancing, just that there is an ugly monster between you and your partner (tank).
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...traws/advanced

  7. #7
    Rogue buttons bloat derives a lot from the fact we have a lot of tools for PvE only and also a lot of things for PvP only. If i think at what i never use my thoughts go immediately to:
    - expose armor
    - pickpocket
    - shadow walk
    These abilites have no room in the game imho.

    Also Prep is a bad mechanic, it needs to be removed - makes the cooldowns availability too binary.

    As for the rest, i think we just need to make some spells spec specific so the overall number will still be high, but in fact every spec has a reduced number of buttons to care of. Also something like kidney shot could be redesigned like Storm Bolt, that does some damage and stuns or does a lot of damage on stun immune targets - so the same ability have its uses in PvE AND PvP.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis

    Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata

    Tricks - once a great ability, but now that threat is a non issue, it is reduced to a really annoying single target dps buff

    Shadow walk - extremely annoying to have to hit that.... should be passive considering the ridiculous AEs people have to unstealth us anyway

    Prep - a cooldown to reset cooldowns... never been a fan of that mechanic
    Dispatch really isn't a "new ability" per se. It replaces sinister strike so it doesn't add to your button count (same with hemo). In fact, it's mutilate/backstab/RvS that add to it. Same argument for envenom, it's not really ability bloat since it doesn't add anything to your spellbook. Just replaces 1 spell with another.


    Expose Armor: Between crippling poison and pvp 2-set, glyph of debilitation is worthless. Instead of finishers making a slow, why not use the glyph to make finishers cast weakened armor and remove expose armor. Then rogues can bring the debuff without any personal dps cost and it frees up a button.

    Distract: While nice, it's not really necessary. It's really only flavorful--The legendary dagger quests will also need to be made trivial (since smart use of distract is one of the keys to the stealth parts). But keeping abilities for the sake of flavor and old content is not prudent. Get rid of it.

    Pick Pocket: See above--or just make it a passive such that "any time you perform a hostile action while stealthed, you have a chance to pick the target's pocket" Stuff goes straight to your bag--no loot window. I macro pickpocket to all my openers and have autoloot turned on so it's basically like this for me anyway.

    Pick Lock: don't make locked boxes anymore, and remove the engineering charges and blacksmith skeleton keys, too. Would spare me from random trade windows when I'm trying to sort my bank, too.

    Prep: Cds that reset cds are a big time, bad perpetrator of ability bloat.

  9. #9
    * Pick lock/pocket. Lockboxes need to go away, they are a giant pain in the butt and don't add anything but a mailbox full of annoyance for me. Pick pocket is just another form of tedium... either make it a passive or remove it or bake it into something like sap or ambush.

    * Prep: As mentioned by others, this is dumb design. If you really want a similar mechanic, give our cooldowns the roll treatment and give them charges.

    * Stealth mirrors for abilities: This is a vestige of older times. Lots of classes have abilities that behave differently based on spec or stance. There's no reason to have stealth activate another bar. Just bake them into the same button. Ambush = dispatch/backstab (remove positional requirement). Sap = gouge. Garrote = rupture. Cheap shot = kidney shot. You would never use the out of stealth version of these if you could use the stealth version. There are more examples I could come up with... Distract and blind are another potential example (though admittedly more of a stretch). This is how I bind my stealth bar anyway... the principle is the same, with a slight twist. Some abilities of course don't have stealth mirrors, like shiv or mutilate/SS, but many do. Maybe that's an opportunity to add more flavor to our class, along with giving us ways to re-enter stealth more often.

    * Remove wound poison, and if desired bake it into deadly. The devs have already mentioned they regret giving so many other classes an MS effect, and ours is a straight DPS loss to use.

    * Tricks is... weird. It still has use on a few fights (Tortos bats comes to mind), but in 10 man situations you often need to glyph it to make it worth it. It is a nice utility, but in 25 mans, outside of the pull, it devolves into a short, annoying buff. Maybe just baseline the glyph and remove the damage buff altogether?

    * While I don't want to remove it, vendetta is incredibly bland compared to the other spec CDs. It could use revisiting.

    * Remove expose armor, bake it in, if necessary.

    EDIT: * Redirect/Combo Points on Target: You could argue this adds flavor, but really it just adds annoyance.

    I will say, we need more abilities as part of our rotation, at least as Assassination. I'd say combat is in a good place in terms of complexity (between BG, maintaing RS, SS, keeping up SND manually + evis).
    Last edited by zurm; 2013-08-20 at 02:26 PM.

  10. #10
    It seems I'll mostly repeat what others already said.
    1. Crimson Tempest (for Combat only) - doesn't really have much use for this spec and fits perfectly into "unnecessary bloat" category
    2. Tricks of the Trade - it used to be great utility CD in Wrath, now it's just weird DPS cooldown thats nothing else but annyoing, fix it or remove it
    3. Shadow Walk - I mean ... really?
    4. Preparation - I never liked CD-reset abilities, give us shorter cooldowns instead
    5. Expose Armor - feels somewhat outdated, could be easily replaced by a glyph (RvS/SnD/Rupture applies Weakened Armor or something like that)

  11. #11
    High Overlord
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    Opinions of people in this thread who call themselves Rogues make me sad. Maybe you guys rerolled in 4.3?

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-08-21 at 05:12 AM.
    I survived 2010 Summer in Moscow without leaving city for a single day!

  12. #12
    * TotT: Crap skill, nuff said
    * Expose armor: Useless as active skill, used only once during nalice encounter in 7 years of rogue
    * Crimson Tempest: Pathetic dmg for mut and combat, only viable for sub with heavy mastery build
    * Shadow walk: really??? Shadow walk should be redesigned and work as a temporary stealth on a [put number here] seconds cooldown, just like vanish but lasting only 5 seconds... with this change subterfuge and cloak and dagger could see some utility with muti and combat too...
    Haste will fix it ©

  13. #13
    I could loose Lockpicking as a Active ability.
    Just do the lockpicking when trying to open locked stuff, when you try to open them. (Ie Right click to open a box, will start lockpicking it if it locked, or right click a door etc)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Galufio View Post
    Opinions of people in this thread who call themselves Rogues make me sad. Maybe you guys rerolled in 4.3?
    I played in late wrath, then quit late cata (I had no part in the legendary quest chain). Care to elaborate on your grievances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    I could loose Lockpicking as a Active ability.
    Just do the lockpicking when trying to open locked stuff, when you try to open them. (Ie Right click to open a box, will start lockpicking it if it locked, or right click a door etc)
    Another good idea, but really it's just another step to getting what you ultimately want. Blizzard is good at removing unnecessary extra steps (compare Hearthstone to Magic: The Gathering, mana maintenance is gone). I'd take this over no changes gladly. Also a massive reduction in the cast. Don't make me use a minor glyph.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    I played in late wrath, then quit late cata (I had no part in the legendary quest chain). Care to elaborate on your grievances?
    Half the people go "i dont need this to max my fighting ability -we can delete it" , its sad cause things like pick pocket add just to the unique class feeling
    its like throwing away the seasoning cause you dont really need it to eat the steak

  16. #16
    Off the top of my head the least needed rogue buttons are:
    1. Redirect - I don't exactly want the CPs on the rogue but to me this is just a button that does the same thing if they are going to have it do what it does with a 10 sec cd blizz should just remove it and put the CPs on us.
    2. Expose Armor - Bake into a CP builder or a glyph to add it to something.
    3. Prep - shorter CDs instead
    4. Slice and Dice - Just not exciting however you look at it.
    5. Pick Lock - remove the button a rogue clicking on a locked box just opens it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Half the people go "i dont need this to max my fighting ability -we can delete it" , its sad cause things like pick pocket add just to the unique class feeling
    its like throwing away the seasoning cause you dont really need it to eat the steak
    The idea of pick pocket is fine, but it's just another button you have to hit, that most people either macro or completely disregard. The IMPLEMENTATION is outdated, not the idea (necessarily).

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Naxere's Avatar
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    I'd get rid of Preparation (and all cooldowns that reset other cooldowns). I'd merge Gouge and Kick (interrupts cast and incapacitates for 4s), and I'd bake Expose Armor into Eviscerate/Envenom.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    The idea of pick pocket is fine, but it's just another button you have to hit, that most people either macro or completely disregard. The IMPLEMENTATION is outdated, not the idea (necessarily).
    why does it have to be 100% or 0%? I only use it occassionally but thats okay, the first and foremost reason to let it exist is to let you feel more like a rogue if you desire it.
    I think likewise the removal of poison brewing as a rogue was the same, you lost flavour for convenience.

  20. #20
    Why does our flavor have to be in pick pocketing? We are supposed to be the masters of stealth, yet we hardly ever use it once combat starts (except for a second to vanish and get a cheap ambush off). Why not focus our "flavor" into something like returning into stealth mid-combat? Or using cheap tactics to win against our opponents (like creating decoys or more heavy use of smoke effects)?

    Pick pocketing's flavor only really exists from the glyph allowing us to look like the target; the loot aspect is boring is rarely ever rewards anything worthwhile. Just because it's unique doesn't mean that alone warrants it stays. It's unique, but boring (at least, IMO).

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