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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    So you basically want Pick Lock to be passive. That's fine, its presence as a button isn't that interesting. Much like detect traps became passive, and at some point I didn't have to press 'disarm trap' anymore either. These are just rogue abilities that work for free now.

    But, bear with me a moment- what if Pick Lock required you to solve a randomly generated puzzle? Maybe one that actually takes a bit of time to solve. I bet you'd get a tip for picking a lock! Of course, you'd have to fix the smithing and engineering things to not just be better than the rogue one.
    Yea, I'm pretty much suggesting that Pick Lock should be passive. I probably should have moved it into the "Not bloat, but needs reworking" list. On your suggestion, you have to take into consideration that you sometimes have several locked boxes. Will it be a hazzle to play a mini-game then? If you're only going to get a worthless green item each time you lock pick a box, then I'd rather just have it the way it is. However, if the rewards were better, like trade goods for example, then it could work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    On the subject of the bloat question - in response to the above - abilities you use "not that often" you don't REALLY need a convenient bind for, do you? Do you have a special bind for shadow walk in PvE? Shiv, across general content? They have a place, and that place isn't really covered by something else, nor do we have SO MANY BUTTONS that it's problematic and they need to combine existing abilities (imo).
    I agree with you, and I actually find convenient room for nearly all Rogue abilities on my hotkeys, personally. The few ones I don't have hotkeyed are the ones that fall in the category you mention. I think the Rogue class is super awesome, and as you see most of the abilities I mention aren't up for removal, just some reworking, as you say.

    I intentionally left out abilities unique to Combat and Subtlety as I haven't played those specs this expansion. Revealing Strike could use a mention, but for me personally it's more that I don't find the ability fun. I left out talent abilities also. Talent abilities are hard to discuss. On a tier you might have 1 passive and 2 activated abilities. You could choose the passive ability, but as the expansion unfolds we find out that one of the two activated abilities usually wins out in most areas. Thus you start feeling you should take it. The lvl 30 and 60 tier comes to mind, although I can make good points for why Combat Readiness isn't bloat, and Shadowstep is super fun.

    Going forward, imagine if Anticipation became baseline and they added an activated ability in its place. That's another ability to our hotkeys, along with whatever abilities they give us the next expansion. I'm concerned how it's going to unfold.

  2. #62
    Threads like these are the reason why Blizzard is removing fun abilities. I like my pick pocket and distract. Keep it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexotron View Post
    Threads like these are the reason why Blizzard is removing fun abilities. I like my pick pocket and distract. Keep it.
    I think a better solution is to simply turn a lot of these cosmetic/non-combat skills into glyphs instead; thereby freeing up bars and trimming some of the fat from the spellbook. A lot of skills (like Pick Lock) could also be made passive. There are already a few glyphs to this effect; Paladins get Contemplation for example, a spell from a glyph that is entirely cosmetic.
    In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers, we are not simply protecting their trivial old age, we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    I think a better solution is to simply turn a lot of these cosmetic/non-combat skills into glyphs instead; thereby freeing up bars and trimming some of the fat from the spellbook. A lot of skills (like Pick Lock) could also be made passive. There are already a few glyphs to this effect; Paladins get Contemplation for example, a spell from a glyph that is entirely cosmetic.
    Just leave it in the spell book. Who cares. It's a cosmetic ability, you don't need it. How about organizing spell books/letting us search in them?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    I think a better solution is to simply turn a lot of these cosmetic/non-combat skills into glyphs instead; thereby freeing up bars and trimming some of the fat from the spellbook. A lot of skills (like Pick Lock) could also be made passive. There are already a few glyphs to this effect; Paladins get Contemplation for example, a spell from a glyph that is entirely cosmetic.

    Good grief, I have to spend a goddamned GLYPH to distract? THAT'S PROGRESS IN YOUR UNIVERSE?

    Rogues have swirly ball glyph, which is the only cosmetic glyph we need. We can also make a temporary love doll when we vanish (single use).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lexotron View Post
    Just leave it in the spell book. Who cares. It's a cosmetic ability, you don't need it. How about organizing spell books/letting us search in them?
    What if the abilities that were less common were more obscured, or not presented in the exact same format as rotational abilities?

    I actually think we need a BUNCH more abilities. TONS more. But I think that you should have to go out of your way to get them. Like hunters could go find some crazy broad in the barrens who sits in a smoky hut and makes you farm her up some incense, and that teaches you Eyes of the Beast. Then everyone who thinks that is "bloat" or whatever term they are using to try to turn this into Hello Kitty Island Eight Button Adventure can just go not learn it!
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-09-03 at 09:06 PM.

  6. #66
    I know someone who would love to have Hello Kitty Island Eight Button Adventure.
    It's not me though, but my daughter.

    I can't think of one single rogue button i haven't pressed several times last week. Shadow Walk less then others, but i don't PvP. Distract not often too, but i wouldn't miss it. When you need it, you need it. And to make it a threeway, Dismantle was low on my list too, and it#s hard to see it#s effect outside of PvP (which i don't do) but i bet a lot of money i don't have (pickpocketed yet) that lots of people use it often.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I know someone who would love to have Hello Kitty Island Eight Button Adventure.
    It's not me though, but my daughter.

    I can't think of one single rogue button i haven't pressed several times last week.
    I think what this boils down to are people who are used to the WoW method of keybindings versus most other games. WoW started with a ton of keys, and added more... but there are MANY successful games out there that have a very limited number of abilities and are just as, if not more successful than, WoW (LOL/DOTA, GW2) in terms of creating an E-Sport. The only thing WoW really wins over any other game, at the moment, is PVE Raiding. And there is at least one upcoming MMO that's looking to dethrone WoW in that aspect (Wildstar).

    Now we can sit here and argue whether having 40 buttons to press or 10 buttons makes you a pro or n00b, or makes the game good or bad. The fact is it comes down to opinion. WoW is a very old game, and many people (including myself) keep coming back to it because it's familiar, and it just works. So many MMO's out there are plagued with technical issues that hinder otherwise amazing innovations. And generally speaking, a few years down the road, WoW will copy a lot of those features (AoE loot, dodge mechanics like monk roll, phased zones). Why do you guys care so much what other people think? Do you think Blizzard is sitting here looking to axe abilities based on opinion? No. They have numbers, the REAL numbers, that say how much abilities are used. They won't axe an ability just because it's only used in PvE or PvP, but they probably will if it's not used often in general or has clunky mechanics (like Prep, which is a perfect candidate for baking in charges like Roll or Hand of Guldan). Insulting people for posting their opinion and calling them wrong isn't accomplishing anything than making you look like a forum troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by lexotron View Post
    How about organizing spell books/letting us search in them?
    I'm genuinely surprised this hasn't happened yet. The way abilities split between tabs for racials, class, and glyphs is awkward. The achievements UI desperately needs this as well.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    I think what this boils down to are people who are used to the WoW method of keybindings versus most other games.
    Actually, there's plenty of newer games that use this method of abilities that you can bind to functions, and I play them sometimes too. Generally speaking, the goal is to create a character that can interact with their world.


    WoW started with a ton of keys, and added more... but there are MANY successful games out there that have a very limited number of abilities and are just as, if not more successful than, WoW (LOL/DOTA, GW2) in terms of creating an E-Sport.
    Good for those games. From a perspective of getting you into the game world, those games are FUCKING TRASHCAN!

    You get that?

    LoL is a great game. I play and like it. It's very good at what it does, which is BE MOBA. You aren't IN that world. Summoner's Rift has been fought over a zillion times, right? Your characters are well tuned, your build order varied from game to game and role to role. The game is deep, and great, and very competitive.

    And when it comes to getting you into the world? NOTHING. There's no world to get into. It's not a goddamned RPG, and it never tried to be.


    GW2, the limited buttons have received very mixed reviews. I saw that and was like "ok, no game there, ok". Does it mean it's bad? Hell no, it has its fans. But when it comes to being part of the world, it is a pale knockoff of WoW.

    The only thing WoW really wins over any other game, at the moment, is PVE Raiding. And there is at least one upcoming MMO that's looking to dethrone WoW in that aspect (Wildstar).
    I don't think that will happen. I think a lot of people really don't get exactly how well put together WoW raids are versus the competition. Even competent developers who love making raids have a hard time really doing stuff as solid as WoW.

    Now we can sit here and argue whether having 40 buttons to press or 10 buttons makes you a pro or n00b, or makes the game good or bad. The fact is it comes down to opinion.
    No, the ramifications of subtracting buttons are absolute. Games with less buttons have to buy back their skillcap in other ways. Many games rely on extremely low reaction times, for instance, to separate the good from the bad. My reaction times have gone down since my teens, even with constant practice, so I'm going to naturally gravitate towards the games that don't punish me for not being nineteen. The situational use of abilities is very much a thing to expect to find in an RPG, from D&D on forward.

    And generally speaking, a few years down the road, WoW will copy a lot of those features (AoE loot, dodge mechanics like monk roll, phased zones).
    Phased zones worked poorly in previous games and were infuriating in WoW. We don't have dodge mechanics- the monk roll is just a reposition. AoE loot was copied for sure, but so was Shadow Walk and somehow that's bloat even though it's situational and awesome and you can use it to demonstrate your skill over other stealthers.

    Why do you guys care so much what other people think? Do you think Blizzard is sitting here looking to axe abilities based on opinion? No. They have numbers, the REAL numbers, that say how much abilities are used.
    And I hope they get why I use mutilate more than shadow walk, but I want to keep both.

    But, I care what you think because I think anyone making this argument is ultimately really missing out on what the game offers.

    They won't axe an ability just because it's only used in PvE or PvP, but they probably will if it's not used often in general or has clunky mechanics (like Prep, which is a perfect candidate for baking in charges like Roll or Hand of Guldan).
    What is "clunky" about prep? If I can get a rogue to prep early in a match, I'll probably fuck him up. If he just had charges on vanish, then he would still have his second evasion ready to go. If no one had charges on vanish, well, fuck that right in the dick.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-09-03 at 09:22 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    I think what this boils down to are people who are used to the WoW method of keybindings versus most other games. WoW started with a ton of keys, and added more... but there are MANY successful games out there that have a very limited number of abilities and are just as, if not more successful than, WoW (LOL/DOTA, GW2) in terms of creating an E-Sport.
    Just to be clear, there is nothing inherently to be gained by having more or less buttons to press more or less regularly. But WoW has it buttons, the rogue class has its share and i wouldn't want and don't see the need to let any of them go. And i think it's really pushing it to compare WoW to LoL/DotA or even GW2 as they are, in fact, very different from WoW. The former by genre, the latter by design. You don't go ahead and say "I need less tires on my car, as all bicycles can drive with 2!" Unless of course your car has 36 tires on every perceivable side.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  10. #70
    640 tires is enough for anyone.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Just to be clear, there is nothing inherently to be gained by having more or less buttons to press more or less regularly. But WoW has it buttons, the rogue class has its share and i wouldn't want and don't see the need to let any of them go. And i think it's really pushing it to compare WoW to LoL/DotA or even GW2 as they are, in fact, very different from WoW.
    This is how I feel about it; I enjoy League as well, but I wouldn't play 1 character for 10 hours a week on it (personally, although I play it "casually"). That sounds like a nightmare. There isn't enough depth I can see coming from right-clicking, items, and the same four (+two summoner) spells to occupy you by itself for any length of time. League's main focus is on responding to your opponents and interactions between the composition of one team and another, as well as "reading" situations.

    You could argue that WoW arenas (or small BGs?) have some similar elements, but on the grand scale of WoW, you'd need to make the interaction of those 4 buttons (generally 3 frequent, 1 CD, so mostly 3 buttons) REALLY REALLY COMPLEX if you want people to be occupied by it in something like a 25-man raid setting where you're bringing down one big boss. If, for example, combat lost rupture, SnD, and revealing strike, you'd be pretty close: you have auto-attacks, movement, SS, Evis, KS and AR/SB as your options. SS-Evis interaction is not enough to really occupy you. That pushes more emphasis on KS and AR/SB, but they're not really hard to figure out or worth playing with for "optimal" use in most situations either. What you're left with for complexity: what to auto-attack, and where to move?

    WoW's not really a good platform for making those decisions the primary ones. The format just doesn't fit. The additional layers of buffs, several CDs that sometimes align, and a more complex "rotation" focused on pressing buttons frequently fits much better in the engine that's delivering it.



    Having said all of that I don't remember (and can't find at a glance) who brought up having fewer rotational buttons for rogues, in particular. I can't imagine there's a lot more to add on it, but if someone wanted to argue for reduction of # of buttons for rogue specs, you're welcome to debate.

  12. #72
    Well, actually, we do have some people saying "get rid of dispatch" and "envenom is bloat", in this and the other "bloat" thread. But mostly it's people trying to see if there are moves that we don't need, and we really don't have anything like that.

  13. #73
    Mmm, easy: Shadow Walk. Why even invented. Just bake it in baseline or make it trigger automatically for a few seconds after you enter stealth, anything, just get rid of the button.

    Pick lock yeah, could just be a right-click on lockboxes. But it's not on the main bars so not really bloat anyway.

    I support removing Prep and instead giving Vanish, Evasion etc charges. Would be much better.

    Expose Armor... can we just scrap the whole armor debuff? It's either automatically applied or a pain in the ass you never want to apply, depending on your class.

    Redirect - if Blizzard has mercy and puts CPs on the Rogue this would be an easy cut. If not we're stuck with it.

    Would be nice if symbio gave us something better than Growl. But everyone has this button so meh.

    Shiv and Tricks? OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS! Well... I'm Forsaken so... out of my colder, deader hands. Threat may not be an issue but ToT allows a Rogue to assist in the pickup. And grief party members ^_^ Also it's the only thing Rogues have that people actually want... my guildies used to whisper me begging for ToT whenever they were meter slutting (ie every week). It's super fun when you pop it on a geared tank in a big AOE pull at the right time and see massive numbers reported by RSA. And Shiv was redesigned from its old bloaty version to its current position as one of my favourite abilities.

    Dismantle is great, I wish there were more opportunities to use it myself. Also, it is essential if you're trying to get a kill on a Blood DK. Death Strike me now, jerk! You have to be smart with it too, wait until their HP is low and then lock them out of their major heal mechanic. Mistime it and they just heal back up as soon as it wears off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    On the subject of the bloat question - in response to the above - abilities you use "not that often" you don't REALLY need a convenient bind for, do you? Do you have a special bind for shadow walk in PvE?
    This is true, however my stealth bar is pretty crammed full as it is. Of course I could use an addon to get around that... but you shouldn't need to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well, actually, we do have some people saying "get rid of dispatch" and "envenom is bloat", in this and the other "bloat" thread. But mostly it's people trying to see if there are moves that we don't need, and we really don't have anything like that.
    That's silly, although I have to say Envenom is pretty much a different coloured Eviscerate. File that under "spec rotations need more diversity" rather than "bloat" IMO.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Good grief, I have to spend a goddamned GLYPH to distract? THAT'S PROGRESS IN YOUR UNIVERSE?

    Rogues have swirly ball glyph, which is the only cosmetic glyph we need. We can also make a temporary love doll when we vanish (single use).
    I suppose I'd be okay with it if they increase the number of glyph slots like they were talking about. Though I don't see distract being much of a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    I think a better solution is to simply turn a lot of these cosmetic/non-combat skills into glyphs instead; thereby freeing up bars and trimming some of the fat from the spellbook. A lot of skills (like Pick Lock) could also be made passive. There are already a few glyphs to this effect; Paladins get Contemplation for example, a spell from a glyph that is entirely cosmetic.
    Yeah but if you don't like Pick Pocket you don't have to put it on your bars.

    Something like Prep or Redirect is more what I'd consider action bar bloat.
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  14. #74
    So, the ones that keep coming up (by the way):

    Shadow Walk, Shroud of Concealment, Preparation, Shiv, Redirect, Expose Armor.

    I've point by pointed why we can't lose any of these (except Prep as a double charge buff or redirect if they change how CPs work, which is what everyone means when they say it anyway).

    Shadow Walk is interesting because it's a really cool ability borrowed from SWTOR, and it is actually really powerful at its job. Since stealth is actually good in this game (unlike in that game), and because mob packs in this game are cleaved through when they exist but mostly don't even exist (most pulls are solo), whereas in SWTOR almost all pulls are group pulls requiring good positioning, this means that most players aren't used to it, don't bind it, and have no skill with it. Both games use it identically in PvP as well, where it really shines.

    I've said some of this before, else where in this thread and others, but normally people just see the thing, figure "hey, what moves do I not use much in my playstyle" or "what would I like to cash in for buffs to make the class easier" and then list that.

    The point of the move is that you can use it when you think another stealther is around to get the open. This is actually really cool. With this move (glyphed) you can even have a chance to open on a hunter, but the real money is using it to beat another rogue at his own game, or to show a cat who is the actual master of stealth.


    But, I'm sorry not many of you use it that way. There's still no good reason to get rid of it, especially given, you know, we have a stealth bar.

    I've come up with several ideas in this thread to actually compress a couple buttons. For instance, your strikes could all become ambush or garrote when you stealth, and you'd have to make ambush actually always worth using, as well as nonpositional. This would actually help one of the few times in the game that *I* feel I have too many buttons, because I actually have keybinds for hemo and kidney off my main bar for use in shadowdance in arena, and the hemo one feel superflous.


    Expose Armor is a good button, if you like the idea of that debuff. Given how many wild buffs they gave this move, I'm surprised to see it consistently make the list. I have to keep it up half the time in my 10m (often we don't have another who can bring it), and I think it's just fine. It's not all that powerful, but as long as that is a raid debuff, I like it. I wouldn't mind if it got a glyph to be applied some other way (like the fan glyph), but as a cheap combo builder I find it can be useful to put up recuperate or slice during an invincible mob stage or whatever.

    Prep I've done big write ups on before. Power wise, rogues need those extra cooldowns. Execution wise, I think it's cool to have a cooldown that resets cooldowns, and I think it opens the gates for good plays. The first isn't really up for debate- every time they try to push prep away, rogues don't even show up, and many just don't log on. The second I could be wrong on, but understand it would be a large buff to just put two charges on vanish, evasion, dismantle, and sprint. Also note that every disarm has a "perk". The perk for dismantle is the second dismantle.

    Shiv is such a cool move I don't know who doesn't love it. I think the people who say this must ONLY raid, and be in a big enough group that they don't need to use this utility ever (admittedly it is a bit picker than some other classes). In PvP this really shines.

    Shroud is hard to setup, but cool in challenge modes, and VERY strong in arena. If you set it up in world pvp it can also be hilarious, and you can sometimes use it to get your group where they should be (and force competitors to clear mobs to get where you want).

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    So, the ones that keep coming up (by the way):
    No offense Verain, but you are just going in circles. You like Shadow Walk (Prep, ...), we got it! But for some other people it's simply just an artificial obstacle that brings nothing to the game, i.e. bloat. Really, no reason for an overzealous reply every single time when someone dares to mention this ability (or Prep and some other).

    Why can't you just accept that there are people with different viewpoints?

  16. #76
    Rogue abilites aren't that bloated - the fact is that we have a huge toolkit built upon a lot of really strong/useful PvP/arena abilities, and a poor/scarce pool of PvE abilities.

    No wonder all specs in PvE feel the same, we have only 6 moves in total that actually count. If something like Shadow Walk or Shroud or even Kideny Shot had a PvE use, the situation would be a lot better.

    Many people just ask for that abilities to be removed because they don't just use them; we have done pretty well even without them also in PvP without anything of that. they can be the strongest abilities of them all, but they are simply ignored.

    Does that make the difference between a good rogue and a bad one? Probably yes. This doesn't change the fact they are basically useless in any other enviroment that isn't Arena. And since rogues are doing not that well like some seasons ago, people is just moving to other classes.

    Stealth isn't cool anymore. All classes got damage abilities, we got a thing supposed to make out stealth viable in arena. Just bake it in current stealth?

    That's why people don't want these abilities. They may be strong, but they aren't interesting. A strong new ability which is relegated to a single little endgame aspect doesn't simply deliver. People leave the rogue class mid-run because we get all we need for the dps cycle at level 10, and we don't need anything else up to 90 and through all the endgame - only if you pvp you make use of the defensive/control abilities.

    Based on the spec, from 1 to 90 we get 4 active abilities and the rest is all passive. At 60 we get shadowstep or cloak and dagger which is cool and ninja, warriors get a FU***** DRAGON ROAR - not counting nearly every talent they get is a button you have to press, while we have 2 in the entire tree.

    It's fun, because the thing that comes up from this thread is not that we have too many abilities and are are in need of a cleanup, but the fact we have a truckload of abilities that we rarely use or don't have any impact on the game whatsoever.

    Pickpocket is cool, but what's the difference in using it or not? Why the reliance of stealth in arena should be based on a cooldown? Why EA needs to impact our damage while the other classes/specs can apply it automatically?

    In a WoW where the great majority of people runs LFR or plays arena/random BGs to cap valor/conquest, these abilities have simply no place unfortunately. Just to tell, if EA did damage compared to a SS, everyone would use that. If Shadow Walk made your next opener hit for 50% more damage, everyone would use that. That's what these abilities are missing.

    Anyway, this isn't anymore a button bloat argument, but more a "state of the class" one. Everything is tied to our mechanics, like the combo points thread.

  17. #77
    shadowblades

  18. #78
    They need to merge certain abilities and remove others.
    Rupture and Garrote need to be the same ability, only when used from stealth it applies the garrote silence.
    Slice and dice need to be an automatic buff tied to some compopoint builder.
    Recuperate also need to go and/or get baked in to another commonly used skill. It's really no fun keeping rupture, SnD and Recuperate up. Doesn't take skill either.
    Ambush should be removed and backstab should just be modified to provide ambush damage when used from stealth.
    Combo points should be on the player so no need for redirect.
    Gouge and kick should merge. If used when a spell is cast it interrupts and disables if no spell is cast it works same as gouge.
    Remove envenom.
    Bake in expose armor in to eviscerate.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    They need to merge certain abilities and remove others.
    Rupture and Garrote need to be the same ability, only when used from stealth it applies the garrote silence.
    Slice and dice need to be an automatic buff tied to some compopoint builder.
    Recuperate also need to go and/or get baked in to another commonly used skill. It's really no fun keeping rupture, SnD and Recuperate up. Doesn't take skill either.
    Ambush should be removed and backstab should just be modified to provide ambush damage when used from stealth.
    Combo points should be on the player so no need for redirect.
    Gouge and kick should merge. If used when a spell is cast it interrupts and disables if no spell is cast it works same as gouge.
    Remove envenom.
    Bake in expose armor in to eviscerate.
    Are you maybe overwhelmed by the number of buttons your character has?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Are you maybe overwhelmed by the number of buttons your character has?
    in pvp yes in pve no
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

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