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  1. #121
    I'm going to have to agree with Verain on this, there are not too many rogue abilties I'd like to see gone. At the moment, the only two spells that I wouldn't cry TOO much about losing are Crimson Tempest and Expose Armor. However, I'd rather see them be changed to not suck than see them gutted. CT just needs to actually do damage for Combat and Assassination. Expose Armor needs to not be completely inferior to Faerie Fire (not take a glyph to apply 3 stacks and not cost energy).

    As for what MIGHT happen, it's too early to say. The fact that Arm Warriors no longer have access to Disarm does concern me that Dismantle may no exist in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkDath View Post
    While I agree about envenom and dispatch. TotT is a shit dps cooldown, and that portion of it should be removed, its a threat mechanic, but with hunters having MD and able to do it from 40 yards it needs to go in its current form.

    Prep is not an "amazing offensive cd" it is average utility at best, vanish barely qualifies as a dps CD, you turn off your autoattacks for that brief period, losing Poison/MG procs. its effect should be baked in to CDs like readiness was.
    TotT: I've stated in the past that I think they should split TotT into two separate spells: the dps portion and threat portion. They can then make it so that Tricks provides a buff to the target and a buff of some kind to the Rogue. T10, T12, and T13 all provide excellent examples of things that Tricks could provide the Rogue.

    Prep: Outside of Sub, Prep probably does not seem too amazing in PvE. However, Sub provides the Rogue with the ability to make the tactical decision to reset their cooldowns. This actually helps add to the Rogue skill cap in PvP.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    So apparently Blizz is going to remove ~20% of abilities in WoD to tone down ability bloat...which rogue abilities do you think should get this axe? Here's my list:

    >Tricks of the Trade - I hate this ability. I specifically picked rogue to avoid buffing others.
    >Preparation - Just bake the effect into the cooldowns already. Not difficult.
    >Revealing Strike - This ability was put in the game just so combat would have another button to press. Not a good reason imo.
    >Slice and Dice - Never been interesting.
    >Shadow Walk - I never use this. I feel like they just slapped it in there to fill some sort of ability quota for mop.
    >Redirect - Combo points should be ON THE ROGUE. meaning this ability would be useless.
    >Expose Armor - I don't even like this mechanic, it's a pain.
    Even though rogues don't have as much ability bloat as most other classes, I can completely agree with this list with the minor exception of Slice and Dice. I think SnD can be interesting if changed in a way that caters to a certain spec.

    Tricks of the Trade needs the axe for sure (tank threat hasn't been an issue in years and I'm tired of people begging and arguing over who's going to get my Tricks); Revealing Strike has been my biggest pet-peeve with combat since 4.0 (combat didn't need another button in it's base rotation).

    I hate CD resets, and Prep feels unnecessary now that Sprint, Evasion and Vanish are on much shorter CDs than in the past. Shadow Walk... do I even have that on my bars?! Redirect should naturally disappear if they add CPs to the rogue (which they should!) and Expose Armor is something I almost never use.

    Personally, I've always felt Shadow Blades was a bit pointless; didn't seem to add anything new to the class. Crimson Tempest sounds great on paper, but needs to be stronger in order for it to be worth using; and Shiv has become nothing more than a dispell for enrage effects, so I wouldn't mind seeing that go too.

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    The positional requirement for Backstab is nothing more than a pain in the ass. Bosses and players are no longer as stationary as they were back in 2005, so I would really like to see them either remove that aspect or make it usable from any position, but give it a damage increase if used from behind.

    I would be in favor of seeing Hemorrhage cut, since it has become nothing more than a minor bleed effect or something to spam when you aren't behind your target. I never really felt there was much difference between it and Sinister Strike.
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  3. #123
    So, to chime in on some of the more popular candidates for the axe:

    I like the double builders for each spec (i.e., Hemo+BS/RvS+SS/Disp+Mut). I'd prefer they weren't removed/combined. RvS pooling is fairly important at lower gear levels and the separate builders already have a clear and distinct use for the other two specs. It adds to the skill cap, which I think is a good thing.

    I do wish they would bake EA into one of the builders, like Hemo, RvS, and Mut. It's annoying having to bind EA and almost every other class with the ability to apply it does it passively or as part of their rotation. Though in 20m Mythic, it's highly doubtful armor debuffing would ever fall to the rogue, so they could probably just scrap EA all together and it wouldn't really matter.

    Prep is kind of stupid in PvE for Mut and Combat. It's much more useful for Subt since using Vanish correctly is a huge contribution to your DPS. However, charges with independent CDs (like Monk Roll, iirc) would be just as good. The only times I've used Prep outside of the minor DPS boost of resetting Vanish that I can remember are: Vanishing fixates on Empress, Sprint on Lei Shen for keeping up between Conduits, and Evasion to tank buffed adds on p1 Garrosh. In short, I would get rid of it, put charges on Vanish, lower the CD on Evasion, and leave Sprint and Dismantle the same.

    Shiv is useful enough that I think it should stay. It's the easiest way to add a 70% slow to one target that I know of. Paralytic's Shiv root has been useful on a handful of encounters as well. The enrage dispel is whatever; I think it should stay around for when it's useful (mostly on trash). Our group leaves those active most of the time for more tank vengeance though.

    Shadow Blades could be baked into our primary DPS CD at this point (since most of us macro it anyways), though at a buff for Mut/Subt since it's not up for every Vendetta or SD currently. I don't really want to see it go away completely since +1CP on your builders does feel really different and powerful.

    SnD could be made passive or completely removed for all 3 specs. It's not an interesting mechanic. However, it does take a modicum of skill to keep applied and many rogues still fail that skill check, so it marks a difference between someone pretty good at rogue and someone really bad at rogue. I feel like skill having a heavy impact on DPS is a good thing, and having to actively maintain SnD is a small part of that.

    I don't know why you guys are talking about Envenom and Dispatch being the same as Eviscerate and BS, respectively. They're similar, but removing them won't save a button (which is Blizzard's goal). It will just make the button the same as another spec.

    Redirect should be removed if they finally put CPs on the rogue, which they really should. It's as simple as that.

    Get rid of Shadow Walk. It's useless. The only way I think it should stay is if they buffed it to Vanish-level stealth (basically undetectable).

    TL;DR:

    • Keep the two builders for each spec. They create enough interesting gameplay to warrant a button.
    • Bake EA into a builder or just get rid of it.
    • Remove Prep; put charges on Vanish, halve the CD on Evasion, and keep Sprint and Dismantle the same.
    • Keep Shiv.
    • Bake SB into our primary DPS CD.
    • Keep SnD at least for Combat and Subt.
    • Env and Disp being similar to other abilities is irrelevant.
    • Put CPs on the rogue and get rid of Redirect.
    • Get rid of Shadow Walk.

    So, that gets rid of 5 abilities. That's definitely not 20%, but I don't think rogues have too many binds as it is anyway. Warriors, Hunters, Warlocks, and Monks have a lot more to bind than us and I think they'll be the target of the majority of that 20% overall ability reduction.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post

    Shiv is useful enough that I think it should stay. It's the easiest way to add a 70% slow to one target that I know of. Paralytic's Shiv root has been useful on a handful of encounters as well. The enrage dispel is whatever; I think it should stay around for when it's useful (mostly on trash). Our group leaves those active most of the time for more tank vengeance though.
    With Paralytic gone, I am slightly worried about what will happen with Shiv. The spell will seem weaker than ever without the option for Paralytic Root from Shiv. I wouldn't mind too much if they reverted it to the Pre-MoP version. It was extremely useful in pvp when a Rogue/Warrior popped Evasion/Die by the Sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post

    Shadow Blades could be baked into our primary DPS CD at this point (since most of us macro it anyways), though at a buff for Mut/Subt since it's not up for every Vendetta or SD currently. I don't really want to see it go away completely since +1CP on your builders does feel really different and powerful.
    Shadow Blades it really only redundant for Combat since it's always macroed with AR. As for SB for Mut and Sub, I think their toolkits would feel slightly underdeveloped with it. In pvp it's a common strat to use SB on the opener as Sub to force defensives and then use SDance to net the kill on the defenseless target. As for Mut, I actually would rather see Vendetta cut/changed.

    Vendetta is flawed on many levels. Working against only a single target and being 30 seconds long due to the glyph (usually a dps increase) hurts Assassination on many fights.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    TotT: I've stated in the past that I think they should split TotT into two separate spells: the dps portion and threat portion. They can then make it so that Tricks provides a buff to the target and a buff of some kind to the Rogue. T10, T12, and T13 all provide excellent examples of things that Tricks could provide the Rogue.
    Nope. Hated those tiers because they made tricks more mandatory than it already is. Like Coldkil said tricks is basically just Hunger For Blood for another guy, and even if they were to change it to buff the rogue as well then it's just HfB for both. It's not an interesting mechanic in the least which is why HfB doesn't exist anymore. I want to do damage by attacking things, not pressing a button every x seconds that increases damage by x amount.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Nope. Hated those tiers because they made tricks more mandatory than it already is. Like Coldkil said tricks is basically just Hunger For Blood for another guy, and even if they were to change it to buff the rogue as well then it's just HfB for both. It's not an interesting mechanic in the least which is why HfB doesn't exist anymore. I want to do damage by attacking things, not pressing a button every x seconds that increases damage by x amount.
    It's not a popular opinion around here in the past few months it seems, but having more than direct damage spells in a general rotation actually adds depth to the game. From the opinions I've seen from you, you would have it be that the only abilities rogues would have in their standard rotation would be a single CP generator and one, maybe two unless you decide want to axe Rupture too, CP finisher. How exactly does that add differentiation to the three Rogue specs again? That's the problem with pruning a pure dps class like a rogue. The more you strip core rotation abilities, the greater homogenization between the specs.

    I want to move away from spec homogenization by having our secondary CP generator act differently and be more involving. Yes, certain abilities like RvS and Hemo require little thought in maintaining. However, this is more because of MoP changes that made them too similar. With some changes, they could become core, rotational changing abilities for their respective specs similar to how Dispatch works for Assassination. Throwing the spell out with the spell mechanics is rarely the answer.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Vendetta is flawed on many levels. Working against only a single target and being 30 seconds long due to the glyph (usually a dps increase) hurts Assassination on many fights.
    If you have to swap off the target before it ends, then the glyph is not a gain on that fight. Don't use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    With Paralytic gone, I am slightly worried about what will happen with Shiv.
    The mind numbing version of shiv is ludicrous. The cripple version is ok. Maybe they will add the root elsewhere. Shiv in general needs a rework- the only part that feels solid to use is the paralytic version, and since seeing the lack of it, it is actually less fun on live to press it (for me anyway).



    I wouldn't mind too much if they reverted it to the Pre-MoP version. It was extremely useful in pvp when a Rogue/Warrior popped Evasion/Die by the Sword.
    We're in the minority, I'm sure. But I loved shiv until MoP. Now it's a wasted potential.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    If you have to swap off the target before it ends, then the glyph is not a gain on that fight. Don't use it.

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    While true, it's still limited compared to what other classes and specs have in their arsenal. Even then, it's a rather bland CD that doesn't really change how the rogue play for its duration. I like how AR, SD, and SB all change the pace of combat for their durations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The mind numbing version of shiv is ludicrous. The cripple version is ok. Maybe they will add the root elsewhere. Shiv in general needs a rework- the only part that feels solid to use is the paralytic version, and since seeing the lack of it, it is actually less fun on live to press it (for me anyway).
    Mind Numbing will hopefully be more useful in WoD pvp if blizzard comes through on their plan of reducing the number of instants that casters have.

    I kind of miss the old Crippling that was a base 70% slow. It definitely helped with rogues being able to get behind a target in pvp in order to Backstab and Ambush. It was one of the many reasons that Rogues were so awful in pvp at the very start of MoP.

    Doubting we'll keep the root give them wanting to reduce CC. If we have to lose one of our CCs, I'd rather lose the root than Gouge or Blind.

    Shiv has definitely seen better days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    We're in the minority, I'm sure. But I loved shiv until MoP. Now it's a wasted potential.
    So many people forget that it used to not be able to be Dodged or Parried. Now a days, against a melee, it's almost not worth it to hit Shiv unless you're behind the target.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    It's not a popular opinion around here in the past few months it seems, but having more than direct damage spells in a general rotation actually adds depth to the game.
    What depth does tricks offer? Hit this button every thirty seconds. Wow. Such depth. Very mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    That's the problem with pruning a pure dps class like a rogue. The more you strip core rotation abilities, the greater homogenization between the specs.
    I don't consider tricks to be a core rotational ability so I'm not even going to touch that, but on the topic of SnD...if you take out SnD the specs would be more different, not less considering they would no longer share that ability in common. But I don't think SnD should go away completely. The whole point is to reduce button bloat, which in my mind means keybindings. They should just make SnD passive. Maybe have it stack up over time on the same target so it has gameplay behind it (that's just an example off the top of my head).

    Plus we've seen specs work without SnD...SnD virtually doesn't exist for mut, which is why mut is my favorite spec. You get up SnD once at the beginning and then it's like it doesn't exist for the rest of the fight. So don't act like rogue rotations can't work without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Throwing the spell out with the spell mechanics is rarely the answer.
    The spell is the spell mechanics. What exactly are we keeping here? The name?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Mac223 View Post
    While I agree that Shadow walk and shround don't count towards button bloat since you can macro them in with another ability or but them on your stealth bar, the same can not be said for cheap shot, since you want to have access to all of your abilities during Shadow Dance. Mostly a PvP-concern, but any ability (sans backstab) you can use outside of stealth, you also want to be able to use during SD.

    Personally, I'd be fine with them doing away with Crimson Tempest, but that's mostly because I hardly ever use it. If it was really good I'd hate to see it go, but I could probably live with it. Expose Armor is another thing that I could live with them either removing completely, or make into some kind of passive. It's a bit like ToT (and rupture for combat), you use it every 30s for a miniscule DPS-increase. I don't feel like SnD belongs in the same company though, since it's so much more impactful, and the duration can actually vary from time to time. I can certainly see the argument for letting it go, but I've been pressing that button for a long time now. The ability that I really don't want to see go, that some people would rather ilve without, is Preparation. I think it's one of the few abilities we have that has real depth. Using prep at the right time is hard, and removing it removes a lot of possibilities. I'd also be a little miffed if they removed Distract, and to a lesser extent Pick Pocket. I also wouldn't mind it if they removed recuperate, but that's mostly because I don't think that DPS should go around healing themselves. But that's a separate issue to button bloat.

    TLDR:
    Fine with them axing: CT, EA
    But:
    Could live without: PP, ToT
    Hate to see go: SnD, Distract
    MY PRECIOUS: Prep
    Wasn't there some talk about SnD becoming a passive as one of the level up bonuses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    What depth does tricks offer? Hit this button every thirty seconds. Wow. Such depth. Very mechanics.



    I don't consider tricks to be a core rotational ability so I'm not even going to touch that, but on the topic of SnD...if you take out SnD the specs would be more different, not less considering they would no longer share that ability in common. But I don't think SnD should go away completely. The whole point is to reduce button bloat, which in my mind means keybindings. They should just make SnD passive. Maybe have it stack up over time on the same target so it has gameplay behind it (that's just an example off the top of my head).

    Plus we've seen specs work without SnD...SnD virtually doesn't exist for mut, which is why mut is my favorite spec. You get up SnD once at the beginning and then it's like it doesn't exist for the rest of the fight. So don't act like rogue rotations can't work without it.



    The spell is the spell mechanics. What exactly are we keeping here? The name?
    More like "use this on the healer, then pull while the tank is afk"
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  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Wasn't there some talk about SnD becoming a passive as one of the level up bonuses?
    Only for Mut. It's essentially already passive but still occupies a bind.

  12. #132
    Distract is important for some pvp fights. Namely when smartasses go back to the wall and you can't open. sap->distract allows turning them arround and thus opening on them.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Distract is important for some pvp fights. Namely when smartasses go back to the wall and you can't open. sap->distract allows turning them arround and thus opening on them.
    Not to mention patrols/stealthing past packs in PvE.

  14. #134
    This thread suffers a tiny bit post-merger because we weren't sure what Blizzard meant by button-bloat when it was originally written. GC cleared that up pretty well and it's clear we don't have much in the way of button bloat.

    Expose Armor: I'd love them to bake it into an ability but if they keep if for god's sakes could it just put up the three stacks without a glyph? Thank you.

    Throw: We need a ranged pull. It should give us a combo point. It should be instant cast with a cooldown. Not button bloat but hey, I still can dream.

    Pickpocket: a lot of folks missed out that early on we thought they just wanted to take away buttons but it's clear that's not entirely the case. So pickpocket is probably OK. Besides, what would WoW be without the exciting lockbox turn in for Insane title?

    Redirect: I thought there were quite a few defenders for combo points on rogue here, but perhaps I was mistaken. There were those who argued it was simply something that separated rogues from monks.

    Poisons: We haven't talked about poisons much at all and given their hour duration they hardly cause button bloat. Really, I think there should only be deadly poison and it should be always on. An LFR raid rogue without deadly is one of the ten most pathetic sights in WoW. Leaching doesn't seem worth it, paralytic seems unevenly popular, mind numbing has become stupid, and crippling has almost always been useful for us. I think they need to address this toolbox. I suppose two utility poisons and deadly always on would be one way although perhaps not super-thematic.

    Shadowwalk: I just have trouble thinking imagining why rogues shouldn't excel at detecting stealth and, you know, being stealthy without a button.

    I don't believe the 20% ability removal was directed a rogues in any way, myself. I thought GC said something to that effect--meaning we don't have a great deal of keybind-bloat.

    My guess is they will kill Feint and rogues will then make a point to Shiv everyone at Blizzard.

  15. #135
    My guess for what will be cut (but not necessarily what I want cut):

    Crimson Tempest
    Redirect
    Expose Armor
    Shadow Walk
    Distract
    Tricks

  16. #136
    More or less only thing i want gone is Slice and dice. Its a boring tedius skill to keep up. Not exactly hard as assassination tho

  17. #137

  18. #138
    shadow blades-should be baked into other cooldowns each spec has
    shadow walk-should be passive
    redirect-we dont need it, didnt needed before and still dont need it
    revealing strike-why the fuck did they change the way combat rogue was in wotlk? sinister stirke had 50% chance of granting an extra cp when it crit, when you glyphed it-at least crit wouldnt be such a pathetic stat
    recuperate-someone might like it, especially pvpers, but no, not every class needs a heal+we have enough reductions anyways
    crimson tempest-better make fok hit harder please
    lockpicking is probably a good candidate too, would be better to just click a lockbox to open it as a rogue, but i think it adds some flavor to rogue and thus they should let it be as it is

    damn, forgot about poisons. think mind numbing should be baked into crippling, especially since its been nerfed
    Last edited by Feindy; 2014-02-25 at 08:20 AM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    While true, it's still limited compared to what other classes and specs have in their arsenal. Even then, it's a rather bland CD that doesn't really change how the rogue play for its duration. I like how AR, SD, and SB all change the pace of combat for their durations.
    That is a fair assessment. The entire purpose of the cooldown is to give rogues a reason for everyone to hate them because they have to stay on a boss. When we were wiping on Immer I finally assigned a healer to tunnel dispels on me and simply told everyone else that they had to work on adds. No one liked this, but it absolutely was instrumental in our kill, as we immediately began routinely transitioning out of p1/p2 dangerzone.
    Of course I still did a ton of damage to adds and swapped to them, but this let me actually use vendetta and glyph it, which before I could not. I agree that in general, it adds precious little to rogues except annoyance and the wish that we had rolled a class that wasn't so insistent on the princess dps job.

    Mind Numbing will hopefully be more useful in WoD pvp if blizzard comes through on their plan of reducing the number of instants that casters have.
    Psh. No fucking way. I was told casters would have to cast in Cata, and then in MoP. It's always been a lie. The simple fact is, it is much more FUN to feel you have something that is contributy even if tunnelled, and no matter what their design goals are, they will go back on them for at least two casters, and then the others will complain until shamans are able to freely cast on the move again, etc.

    I kind of miss the old Crippling that was a base 70% slow.
    They had to offer us wild mobility buffs to make up for this, and by numbers at high ratings, rogues have yet to recover from this nerf, having a tiny rep compared to predicted.

    It definitely helped with rogues being able to get behind a target in pvp in order to Backstab and Ambush. It was one of the many reasons that Rogues were so awful in pvp at the very start of MoP.
    I'm not going to rant about how bad 5.0 was. It was OBJECTIVELY the worst pvp, and the worst class diversity that the game had ever seen, even beating out S5. Rogues were sub 1% in 5.0 above 2200, down from like 13% (a mild overrep). That's a class deletion. 5.1 improved things by enough to put just a few rogues on the map, and 5.2 gave us too much synergy with hunters, who suddenly ran with us instead of warriors. Even then we weren't overrepped, just the comp was. But wait! Blizzard to the rescue- the nerf went into effect far before the season was over, showing the kind of proactive class balancing that we have seen at no other point in MoP, and thus ensuring that rogues had a worthless to poor showing each and every patch.

    Doubting we'll keep the root give them wanting to reduce CC. If we have to lose one of our CCs, I'd rather lose the root than Gouge or Blind.
    The news dump we get soon will determine entirely the course of WoD. Losing paralytic is sad, but it won't burn the house down. If kidney shot is gone, rogues are done, 100% don't even fucking log in. If gouge is gone, see if other classes lost at least one CC each and count it as fair. If blind is gone, see if classes lost their hard CC. If blind AND gouge are gone, other classes should essentially have 1 CC per minute levels of CC- it should be rare and a full redesign.

    Shiv has definitely seen better days.
    Amen.


    So many people forget that it used to not be able to be Dodged or Parried. Now a days, against a melee, it's almost not worth it to hit Shiv unless you're behind the target.
    I'll tell this story until I die IRL:

    Some gladiator DK in perfect gear was ownyfacing guildies in snow land (this was during LK)- I went to help, but his damage was OFF THE CHAIN- I had to leave. I was so furious! But I knew I could do it. The problem was, he was seriously not taking any damage versus me. Analyzing the combat log revealed the issue- some of my attacks hit for 1. Those few that didn't hit for hundreds at the most. Back then, DKs had one of their two frost cooldowns that they still have today, but the defensive effect was to decrease all damage done to them per hit. This meant that all rogue offhand dagger autoattacks would literally hit for one during it, the other hits weren't much better, and it would last more than long enough for a DK to win with just magic damage.

    I made an adrenaline rush / shiv build. Offhand instant poison IIRC. I opened on him, popped adrenaline rush and blade flurry. But what did I do? SHIV SHIV SHIV SHIV SHIV SHIV SHIV. He couldn't parry the shivs. He couldn't ignore the instant poison. The only CD he had that helped him was AMS, which I obviously didn't waste energy into. I soloed that guy. He was furious, shat a brick of text on the forum about how I was a hacker and shit. The spec was, of course, worthless for any other purpose at any other time. But worth every moment spent planning and executing that gank, and every gold piece.






    Yea, shiv used to be good.

  20. #140
    High Overlord Raic's Avatar
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    I'm curious to know (and Google isn't giving me much), we know that Paralytic Poison was replaced in the talent tree with Internal Bleeding, but do we know if Paralytic Poison was removed entirely?

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