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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Half the people go "i dont need this to max my fighting ability -we can delete it" , its sad cause things like pick pocket add just to the unique class feeling
    its like throwing away the seasoning cause you dont really need it to eat the steak
    Agreed. Things like Pick Pocket or Distract add flavour and can be really useful when questing/soloing. I was kinda sad when they simplified Lockpicking skill to raise automatically with your level. It was kinda fun to do this little grind to max the skill after each expansion - not many people did that and being on of few that could open that high-level epic lockbox from Wrath felt quite rewarding.

    The truth is that they could certainly slightly increase motivation to use Pick Pocket or Lockpick. Those three epics at the start of every expansion aren't bad, but not nearly enough. Especially considering the world-drop level drop chance.
    Last edited by Fae; 2013-08-20 at 02:54 PM.

  2. #22
    If you had to kill buttons theres plenty of other canditates,
    i would put expose armor into eviscerate , remove dispatch and add the proc as backstab from any position with bonus damage

    shuriken toss could autoswitch with sinister / mut based on range
    same with kick & deadly throw based on range

    redirect shouldnt even exist, combo points on rogue like monk

    thats 5 buttons gone
    Last edited by bt4; 2013-08-20 at 02:59 PM.

  3. #23
    I think prep could be removed with vanish put on a double charge like roll. The expose armor effect can just be tacked on eviscerate/envenom. Shocked that so many people don't like pickpocket. Pickpocket is a good source of gold if you use it. As for shadow walk, I think the glyph to increase stealth detection needs to be part of the ability.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Rogue buttons bloat derives a lot from the fact we have a lot of tools for PvE only and also a lot of things for PvP only. If i think at what i never use my thoughts go immediately to:
    - expose armor
    - pickpocket
    - shadow walk
    These abilites have no room in the game imho.
    But you WOULD use expose armor if you needed to. Are you saying that it's an ability that should still be in the game, but just rogues shouldn't have it? I guess you could buff us by putting it on a rotational move if you kept it, but it even has side use as a low energy way to make combo points- say, if you want to recuperate, or if the mob doesn't take damage at the moment but you want a pool of them.

    Pick pocket is disdained by some players and really liked by others. It's also a very good call for a stealth bar move. I macrod mine to evasion, so that evasion shows up in shadowmeld or shadow dance, and pickpocket in actual stealth.

    Why don't you use shadow walk?


    Also Prep is a bad mechanic, it needs to be removed - makes the cooldowns availability too binary.
    I just don't get the hate for prep. It's such a selling point of the class.


    As for the rest, i think we just need to make some spells spec specific so the overall number will still be high, but in fact every spec has a reduced number of buttons to care of. Also something like kidney shot could be redesigned like Storm Bolt, that does some damage and stuns or does a lot of damage on stun immune targets - so the same ability have its uses in PvE AND PvP.

    Well, you could do kidney shot a lot of ways. As long as it takes 5 combo points, though, it would have to do more damage than a 5 combo point evis or envenom to be worth using, which would change it pretty dramatically. Alternatively, it could stop using combo points and use energy (or nothing) and simply be worth pressing on cooldown on its own. But in both of these cases, we now have a powerful move used rotationally with a cooldown- something the devs haven't wanted to give us, as it is normally a feature found in the classes whose resources ARE short cooldowns (rets and enhancement are big on this).



    Expose Armor: Between crippling poison and pvp 2-set, glyph of debilitation is worthless. Instead of finishers making a slow, why not use the glyph to make finishers cast weakened armor and remove expose armor. Then rogues can bring the debuff without any personal dps cost and it frees up a button.
    What it does is let you have a physical snare. But like, NO ONE uses it.

    But it's becoming glyph of recovery in the patch (20% extra healing from everything but recuperate, whenever recuperate is active):
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=42961

    Distract: While nice, it's not really necessary. It's really only flavorful--The legendary dagger quests will also need to be made trivial (since smart use of distract is one of the keys to the stealth parts). But keeping abilities for the sake of flavor and old content is not prudent. Get rid of it.
    Do you guys really not use distract? There's multiples of you? This move is great in pvp, good in arena, and very solid in battlegrounds. It's not being kept for old content. Goodness. Who wants this game to become guild wars 2?

    I macro pickpocket to all my openers and have autoloot turned on so it's basically like this for me anyway.
    It's kind of dorky that you have to macro that, I agree. But there are rogues who just run around pickpocketting. You can try it- it's not the worst way to spend your wow time from a gold perspective, even if it won't make you rich. But it's flavorful and cool. I macro mine to only show up when stealthed (and otherwise to be evasion, such as in shadow dance).

    Prep: Cds that reset cds are a big time, bad perpetrator of ability bloat.
    Again with more prep hate. Don't you find it great when you prep at the right time and it's awesome? And don't you like forcing lesser rogues in arena into using prep at the wrong time?


    Lockboxes need to go away, they are a giant pain in the butt and don't add anything but a mailbox full of annoyance for me.
    It does feel a bit forced, but I think it's nice to have a thing only rogues can do. It's not as cool as the mage portals or the lock summons, but I really think they put effort into lockboxes right now- they sometimes have other lockboxes, which is quite kind of them, and they can have a variable number of things in them. I dunno. I clear them out once a week, glyphing pick lock for a little bit to open up all the lockboxes for my guildies and mail them back.

    Stealth mirrors for abilities: This is a vestige of older times. Lots of classes have abilities that behave differently based on spec or stance. There's no reason to have stealth activate another bar. Just bake them into the same button. Ambush = dispatch/backstab (remove positional requirement). Sap = gouge. Garrote = rupture. Cheap shot = kidney shot. You would never use the out of stealth version of these if you could use the stealth version. There are more examples I could come up with... Distract and blind are another potential example (though admittedly more of a stretch).

    This idea I don't hate. I don't like it either, but with some finesse this could be a winner.

    Ambush is vestigial. I wouldn't mind them making it actually good, but pretend that EVERY builder became ambush when you were stealthed. Ambush here would change a bit by spec- it would apply revealing strike, have a chance to proc dispatch, and not cost an army's worth of energy. It would be worth pressing. More importantly, it would be a passive that says "your ss/dispatch/hemo becomes ambush when stealthed", and it would never be wrong to press it.

    Sap and gouge I actually have on the same keybind (5), and this actually fucks me over about twice per pvp season, because I can't gouge when dancing and sometimes I need to. Full time pvp rogues have different binds and never have this problem. I made a macro to make it be sap when stealthed and gouge when dancing, and then I had the opposite problem, but failing to sap a blind or fear seemed more costly. So I can say that it would be a pvp nerf if it happened. Do we want that button space that bad as a class? Would we want the moves combined in some way- say, the button is called sap, and if used on an out of combat target it did the 8 second disable, and if used on an in combat disable, the 4 second one? How would you like it to work with the cooldown and energy cost?

    Garrote being a builder makes it a lot less vestigial than ambush. I would actually like a full duration garrote to be more damage than an ambush- it's a dot, right? In any event, I think a good solution would be "your revealing/mutilate/backstab becomes garrote when stealthed". The silence is clutch.

    Cheap Shot / Kidney Shot is interesting because I ran a stealth bar with no kidney shot up until shadow dance was a thing. At that point I way too often found myself in a situation where I had plenty of combo points, or was energy starved, and I wanted to kidney shot, but couldn't. I eventually just made a second bind for kidney, just for use with sub. It really needs to be able to access kidney shot when dancing.

    Remove wound poison, and if desired bake it into deadly. The devs have already mentioned they regret giving so many other classes an MS effect, and ours is a straight DPS loss to use.
    I don't think they regret giving ROGUES an MS. I think it's a problem when it becomes too common. If just rogues and warriors brought it, that would probably be ok. Remember this effect isn't like 50% any more.


    * Tricks is... weird. It still has use on a few fights (Tortos bats comes to mind), but in 10 man situations you often need to glyph it to make it worth it.
    * TotT: Crap skill, nuff said
    Tricks of the Trade - it used to be great utility CD in Wrath, now it's just weird DPS cooldown thats nothing else but annyoing, fix it or remove it
    You should never glyph tricks. That glyph is a trap. Would you glyph your sinister strike to deal 2% less damage? Tricks is a dps button and is really good in any raid- you put it on whomever is doing the most dps.

    Many rogues argue for a button that provides decent damage on a short cooldown. Tricks is already that button to a degree. Are you guys all playing recount, or WoW? Tricks does a lot of damage and feel good. I suggest you try out the Trick or Treat addon, which tells you and your target how much damage you did with your tricks.


    Maybe you guys rerolled in 4.3?
    I just think they don't pvp much? I don't understand why they would want to lose good situational buttons that are great when you land them. But remember- they are going along with the OPs request. It was, if you HAVE to lose five buttons. Still though.


    Shadow walk: really??? Shadow walk should be redesigned and work as a temporary stealth on a [put number here] seconds cooldown, just like vanish but lasting only 5 seconds... with this change subterfuge and cloak and dagger could see some utility with muti and combat too...
    Wait, we aren't stealthed enough in pvp yet?

    Ok, but seriously. SO MANY of you say you don't use this skill. Do you really not? If not, why not? Doesn't this skill really calm you down when you are on, say, the bridge arena, and you know the enemy stealther is nearby and you can use it for a few seconds of very likely to not be opened on? Don't you run around with it active spamming an acquire target / sap macro when attacking a node? When an enemy rogue jumps down to mine and stealths midair, don't you wait three seconds and use it? Why is no one using this amazing metastealth button EVER?


    Crimson Tempest: Pathetic dmg for mut and combat, only viable for sub with heavy mastery build
    What if it did the damage it should? Like what if you saw four targets and were like "YEA TEMPEST TIME"?


    Care to elaborate on your grievances?
    Honestly, I get where he's coming from. It is just baffling that people could have issues with flavorful and clutch rogue moves.



    Slice and Dice - Just not exciting however you look at it.
    So, combat's rotation would just literally be 2s and 3s, with a 4 every twenty or so seconds? I think slice and dice could go away or be made passive for mutilate. It adds something to every other specs rotation, and of course it is very powerful, and part of why rogues are weapon masters- they can attack really fast, and you have to maintain that mastery.


    I'd merge Gouge and Kick (interrupts cast and incapacitates for 4s)
    Oh, man, that would be AWFUL in pvp. RMP would be FUCKED. It would probably also be OP in solo to have a free move do that disable. This would be terrible. Game would need a rework to make something like this happen.


    We are supposed to be the masters of stealth, yet we hardly ever use it once combat starts (except for a second to vanish and get a cheap ambush off). Why not focus our "flavor" into something like returning into stealth mid-combat?
    Like... shadow dance?




    If you had to kill buttons theres plenty of other canditates,
    i would put expose armor into eviscerate , remove dispatch and add the proc as backstab from any position with bonus damage

    shuriken toss could autoswitch with sinister / mut based on range
    same with kick & deadly throw based on range

    redirect shouldnt even exist, combo points on rogue like monk

    thats 5 buttons gone
    ^LIKE^


    This, thank you. Much better than "how can we shit all over rogues", which I guess is what everyone else was working on!

    I think at least one rogue spec should get combo points on the rogue. In any case, once that option is available, redirect is not that necessary.

  5. #25
    This thread IS great evidence of how the blues say they make changes and make some people happy and some pissed. I'll admit I haven't done much rogue PvP (but I'm not entirely unfamiliar, as I used to do arenas quite frequently on my pally), so I can see some of the arguements. Obviously what some people consider flavor, others consider bloat.

    That being said, I feel like a lot of you who say "we don't have enough abilities" or "they add flavor" should really try out a few other games. Pick up a free trial of SW:TOR or GW2. GW2 is an esport and only has 10 active ability buttons, 5 of which are determined by your equipped weapon type. And you know what? It's incredibly fun. My first thought coming back to WoW after trying many other games? Holy F*** what am I supposed to bind all this crap to!!! There is so much bloat... a lot of abilities are there and ultimately not needed from a gameplay perspective, but blizzard made them such a niche that at some point FOUND a way to force them. Just because you can find a situation where an ability is useful 1% of the time doesn't justify its existence.

    Additionally, CC in WoW is all kinds of F***tarded. Look at any other serious PvP style game, and show me one that has as many CC abilities over 3 seconds. The whole concept of a CC break is itself a terrible, poorly thought out addition specifically because CC was, in the first place, out of control in this game. Rather than lower the duration of CC's across the board, they put in a hamfisted solution which is STILL killing the PvP community. Now you can have TWO CC break trinkets? Plus some racials? I admit merging something like kick and gouge is a stretch, but there are too many buttons to press that are only used in a tiny percentage of situations. Lets just take an example. Imagine a world where you didn't have the option of picking blind, but a mage had to chose between frost nova and polymorph. This is my point. They are necessary because they were MADE necessary in a massive, tangled web of poor decision. If you start from the top and simply across the board, then balance issues become easier to solve as well. Why not give each class just one CC, remove the concept of CC breaks, and reduce their duration in PvP wholesale? To compensate, lower damage relative to HP. Think how many problems that would solve. Instead, now, it's a chess match. Poly'd? Trinket. Frost Nova? Cloak. Damage cooldown? Vanish/Evasion. It's just an annoying jumble of cool-down chess.

    EDIT: Before I get reamed for being a fanboy of other games or wanting WoW to clone them, I'm just pointing out what other, successful games have accomplished. # of buttons =/= quality of game. Unfortunately, as WoW ages, just like any piece of code, you need to go back and refactor (reorganize) based on new changes you've made to optimize. They've removed some bloat, but not nearly as much as they've added. And the important thing is, they realize this. Our opinions will likely have little impact on what gets actually removed. They have ways of determining exactly how much each ability is used in each facet of the game. They likely won't remove an ability that is almost never used in raids but used often in PvP (or the reverse).
    Last edited by zurm; 2013-08-20 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #26
    Here is what it comes down to for ability bloat. I like pickpocket. I like distract. I actually use both. But they are superfluous and flavorful and items like that are first candidates for removal. It's not "prep hate." It's not "pick pocket hate." It's "can the rogue keep its toolkit and rotation while somehow removing this button (even if supporting changes need to be made like double charge vanish and shorter cd dismantle for prep, or passive pickpocket, or glyphed finishers for expose, etc). If you want to trim the fat, you need to step back and say "do I REALLY need this?" regardless of how attached to the ability you happen to be. If there is anything that describes people it's that they are rarely ever honest with themselves when it comes to things they like/dislike and they will search for ANY way to justify their beliefs. It's called cognitive dissonance.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-08-20 at 04:51 PM.

  7. #27
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Both Pickpocket and Picklock could be preserved without them being "active abilities" anymore. Example:

    - If you sap a target, you can right-click it, opening their pocket's loot window. (It becomes more tedious, but it's also more flavourful that some lame pickpocket-ambush macro)

    - Right clicking a locked door/picklock automatically opens it.

  8. #28
    @zurm
    some like the chess match.

    I played through gw2 story and enjoyed it but in terms of combat i prefer having more abilities and therefore a challenge in decision making
    With only a few abilities noone can make a mistake, it gets boring longterm if its too easy and you have no goal to improve.
    Some games are fine with few buttons but they offer other challenges like twitch combat that needs aiming (fps) or simply quick reaction (street fighter).
    Last edited by bt4; 2013-08-20 at 05:09 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    @zurm
    some like the chess match.
    Without a doubt, there is fun to be had in that kind of combat. Unfortunately, it often devolves very early into a season into a prescribed reaction set for your comp. Once you just start doing things from memory, is the "chess" challenge really there anymore?

    Again though, to each their own. This thread IS about personal opinions after all. I am NOT saying anyone is wrong, but merely trying to express my point of view. I feel like WoW could use some simplification (in terms of number of abilities, not mechanics), and apparently the developers do too.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    You should never glyph tricks. That glyph is a trap. Would you glyph your sinister strike to deal 2% less damage? Tricks is a dps button and is really good in any raid- you put it on whomever is doing the most dps.

    Many rogues argue for a button that provides decent damage on a short cooldown. Tricks is already that button to a degree. Are you guys all playing recount, or WoW? Tricks does a lot of damage and feel good. I suggest you try out the Trick or Treat addon, which tells you and your target how much damage you did with your tricks.
    Nah, this is not the problem. It's the silly bi-polar nature of this ability. It is (or at least used to be) a great utility cooldown. Not only for those oh-shit moments when tank died and one could easily save a healer from raging adds, but it was also quite common to build whole boss strategies around it. But at the same time, it increases damage. This creates really uncomfortable gameplay where you have to constantly decide if you give up your utility button for the next 30 seconds or sacrifice some of your damage "just in case".

    Now it's even worse when you have to decide before a fight for which part will be you Tricks optimized and glyph accordingly.

    Granted, this comes from a 10-man PvE perspective where actions and responsibility of a single raider are significantly higher. And I might be still somewhat annoyed by Cata GCD/energy capping issues where energy-free and damage-boosted Tricks felt really retarded.


    EDIT: This is the very same reason why I don't like that Vanish increases DPS for Combat. This spec has nothing to do with stealth so it feels kinda artificial. And it was one of those details that made individual specs more distinct - Subtlety uses Vanish as a core cooldown triggering Find of Weakness, Combat has it free for utility purposes. Now it just another thing to press every time it's ready for a small overall DPS increase.
    Last edited by Fae; 2013-08-20 at 05:39 PM.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster OneSent's Avatar
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    I actually don't have too many problems with the amount of abilities we have as a rogue class. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we save actionbar space and keybinds since many of our abilities are only usable from Stealth. My keybind setup is far more comfortable on my rogue than any of the other classes I've dabbled in.

    But, that doesn't mean we can't stand to lose a few things. I will definitely agree with those in favor of scrapping Tricks of the Trade. It was a cool utility ability in Wrath as it helped immensely with tank threat, but now that tank threat is laughably no longer an issue, it has simply become an annoying ability that we use on cooldown to buff someone else in the raid's damage. And I am getting so sick and tired of people whining about someone else getting tricks over them. The ability has just become a headache.

    I'm also in favor of them scrapping Preparation. This cooldown was vital when our Sprint, Vanish and Evasion were on 3-5 min cooldowns (and don't forget it was limited to only one spec). But now, there really is no need since all of those cooldowns will be 1-2 mins. Not worth it.

    I suppose Shiv has really lost it's purpose too, at least for me. I used it all the time in TBC in PvP as basically a hamstring for crippling poison. But I can't remember the last time I've actually used it in PvP or PvE.

    And for fuck's sake just scrap Redirect already and tweak the UI a little to have combo points generated on us. There is absolutely no valid argument anyone can come up with to suggest otherwise. If they were already thinking of removing the cooldown from Redirect through a glyph, then that means we would have been 1 GCD away from combo points being on us instead of the target anyways. But if the ability has to stay, at the very least, take it off the damn GCD.

    I'm sure there are more abilities I could add to this list, but I'm not in-game right now and just going off the top of my head.

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire themightysven's Avatar
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    looking through these suggestions, does anyone here play more than one spec? they all seem to be I'm Sub, so let's get rid of Ass abilities or I'm Ass, so let's get rid of Sub abilities. and not just like oh, abilities, but integral parts of the rotation...

    you wanna drop something that's annoying, and part of every rogue's tool kit? make S'n'D a Passive that kicks in on your first Finisher, and is updated every finisher after that.
    Ewok Sith Lords are all about Agility

  13. #33
    @Shadow
    Yeah, I realize not all of mine would actually remove a button. It still lowers the total number of different abilities a rogue can gain access to (even if you cant have access to some of them at the same time).

    To address some of the comments:
    Envenom - Yes, its better than evis. They serve the same purpose though so I don't see a point in both. Just make it give you the proc chance buff when used as assassination. You can increase the buff's power to balance the dd part not ignoring armor (which at the same time makes managing envenom uptime more important to our dps which would be nice as thats one of the few thing you can min/max)

    Dispatch - There is absolutely no reason mut can't proc a free backstab instead of dispatch. You can also (and should) restore hemo to the main sub ability and then you can buff backstab to adjust assassination's execute without messing with anything else.

    Shadow walk - Yes, the use of the ability is to use against stealthers. But it is tedious and I am far, far, far less concerned about being found in stealth by another rogue than I am about being hit out of stealth by a warlock's gigantic RoF.

    Tricks - Varian if you want it to be used for that, then they at least need to take the threat part off. You are just re-purposing an ability to gain some use out of it after it became worthless for its intended purpose. To me, that doesn't sound like an ability we really need to keep.

  14. #34
    I absolutely love tricks of the trade. Mostly because it lets me live when I'm in a situation with a retarded derp derp tank who doesn't know how to threat and allows me to control my threat a lot better which 99% of the time in a decent raiding guild it's not a problem it's still something that I use before every pull on the tank. It's nice for trash too when a tank is trying to grab aggro on multiple targets.

    Expose armor doesn't have too much of a place anymore. Most situations have that covered by someone else anyways. I really do like it's resigned use those makes it so much easier to keep up if you do need to put it up. Expose armor being baked into evis/envenom would be awesome though. Also I think it's more useful in like a pvp or brawlers guild scenario not inside raids.

    Pretty sure that everyone who doesn't like the stealth talents like shadow walk and shroud of concealment don't pvp at all.

    People saying dispatch is button bloat and to just use backstab are missing the due to the fact that it replaces backstab so you can't have both buttons at once it's just a renamed ability for a different spec there's no "bloat" at all.

    Crimson tempest is crap. Even for non-assassination classes it's just bad. It fills a role that is needed with combat/sub needing an aoe finisher it just needs to be better designed and not be crap.

    Pick pocket is really cool. Doesn't really add to button bloat since most people's stealth action bar isn't full anyways unless your sub for shadow dance. But, it's such an iconic rogue ability that's 100% a solo ability but it adds some depth and flavor the the class that no one else has anything remotely like.

    Lock pick... eh. With the removal of keys for dungeons it lost a lot of flavor to me and now just kinda relegates us to peoples lock box opening bitches. One of my biggest pet peeves is people who just randomly open trade and put a lock box up there for me to open without even asking first. Don't get me wrong I don't mind if it's for someone who asks or tips (free gold is pretty cool) and it's really easy to do it's just the people who don't even say anything and expect me to do something for them for free that get on my nerves... ass holes!

    Slice N Dice should be removed for assassination and either baked in or compensated for. 99% of the fights out there we put it up with a low cp finisher and evis keeps it up for the rest of the fight so aside from that 1 button push at the start it's pretty useless. And glyphed out questing/dailies it's the same thing. Put up SnD/recoup and every time you kill something it refreshes... which is actually pretty nice for questing and I like but SnD for assassination is just kinda bleh since envenom maintains it for us.

    Distract is really awesome even in raids. Say there's a pathing mob that needs to be killed at a certain time but your raid just isn't ready right yet. Use Distract to keep it in place for a few seconds. I remember back in the mount hyjal days going up with the rest of the rogues to keep the bosses chain distracted while the rest of the raid buffs/heals/manas/resses up. That's some pretty damn strong raid utility right there! Outdated but still serves a purpose especially in PvP.

    I think a big thing that a lot of people kinda don't get with abilities is that aside from something like crimson tempest with is a stupid ability to begin with a lot of abilities that people consider bloat actually have an awesome purpose either in pvp or pve and I get the feeling that a lot of people only focus on one aspect of the game. Sure they might add bloat if all you do is pve but if you took out a lot of abilities that don't get used in raids then that'd really suck for pvpers out there who use them all the time.

    Personally I just don't think rogues have a button bloat problem like other classes do. Hunters are ridiculous for button bloat and even paladins and shaman are up there with all their utility stuff. Druids can be as well but rogues are pretty decent over all right now for button space.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    I absolutely love tricks of the trade. Mostly because it lets me live when I'm in a situation with a retarded derp derp tank who doesn't know how to threat and allows me to control my threat a lot better which 99% of the time in a decent raiding guild it's not a problem it's still something that I use before every pull on the tank. It's nice for trash too when a tank is trying to grab aggro on multiple targets.
    The only raids I do that aren't guild raids are LFR. I can tank an LFR boss for quite a while and its probably the most fun I'll have that run. I tricks a dps on the pull with 0 issues in our raids. Tricksing trash might be nice for the tank... but then I don't get to tank one... though they will get it back because honestly tanks shouldnt have an issue holding a larger group of trash because once they get hit a couple of times, they have enough vengeance that they can get everything back.

    Dispatch is still bloat even if you are using your definition (in mine, I would go by total ability list for the whole class to determine what the bloat abilities are but whatever). You remove dispatch, give them cata backstab (can be tuned to hit hard like dispatch), and then remove backstab from sub. Bam, sub now has 1 less ability that it has only really had to use recently and can go back to its iconic cp builder.

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire
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    What do you think about redesigning Tricks like this:
    In 5 secs after the cast, 15% of the damage dealt by a target party or raid member is also dealt to your enemy target (if available) counting as your damage for 6 seconds.

    That way it will still be an increase to damage, but with more visible results for the right person (the rogue).

  17. #37
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    What do you think about redesigning Tricks like this:
    In 5 secs after the cast, 15% of the damage dealt by a target party or raid member is also dealt to your enemy target (if available) counting as your damage for 6 seconds.

    That way it will still be an increase to damage, but with more visible results for the right person (the rogue).
    Recount/WoL isn't a part of WoW, they don't need to cater to WoL heroes.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    remove dispatch and add the proc as Backstab from any position with bonus damage
    They already have this. IT'S CALLED DISPATCH. May be an issue if a spec could have both Backstab and Dispatch, but that's not a thing. Number of buttons remains identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    The truth of the matter is, you have no proof for this and are just generating facts.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    That being said, I feel like a lot of you who say "we don't have enough abilities" or "they add flavor" should really try out a few other games. Pick up a free trial of SW:TOR or GW2.
    GW2 I wanted nothing to do with, mostly based on their ability evisceration. I want a character that feels like she's in the actual game world- her interaction with that world should be much broader than just 10 skills. I want cool powers.

    SWTOR I like and play lightly, but it has a lot of buttons as well- and the ones it is missing, I generally miss. Over there, I play a scoundrel. Scoundrel Verain has three specs to pick from- one is like a dot based spec, one is kind of like a subtlety retribution paladin, and the last is like a resto han solo.

    But, the class is closest to the WoW rogue class when specced scrapper, which is all I'll discuss. It has cloak, and vanish. It was the source for mass stealth and shadow walk, both of which are very useful over there (AND HERE!!!). I miss having a stealth bar, because "Shoot First" (Ambush) and "Back Blast" (Backstab) should be the same button, and they are not. I have like healing touch, and then like regrowth, and some super weak healing scan that is useless unless you spec resto, and instead of combo points there's a holy power equivalent. But the builder moves all have cooldowns. There's like shadow word: pain, and you get a couple mild bonuses for having it on your target. For finishers I have a punch, which is stronger than all my explosives and blaster moves somehow, and an aoe shot where I pew pew a cone pretty decently. So every spec there manages to have crimson tempest. The main builder is Blaster Whip, and if you don't have anything good to press you can press Quick Shot, which is crazy weak, and even weaker is Blaster Volley. The class has a roll, which is FUCKING BALLERRRRR, and also has a strange bomb you can throw that costs a lot of energy but doesn't hit that hard (it knocks down really weak enemies when questing though).

    And you know what I constantly miss? Prep.


    In any event, the scoundrel doesn't quite fill up all the bars my rogue does- but it is goddamned close, and scoundrel Verain is much less able to interact with her environment than real Verain. SWTOR in particular is silly to point at for button bloat, because you not only have pet buttons to worry about everywhere but battlegrounds and raids, you have a special cooldown that ONLY works when you have your pet (companion) active, and you unlock other abilities that only work during this cooldown- up to like 8 of them or something. PLUS I can "take cover" and then I can throw this really weak explosive charge, and do a "charged burst". So I have those buttons too, and you literally don't even use them (it's like if rogues had steady shot and arcane shot, but they hit for a small fraction of the hunter versions, because when you rolled a "Runter" you hadn't chosen your path yet).

    If anything, SWTOR is a more "bloated" game than WoW on buttons, because it has many similar buttons that are mostly superflous.


    Just because you can find a situation where an ability is useful 1% of the time doesn't justify its existence.

    I don't feel that is forced. What is a 1% button to you?

    Additionally, CC in WoW is all kinds of F***tarded.
    I'm not going to really go into this, but I will tell a story and do a once-over. In general, I tend to agree. In the current game, there's too much CC. After flipping out in the last post when someone listed "hey, kick should both kick AND disorient", it occurred to me that it probably isn't intuitive to a non-arena player why that's horrible (you would fuck up the disorient DR every time you wanted to kick, so a mage couldn't poly a target within 18 seconds after you kicked). Other games have pretty bad solutions though. They either don't have CC, or have really only one "school".

    Ancedote: In SWTOR, I was in a warzone (battleground), and this guy had joined with his friends. I was specced healing. The game was Huttball, an awful thing that I hope never gets copied in WoW, and the only warzone in that game that is utter crap. In Huttball, you use another ability (bloat?) called "throw the huttball", which is present is your ability list forever and only can be used in Huttball, and only when you HAVE the Huttball. In any event, this guy was leading, and told everyone not to CC the enemy ball carrier (the leader can deathgrip him into the insta-kill fire, which is something else WoW doesn't fucknig need). The rotworms (imperials, other team) had the ball, and they were about to score. I was up healing the D, and the team lead was trying to position himself to grip the ballcarrier into the fire, which was about to spawn. What he didn't see was an enemy right on the goal line sprint into position. Now all the ballcarrier had to do was throw the huttball and it was a guaranteed score. So, I used flashbang on him (blind) and rolled into position to intercept. NOW if he threw it, I would probably catch it.

    The allied team lead FLIPPED. HIS. SHIT. He didn't see WHY I did what I did. He was focused on his dumb target, and was INFURIATED now that the guy was immune to CC. I explained what happened, but he was not relieved at all- he had it ALL PLANNED OUT in his head.

    Now, you could take a lesson about watching the map, or whatever. Or, you could wonder why his ability to grip a target would be so decimated by my entirely unrelated short duration (because dots) CC. As far as he was concerned, I was trolling him.

    I don't think the CC solutions in other games are that good, to be honest. I think WoW's is not that bad compared to the competition, and we still get to actually HAVE CCs. But, overall, it's a mess of CC, and we all kinda know that.



    Why not give each class just one CC, remove the concept of CC breaks, and reduce their duration in PvP wholesale?
    I don't want to have only one CC.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    Recount/WoL isn't a part of WoW, they don't need to cater to WoL heroes.
    I actually think that they do. Look, we both know that tricks is rogue damage. But how many people don't? I've had legitimately good rogues argue this with me before too. The fact that it's not recorded as gold damage really makes people get confused. They think the map is the territory, and I'm definitely afraid the devs will remove the move based on this negative feedback. I'd much rather keep the move and have the bookkeeping updated.

    Envenom - Yes, its better than evis. They serve the same purpose though so I don't see a point in both.
    But no rogue spec HAS both. It's not like you can even eviscerate as assassination (which pisses me the fuck OFF by the way, because I lost my ability to execute death knights in their dumb little green shell with eviscerate regardless of spec). And the ability to ignore armor is very important whenever I'm on an armored target, and none of the other specs get it. Why does this bother you? You already don't have both!

    Dispatch - There is absolutely no reason mut can't proc a free backstab instead of dispatch.
    Ok, but then you deleted dispatch and added backstab. You haven't saved any buttons again. Plus you added ass-fetishism back into the ONE rogue spec that FINALLY managed to not have positional requirements (spree is combat's). Then you shrunk the energy bar. Who on earth liked assassination more in Cata than on live? Did you really enjoy spamming that stupid backstab on Maloriak, a 60 energy move that gave you back 30, and the moment the boss turned such that his back was in lava you had to revert to mutilate rotation really fast? Was that better?

    Dispatch is a MUCH better solution. And again, Mutilate doesn't have ACCESS to backstab.

    Shadow walk - Yes, the use of the ability is to use against stealthers. But it is tedious and I am far, far, far less concerned about being found in stealth by another rogue than I am about being hit out of stealth by a warlock's gigantic RoF.
    That's more a problem with the enormous RoF, which is becoming a cooldown next patch. But in either case, you already have many solutions to RoF- you can sprint out of range of the lock, you can move forward to open on him, relying on subterfuge to keep you stealthed, and you can shadow step directly to him or a friend. I can often sap a healer and cheap shot open the lock even in the middle of a huge rain of fire. I'm not saying that it should be that huge, but we clearly have more tools here than vanilla.

    But I really like the metastealth tool. It's cool.


    You are just re-purposing an ability to gain some use out of it after it became worthless for its intended purpose.
    Tricks has always been a damage cooldown. Many of the times we have been able to pump it up with set bonuses and glyphs. The aggro part is nice, but it has never mattered past either the pull or a certain mob situation (and ranged mobs always have to be handled by hunters).


    And spell my name right! Varian tried to get my name, but he's an LK reroll and he had to take a close version when they added him to the game.

  20. #40
    i think you guys are missing the main reason they removed backstab from assassination
    they can buff backstab without buffing assassination same thing for envenom
    can nerf eviscerate without touching assassination etc

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