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  1. #101

    Rogue Ability Bloat

    So apparently Blizz is going to remove ~20% of abilities in WoD to tone down ability bloat...which rogue abilities do you think should get this axe? Here's my list:

    >Tricks of the Trade - I hate this ability. I specifically picked rogue to avoid buffing others.
    >Preparation - Just bake the effect into the cooldowns already. Not difficult.
    >Revealing Strike - This ability was put in the game just so combat would have another button to press. Not a good reason imo.
    >Slice and Dice - Never been interesting.
    >Shadow Walk - I never use this. I feel like they just slapped it in there to fill some sort of ability quota for mop.
    >Redirect - Combo points should be ON THE ROGUE. meaning this ability would be useless.
    >Expose Armor - I don't even like this mechanic, it's a pain.
    Last edited by Lemons; 2014-02-24 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #102
    There was an old thread here discussing the same thing.

    If people want to add something, i can think of merging to keep the topic alive.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    There was an old thread here discussing the same thing.

    If people want to add something, i can think of merging to keep the topic alive.
    that would be good. Didn't realize there was already a thread on this. My bad.

  4. #104
    The Lightbringer Zka's Avatar
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    Of ambush/backstab/hemo at least one should go. Especially because positional requirements will go away.
    Not sure about SND, at least there is a decision to renew or not, renew with how many CPs when changing target/target is near death. So it's not completely uninteresting.
    Combo points are on the rogue on WoD beta. They are displayed on target but they automatically travel to the new target at all times.

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  5. #105
    Field Marshal Kromus's Avatar
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    I feel they are going to get rid of some abilities that simply don't belong in the rotations anymore.

    There is a good few for rogues that look surplus to requirements.

    Most classes rotation/priorities is
    Rotation 1-4
    CD's 1-3
    Personal defensive CD's 1-2
    Buffs 1
    Raid utility 1-2

    I think a lot of things outside of this , that aren't deemed "fun and specific to the class" will be gone.

  6. #106
    Marged the two threads and bumped the discussion due to new info available making it relevant one more time.

  7. #107
    Well, this title still ticks me off, but whatever.


    The thing is, rogues don't have "bloat". Claiming 20% as a ballpark figure was probably not arrived at, but likely held as a goal. The question really is, do rogues have too many buttons?

    The answer is no.


    Some classes legitimately do. Hunters, for instance, have to keybind a shocking number of abilities to be useful. But even with almost everything but pick lock keybound, I don't feel overwhelmed on my rogue at all.


    The big thing is, many of our abilities are exclusive. For instance, you never are like "ambush or backstab, which is correct for right this second?". Our rotation is set up to be basically:

    Primary Builder
    Conditional Builder
    Dot finisher
    Direct Damage finisher
    Slice and dice

    This is just not bloat by any definition of the word. When you add in our other buttons (cooldowns, all of them) you end up with some thing that have niche use in pvp and pve, but are cool and fun when you get to use them, like shiv.

    In pvp, you add your CC buttons to this mix. The only CC button we have that is a bit silly is gouge.

    What Blizzard had talked about- GC in particular- was that "bloat" doesn't mean "you have a lot of buttons" it is "you have a lot of buttons you feel like you should bind". If they really are removing CCs from classes, you could maybe put blind in this boat- it exists soley to be a powerful CC that can't be wiped away easily- but I doubt that rogues would be recognizable if you stripped off gouge and blind. At that point you'd simply have to be tuned like a frost DK- the damage comes quick and hard and never stops thrusting, and every CC you DO accomplish is a massive threat.


    People complain about prep, and I literally post huge missives about how prep is needed. In fact, by putting a second charge on all the abilities that prep effects, they COULD get rid of it, but this would be a buff to rogues, and honestly would remove one of the more interesting things about playing a rogue. In any event, if you really did double charge sprint, vanish, evasion, and dismantle, you could remove prep. Though it would be lame.

    (for the record, you really can't get rid of that list of four, which has already been stripped down from its once mighty list- even dismantle needs to be in there because that is the perk dismantle offers, as every disarm gets one- you'd only take it out if you were removing or nerfing other disarms)

    Tricks of the trade is not, I don't think, a good button to get rid of. But a lot of rogues seem to hate it. It's personal dps (not raid dps), but recorded under another class. This is so confusing that someone will reply and be like "I really take issue with this if recount says it then it must be true!". So I do see the devs considering gunning for this, but the problem here is- this move is actually really useful even once you take away the part where you try to tricks the highest dps when correct. Just the threat part is worth having a keybind for, and it's 100% a rogue move (hunters having it is the part that doesn't make sense, and I remain puzzled why when they copied the move in from all the other games, they gave it to hunters for one expac before).

    Our talents offer precious few buttons. In fact we are already strapped thin, with deadly throw a talent and combat readiness a talent. Cool buttons like shadow walk and shroud of concealment need us to defend them, not be like "well I don't personally use this button so clearly every other rogue should lose it". If we were losing 20% of our buttons, we would lose EIGHT abilities.

    Can anyone think of eight abilities you could remove from rogues and still have them be the same class? It looks like redirect may be topping the list at this point, but I mean, other than that?


    I can't. I'm scared that they are even talking about this. If WoD takes away cool tricks to make some dumb spreadsheet happy, I'm gonna put my dick in the mashed potatoes.

  8. #108
    High Overlord Raic's Avatar
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    There's not a whole lot I want to see removed in terms of spellbook abilities for Rogues. A few notable ones (that I'm sure others have mentioned) that I would like to see.

    - Prep: Seems like Blizzard is moving away from this type of ability in favor of a charge system, I've really grown to enjoy the charge system on some of my alts and would like to see this changed for Rogues

    - Shadow Walk: I almost forgot to include this because I usually forget this ability exists

    - Sprint (w/Burst of Speed): Just to be clear, I don't want to the Sprint ability removed all together, I just want to see something done with either Sprint or BoS ability when the BoS talent is selected. BoS has grown on me this patch, probably too much, and in that time, with the cost reduction, it seems like Sprint almost feels redundant with this talent. A small change that I can immediately think of is to tweak the BoS talent...BoS is no longer an ability by itself, instead the talent removes the cooldown on Sprint, adds the movement slowing break, but here's the catch, the ability would only be free once every minute (internal cd timer or maybe a periodic buff, think Power Strikes) and each usage after that costs X energy. It would essentially become the old BoS but free once every minute, all in one button. As far as the duration difference (4 secs vs 8 secs), they could either make the free Sprint last 8 seconds or keep Sprint at 8 seconds all the time while increasing the energy cost.


    I'd prefer to see more done with the talent tree than just individual abilites in the spellbook, but that might be for another thread

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Raic View Post
    - Shadow Walk: I almost forgot to include this because I usually forget this ability exists
    This is the best example of a button that can't be bloaty. First, it's only useful while stealthed, so you can put it on your stealth bar. It's no more bloat than ambush or cheap shot. Second, the fact that you don't use it means, and I'm not trying to be a dick, that you are missing out. I use this button every arena, and sometimes I use it cleverly (aka, if there's an enemy stealther, I will try to use it when I think I'm near them). This button is truly cool, and by its very nature it can't be bloat.

    - Sprint (w/Burst of Speed)
    I use burst of speed almost exclusively at this point, even on fights where shadowstep is better. I think I swapped on a couple fights where step really provided a solid strongarm, but in general, I find that the entire removal of "woops I stepped into bad" more than makes up for the trivial dps loss, and simply never having to think "I'm out of juice" is soooooo nice. Then there's the debuffs it can clear. Huge fan of this move personally, it really feels like they nailed it. When there's two choices and I strongly prefer one without having any issue with the other, then that's the rare time of the talent done right.

    And no, I don't want to lose sprint. See, I have button, semicolon (would be where z is on your keyboard) this is my gap closer on like eight classes over three games. It's shadowstep if I spec it, and it's burst of speed if I spec that (it changes automatically with infmoptalent whatever that addon is, or Ari wrote a weakaura).

    Then sprint is 0, which is also nicely mapped on my mouse. I use and love both. Your way wouldn't even save me a button! Unless shadowstep was baseline with a two minute cooldown or something, then I'd love your method as the talent tier would basically become "greatly improves one of your mobility buttons". But I doubt they would do that sort of thing- definitely not with the cool modal power you describe, no move is that rich at the moment.
    Last edited by Verain; 2014-02-24 at 04:07 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    So apparently Blizz is going to remove ~20% of abilities in WoD to tone down ability bloat...which rogue abilities do you think should get this axe? Here's my list:

    >Tricks of the Trade - I hate this ability. I specifically picked rogue to avoid buffing others.
    Agreed, too shallow mechanic. I used to kill assholes in dungeons with it tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Preparation - Just bake the effect into the cooldowns already. Not difficult.
    Partly agreed. When your all of your cds are off, then it's not a decision but how about double vanish or double sprint? I frequently use double vanish to stay alive in world pvp. Preperation gives you an opportunity so it's not shallow imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Revealing Strike - This ability was put in the game just so combat would have another button to press. Not a good reason imo.
    Used mechanically as initial combo builder. So, yeah nothing deep or involves decision. Agreed on this

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Slice and Dice - Never been interesting.
    Totally agreed, you have to keep it up. Too mechanical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Shadow Walk - I never use this. I feel like they just slapped it in there to fill some sort of ability quota for mop.
    I use it together with its glyph against feral druids and other rogues. Disagreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Redirect - Combo points should be ON THE ROGUE. meaning this ability would be useless.
    Agreed. Meaningless. If you switch target, you basically redirect. Too mechanical, shallow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    >Expose Armor - I don't even like this mechanic, it's a pain.
    I am not sure if there exist a case where party needs rogues armor reduction. Even if its possible, I don't remember any. so Agreed.

  11. #111
    High Overlord Raic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    This is the best example of a button that can't be bloaty. First, it's only useful while stealthed, so you can put it on your stealth bar. It's no more bloat than ambush or cheap shot. Second, the fact that you don't use it means, and I'm not trying to be a dick, that you are missing out. I use this button every arena, and sometimes I use it cleverly (aka, if there's an enemy stealther, I will try to use it when I think I'm near them). This button is truly cool, and by its very nature it can't be bloat.
    I completely forgot about the PvP uses, TBH (gave up on PvP when I transferred realms). From a PvE point of view, I can't ever remember "needing" this button. My stealth bar is already packed, but that's more my fault...Shadow Walk is tucked away somewhere on my ctrl page I think. I guess they don't need to get rid of it, seeing as I don't have to put it on my bars.



    I use burst of speed almost exclusively at this point, even on fights where shadowstep is better. I think I swapped on a couple fights where step really provided a solid strongarm, but in general, I find that the entire removal of "woops I stepped into bad" more than makes up for the trivial dps loss, and simply never having to think "I'm out of juice" is soooooo nice. Then there's the debuffs it can clear. Huge fan of this move personally, it really feels like they nailed it. When there's two choices and I strongly prefer one without having any issue with the other, then that's the rare time of the talent done right.

    And no, I don't want to lose sprint. See, I have button, semicolon (would be where z is on your keyboard) this is my gap closer on like eight classes over three games. It's shadowstep if I spec it, and it's burst of speed if I spec that (it changes automatically with infmoptalent whatever that addon is, or Ari wrote a weakaura).

    Then sprint is 0, which is also nicely mapped on my mouse. I use and love both. Your way wouldn't even save me a button! Unless shadowstep was baseline with a two minute cooldown or something, then I'd love your method as the talent tier would basically become "greatly improves one of your mobility buttons". But I doubt they would do that sort of thing.
    Mine is also set up in a similar way so switching talents/binding is trivial. I just feel sad that I'm neglecting my Sprint button =(. I'm finding it hard to come up with good ideas, maybe the class is designed better than people think (plus it's Monday morning).

    I'm rather disappointed with the "mobility" tier anyway and I think they should rework it somehow. I wish I could see Blizzard's internal data on the number of rogues using Cloak and Dagger post-nerf, it really feels like a two-choice tier in most aspects of the game. I might be in favor of them scrapping Cloak and Dagger, making Shadowstep baseline (possibly with a longer cd), and focusing that tier on Sprint, maybe something similar to Warrior's tier 1.

    What I would hate to see is the removal (or baking in) of some core damage button, as I feel that this would be a step towards "one-button specs" which are awful.

  12. #112
    I don't care what else they take as long as they get rid of Tricks being a dps CD.
    But I would wager they are going to take away abilities that are never on my bars anyway, Expose Armor, Crimson Tempest etc etc. And before you flame that EA should be on bars, I raid 25 mans, multiple sunder abilities everywhere.

    There are more but I am not on my rogue atm to check spellbook for all the useless spells.

  13. #113
    I basically agree with Verain - rogues aren't much on the "bloat side". We have actually more "not cool" abilities (read: they are not very used because people couldn't care less about) and "boring" abilities.

    Under the second category falls TotT. It does its work, yes, providing raid dps; still it's a macro that needs to be pressed ever 30 seconds. It's Hunger for Blood just directed to another guy - this makes it a good candidate for removal.

    For the rest, i expect that the most of our "bloat reduction" will fall under the "we're going to remove some CCs from PvP". In PvE, rogues use consistently half of their spellbook, while the rest is only additional buttons which have more or less a use for PvP (meanwhile we still have to use all the PvE tools to deal damage).

    I'm fine with the current amount of things i have to press on the keyboard - rotations need to be more involving to keep the interest up. Maybe i'm too much used to the class, but too many times i switch to "passive mode" where i press buttons by reflex; there's no thought and while i'm not doing an optimal performance, still i'm doing good enough to not hinder my raid (which is another problem we have - difficult sometimes means more interesting).

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    This is the best example of a button that can't be bloaty. First, it's only useful while stealthed, so you can put it on your stealth bar. It's no more bloat than ambush or cheap shot.
    While I agree that Shadow walk and shround don't count towards button bloat since you can macro them in with another ability or but them on your stealth bar, the same can not be said for cheap shot, since you want to have access to all of your abilities during Shadow Dance. Mostly a PvP-concern, but any ability (sans backstab) you can use outside of stealth, you also want to be able to use during SD.

    Personally, I'd be fine with them doing away with Crimson Tempest, but that's mostly because I hardly ever use it. If it was really good I'd hate to see it go, but I could probably live with it. Expose Armor is another thing that I could live with them either removing completely, or make into some kind of passive. It's a bit like ToT (and rupture for combat), you use it every 30s for a miniscule DPS-increase. I don't feel like SnD belongs in the same company though, since it's so much more impactful, and the duration can actually vary from time to time. I can certainly see the argument for letting it go, but I've been pressing that button for a long time now. The ability that I really don't want to see go, that some people would rather ilve without, is Preparation. I think it's one of the few abilities we have that has real depth. Using prep at the right time is hard, and removing it removes a lot of possibilities. I'd also be a little miffed if they removed Distract, and to a lesser extent Pick Pocket. I also wouldn't mind it if they removed recuperate, but that's mostly because I don't think that DPS should go around healing themselves. But that's a separate issue to button bloat.

    TLDR:
    Fine with them axing: CT, EA
    But:
    Could live without: PP, ToT
    Hate to see go: SnD, Distract
    MY PRECIOUS: Prep

  15. #115
    I wish people who put pickpocket in the BLOAT basket would understand that this is still an RPG. And thanks to homogenization classes lost a LOT of flavor in exchange for QoL improvements for people who don't care about immersion. That small effort you needed to put in to having the tools for lockpicking, vanish, poisons, etc... was what gave the rogue class the rogue feel. If we didn't have stealth we could just be squishy warriors now.

    Rogues actually need more rotational abilities with flavor. Fun skills are not bloat, you don't bind them in a raid/pvp setting.

    Poison brewing, consumable items for skills were a good thing. Thistle tea was a fun thing (that still exists though I think).

    (to make my point more clear Hunter Arrows... I still mourn their loss)

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    What Blizzard had talked about- GC in particular- was that "bloat" doesn't mean "you have a lot of buttons" it is "you have a lot of buttons you feel like you should bind".
    Driving away from rogue-oriented discussion (deadly sin, I know)

    But one should emphasise that they're not gunning to make everyone have a 4 button rotation and exactly 20 non-rotational buttons. It's not going to be some rigid or formulaic 'you get this many buttons'.

    They are, however, removing some rotational abilites (See: Warriors) from what we've seen so far. So nothing is sacred if they're willing to axe overpower.

    I would imagine that some classes are going to lose some fluff and be given some real raid utility in it's place.



    Couple other things to consider: They want more spec diversity between rogue (and hunter) specs, maybe not as dramatic as warlocks, but worth noting.

    It's very possible that a lot of the button removal will come in making cooldowns and utilities exclusive to a given spec. Part of the dramatic fear is that 'Iconic ability X is disappearing and that makes my class feel like every other melee class'

  17. #117
    High Overlord Raic's Avatar
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    I actually love Pickpocket, but I hate how Blizzard continues to restrict this ability. I was really excited when Glyph of Disguise was introduced to the game back during the MoP pre-patch...then I found out that a lot of humanoids don't have pockets, including Garrosh.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis

    Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata

    Tricks - once a great ability, but now that threat is a non issue, it is reduced to a really annoying single target dps buff

    Shadow walk - extremely annoying to have to hit that.... should be passive considering the ridiculous AEs people have to unstealth us anyway

    Prep - a cooldown to reset cooldowns... never been a fan of that mechanic
    Wow, I've played a rogue for a long time, and can tell you have absolutely no idea how to play one or what certain differences between key abilities.
    1. Using envenom allows for a greater chance for poisons to hit, a great dps increase
    2. Dispatch isn't an additional button from backstab, it replaces it entirely. Not only that but it's NOT backstab because you can hit someone from the front with it.
    3. That you don't properly know how to use tricks to aid in getting adds to a tank is probably most embarrasing and extremely important on boss fights with adds.
    4. since shadow walk is a pvp ability and you can't get near someone without them breaking you out, you appear to be just as bad at pvp as you are at pve.
    5. Prep is an amazing offensive cd to use vanish when you're just sitting there waiting on your energy to regen.

    Please don't post about classes you clearly know nothing about. plskthnx

    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    Learn to post more constructively and not insult other users when posting if you want to remain infraction-free. plskthnx -Kael
    Last edited by Kael; 2014-02-24 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Mod warning

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedbuckland View Post
    Wow, I've played a rogue for a long time, and can tell you have absolutely no idea how to play one or what certain differences between key abilities.
    1. Using envenom allows for a greater chance for poisons to hit, a great dps increase
    2. Dispatch isn't an additional button from backstab, it replaces it entirely. Not only that but it's NOT backstab because you can hit someone from the front with it.
    3. That you don't properly know how to use tricks to aid in getting adds to a tank is probably most embarrasing and extremely important on boss fights with adds.
    4. since shadow walk is a pvp ability and you can't get near someone without them breaking you out, you appear to be just as bad at pvp as you are at pve.
    5. Prep is an amazing offensive cd to use vanish when you're just sitting there waiting on your energy to regen.

    Please don't post about classes you clearly know nothing about. plskthnx
    While I agree about envenom and dispatch. TotT is a shit dps cooldown, and that portion of it should be removed, its a threat mechanic, but with hunters having MD and able to do it from 40 yards it needs to go in its current form.

    Prep is not an "amazing offensive cd" it is average utility at best, vanish barely qualifies as a dps CD, you turn off your autoattacks for that brief period, losing Poison/MG procs. its effect should be baked in to CDs like readiness was.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedbuckland View Post
    Please don't post about classes you clearly know nothing about. plskthnx
    Learn to post more constructively and not insult other users when posting if you want to remain infraction-free. plskthnx -Kael

    To point out some major inconsistencies -- Envenom serves the same purpose as evis, it just increases the damage you do (very slightly - <2% iirc) for using it appropriately over not (for the buff). Dispatch is OLD backstab, without the ability to use it over the execute threshold. That's just what it is. We had an energy return on backstab (murderous intent, glyph). Now it's baked in.

    The others are arguments based on a specific raid role (not having a hunter) and personal preference (whether you like prep or not has nothing to do with the fact that it's better than not having it).

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