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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Do you think blizzard will implement any of these rogue ideas for the next expansion?

    This is my example of a rogue overhaul to make our specs play more differently and feel more exciting to use. Pretty much this is my wishlist to make rogues neater in how they currently work. Some things will be changed, but to me this just makes rogues a lot more "logical" in how they operate. I have played a rogue since mid tbc/2006 and it's always been my main, I've played on cataclysm PTR too which imo is when rogues started going downhill.

    General

    Energy + Health
    - Static Energy Regeneration, so there is no more balancing us around end game haste and gear.
    - Recuperate : Is now passive, under the excuse that it is tied to energy regeneration. Rogues gain 1% health and 10 energy per second, regardless of combat as a baseline.

    Stealth
    New self buff aura
    - Enveloping shadows : Whilst active, the rogue will constantly attempt to enter stealth as soon as possible whenever they are not in combat.
    Clickable in the way it works similar to righteous fury tanking buff for paladins. Optional, and prevents the need to spam stealth when running away.

    Combo points
    The 1st talent tier is devoted to combo points instead of stealth. Redirect as an ability is removed.
    Choose between one of the below abilities:
    - Anticipation : Store up to 10 combo points on a single target.
    - Redirect : Combo points are now stored on the rogue.
    - Executioner : 5 combo point offensive melee finishing moves will now instantly teleport you up to 40 yards to reappear behind your target.

    Finishing moves
    Have been reworked.
    - Finishing moves are no longer on the global cooldown, however they now share a 1 second cooldown, effectively giving them a separate global cooldown.
    - Finishing no longer cost energy to use, instead they only cost combo points.

    Addressing Button Bloat
    Some finishing moves are removed and merged:
    - Recuperate is now passive (removed from action bar).
    - Slice and Dice is no longer an active ability (removed from action bar).
    - Crimson tempest is merged with rupture (removed from action bar).
    - Rupture functions as a strong single target dot, with aoe cleave capability, making it superiour to eviscerate over time and in aoe situations.

    Mobility & Cooldown management
    - Shadowstep is now learnt from a trainer instead of preparation. Preparation is now a talents.
    - New Ability "Blinkstep" shares a cooldown with shadowstep. Shadowstep to the targeted location.

    Choose between:
    - Preparation : Instantly resets affected cooldowns. 4 minute cooldown. In addition, affected abilities restore 5% of your health when used.
    - Elusiveness : 50% shorter cooldowns.
    - Set up : Two ability charges but no cooldown reduction.

    Abilities affected:
    Major: Smoke bomb, Evasion, Vanish. Minor: Sprint, Shadowstep.

    Assassinations
    Flavour/Concept: An assassin who utilises fast attacks from daggers drenched in poison to dispatch enemies.
    Quick Overview: Less ramp up time. More target switch friendly, more poison emphasis, and more new more fun/interesting abilities. Slightly more stealth friendly.

    - Energy Regeneration redesigned.
    Venomous wounds : The rogue gains 2 energy for every poison attack dealt.
    Compliments new AOE ability. You no longer "need" rupture, instead you "want" to use rupture because of its new damage and cleave.

    - Envenom no longer costs energy, it instead helps to restore energy by improving poison application rate.

    - New AOE Ability:
    Deadly Poison Vials. 40 yard range, 60 second cooldown, 3 charges.
    Throws and Smashes a vial of deadly poison into the targetable 10 yard area (similar to distract, or death and decay), contaminating all enemies with a stack of the rogues deadly poison. Does not break stealth.
    This is the new ability. It offered great aoe potential and rewards smart game play, or can be used to refresh deadly poison at range. Use this right and it helps to restore your energy. It only applies 1 stack, but energy regen is not stack dependant.

    - New End Talent (replaces vendetta):
    Assassinate. 45 second cooldown, 40 yard range.
    Leap and knock an enemy to the ground, lowering the cost of dispatch/backstab to 20 energy and guaranteeing you apply poison with every attack for 4 seconds. In addition, the target is also marked for death, increasing damaging attacks you deal to the target by 10% for 60 seconds.
    [I]Literally this ability "assassinate" allows you to stab the crap out of their back. It doesn't deal the damage for you like an ability like killing spree would, instead it lets you use backstab so that it remains interactive and the player feels like they are doing the damage. It also requires you to pool energy, and is treated like cheap shot.

    Combat Specilisation

    Flavour/Concept : An incredibly fluid blademaster who is able to utilise an enemies momentum against them.
    Overview : Slow, but powerful combo point builders and progressively faster auto attacks. Not much emphasis on damage dealing finishers, but instead on the attacks themselves.

    Now this is quite drastic. I've changed (redesigned/deleted) slice and dice and adrenaline rush and removed insight.
    Fact is we don't need to stack damage cooldowns. It isn't fun, it isn't balanced. We already have killing spree and now shadowblades for damage cooldowns.

    Removed insight. Replaced with slice and dice.
    New passive : Slice and Dice
    - Each weapon strikes generates momentum, increasing your attack speed by 2% for 30 seconds, stacking up to 25 times. Upon the 10th application, you gain adrenaline rush, increasing your attack speed by 50% and energy regeneration by 100% for 10 seconds and then slice and dice will reset.
    New Passive:
    - Unfair Advantage: When the rogue would successfully dodge or parry an attack, he will instead deflect it back onto the attacker and generate 1 combo. Cannot occur more than once per second.
    This is not intend for tanking, instead for flavour and uniqueness and to go to toe to toe with enemies whilst levelling and during pvp.

    Relentless Strikes - Passive/Redesigned. Sinister Strike Reduces the cooldown of Revealing Strike by 1 second.

    Revealing Strike - Now has a cooldown but is more powerful than sinister strike.
    50 energy cost. 8 second cooldown. Causes 250% melee damage and awards 2 combo points.

    Sinister Strike - 40 energy cost. Deals 200% weapon damage. Awards 1 combo points.

    Subtlety:

    I don't want it to be as much about bleeds. I want it to be about powerful finishing moves and mobility.
    Concept: Weak but fast combo point generation, strong finishers, supported by tricks mobility, deception, and stealth.

    - New finishing move :
    Cloak and dagger: Shadowstep and Blinkstep now grant subterfuge and allow the use of one stealth ability within 3 seconds.
    This lets you use garrotte in pve, or cheapshot whilst levelling. It's like subterfuge but with only 1 stealth ability. It doesn't stop auto attacking or drop combat.

    - New mobility move :
    Hit and run. Requires Shadowstep/Cloak and Dagger/Blinkstep. 40 yard range.
    Using the ability after shadowstep or blinkstep will return you to your previous location and increase movement speed by 100% for 3 seconds.
    Hit and Run lets you whack a target and then retreat quickly. It can be used to make quick attack, stun, or intterupt and then seek immediate cover. Everything has been decided with trade offs, so you have to balance a combination of offensive and defensive play which in my opinion is what makes rogues interesting and can keep them balanced.

    The intent is to make rogues less annoying to other classes by reducing their dependency of stun mechanics, instead replacing them with flare and mobility as well as control without damage. This is my new list so let me know what you think so far.
    Last edited by Murdeh; 2014-02-10 at 03:54 PM.

  2. #2
    we know already blizzard wont massivly change anything so my guess would be no
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  3. #3
    The answer is no.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Hrmm... A few pointers to make.

    1) The haste no longer affects energy regen. This will make haste only affect one damage source for rogues- auto attacks. Back when haste only affected auto attacks, it was the WORST stat for rogues, even hit past the soft cap was better. Of course, things like haste has double the effect per haste rating (Or 1% haste grants 2% increased attack speed) would help with the damages, or even make it to where more haste will affect other sources of damage (Haste increasing bleed tick speed, poison tick speed, and, for combat, further increases the attack speed of SnD)

    2) Kidney Shot having its combo point cost removed. I personally feel that this will NOT happen- blizz has stated many times before that they feel CC is out of control, and adding in a "free" stun every 20 seconds will only help to contribute to this. (Rogues will still have gouge, blind, garrote, cheap shot, ect)

    3) Prep vs 2 charge talent. Due to the nature of prep, I would have to say its almost identical to the 2 charge talent, except the 2 charge talent is superior whenever you can't use prep twice (Or a pvp scenario that lasts long enough for prep to come back off CD, 6 mins+.) I would personally like to see blizz just remove prep and give all the rogue abilities it affects a charge system.

    Your spec changes are fairly decent, though. The main thing is haste becoming useless, and making prep a talent, again.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  5. #5
    1) The haste no longer affects energy regen. This will make haste only affect one damage source for rogues- auto attacks. Back when haste only affected auto attacks, it was the WORST stat for rogues, even hit past the soft cap was better. Of course, things like haste has double the effect per haste rating (Or 1% haste grants 2% increased attack speed) would help with the damages, or even make it to where more haste will affect other sources of damage (Haste increasing bleed tick speed, poison tick speed, and, for combat, further increases the attack speed of SnD)
    Haste affecting energy regeneration has caused nothing but aggravation to stat scaling, as proven by the energy increase to sinister strike and combat rogues still complaining of energy capling.
    Right now we are in a situation where specs feel energy starved and broken or painful to use at low gear and low character levels.

    If haste is a weak/non appealing stat, that is a mathematical problem, and not a game play issue. In its current implementation, it is affecting gameplay in a way unlike any other stat, which is welcome but not necessary to play. For example, mastery makes you deal more damage, but without it your spec is not unplayable or drastically different.

    I'll accept your point about kidney shot. At the moment, all classes have "free" Stuns, the suggestion was made merely to keep up.

    Adding charges to abilities is just "your" opinion. It just so happens, I too share this opinion, but many rogues would be disappointed to see preparation removed, even if charges were implemented.

    My reasoning for making preparation a talent (in exchange for a baseline trainable shadow step) was to allow you to choose between preparation, shorter cooldowns, or charges on abilities. It's a much more equal talent choice, considering they all directly affect your cooldown usage rather just mobility, my suspicion is that most would agree and use the charges system, unless maybe shorter cooldowns benefitted pve environments.
    Last edited by Murdeh; 2013-11-06 at 11:39 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Hrmm... A few pointers to make.

    1) The haste no longer affects energy regen. This will make haste only affect one damage source for rogues- auto attacks. Back when haste only affected auto attacks, it was the WORST stat for rogues, even hit past the soft cap was better. Of course, things like haste has double the effect per haste rating (Or 1% haste grants 2% increased attack speed) would help with the damages, or even make it to where more haste will affect other sources of damage (Haste increasing bleed tick speed, poison tick speed, and, for combat, further increases the attack speed of SnD)
    well we heard an hughe ammount of complaints of how passive rogue damage is haste should serve another purpose then increasing autoattack swings and increase energy regen i think haste should like you mentioned it before increase poison/bleed ticks and maybe give us some sort of random proc like dispatch with RPPM build in it so haste wont be the worst stat make it interessting for us to consider playing a spec with haste & mastery or a spec with crit & mastery just get away from haste = energy regen + autoattacks
    Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-11-06 at 11:43 PM.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  7. #7
    Most of the changes you propose here seen rather OP. I liek some of your ideas tough but theyd take forever to balance all these.

  8. #8
    Eh, some ideas I like, some I don't.

    Your idea for Riposte would essentially give Rogues a permanent disarm.

    I like the idea of poisons being an Assass thing, maybe weapon enhancements could work for Combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    - Burst Of Speed removed (sprint buffed. Don't need two abilities to increase speed)
    I disagree with this, BoS makes sense. Although maybe it should replace Sprint.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    we know already blizzard wont massivly change anything so my guess would be no
    Not so sure about that, they've expressed an interest in making the specs more distinct. I hope they're not too conservative with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I disagree with this, BoS makes sense. Although maybe it should replace Sprint.
    Nooo..Then I can't cross water fast!XD

  10. #10
    Would would be cool,

    As an alternative to chasing people everywhere, have a move where we jump on their shoulders (like that goblin in DM) and stab them in the head repeatedly!

    OR a Kunai, that we can throw and shout "GET OVER HERE"
    (though that would be a little like deathgrip)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Would would be cool,

    As an alternative to chasing people everywhere, have a move where we jump on their shoulders (like that goblin in DM) and stab them in the head repeatedly!

    OR a Kunai, that we can throw and shout "GET OVER HERE"
    (though that would be a little like deathgrip)
    i like the idea stabbing ppl in the head
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  12. #12
    Well most of what you said probably won't happen but they did talk about maybe making snd only 1 spec.

    I don't think they will take haste back to auto attack only but I do agree that haste needs to stop fixing it. But your idea may not be the solution.

    Also if you made snd combat only and dmg poisons assassination only you have any idea how hard sub would have to hit the pvp qq would be endless.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-11-07 at 07:56 PM.

  13. #13
    I don't think making haste not affect energy regen is a good idea, but I agree that something has to give here. I'm tired of the same old song and dance every expansion.

    Energy starved while leveling and most of the first tier>starts to get ok in the middle of the xpac>LOL LETS SEE HOW FAST YOU CAN SPAM SS.

    Its not as big of an issue for sub/mut, but even they feel really boring early on when you're constantly energy starved. This whole energy issue nearly always means rogues will perform exceptionally well late in expansions, which I don't mind, but it almost feels like they tune rogues in early tiers around them being in a very good spot in later tiers.

    I think a lot of the changes are wishful thinking, but I really enjoy the idea of Assassination having an AOE poison toss or something. A poison toss that changes depending on poison equipped with 2 effects, 1 for lethal and 1 for non lethal. These will not apply poisons to target, but affect the target as long as they stay in the say 10 yard wide ground affect.

    Poison toss- 45 sec CD
    Wound- Flat damage + healing taken decrease while in ground affect(maybe 10% higher than when the poison is actually on target, so that would be 35% these days?)
    Deadly- Flat damage + poison damage taken increase(think envenom but instead of buff you on, debuff on them) Maybe this one will actually apply the dot as well.
    Crippling - Rogue Desecration
    Mind-Numbing - Increase cast time
    Leeching- Beneficial one, heals all friendly targets inside for 25% of rogues health. Number tweaking need here, just tossing this out for the idea though.
    Para- 3 sec root for all targets.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    we know already blizzard wont massivly change anything so my guess would be no
    How do we know that^^?If so im utterly disappointed.I was kinda expecting something like they did with warlocks.

    Also nearly all of the OP's ideas are pvp oriented.I think they should think how the rogue class plays in PVE when giving us new things.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bznga View Post
    How do we know that^^?If so im utterly disappointed.I was kinda expecting something like they did with warlocks.

    Also nearly all of the OP's ideas are pvp oriented.I think they should think how the rogue class plays in PVE when giving us new things.
    GC said we should not expect an warlock like overhaul
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    GC said we should not expect an warlock like overhaul
    He also said what he meant by that was we weren't getting all new resources like them. So really its hard to say what they will do other than that and I doubt blizzcon is going to help us on this only the beta really will.

  17. #17
    Some of these changes would be fun and good, so, no they will never be implemented.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitlanbox View Post
    I don't think making haste not affect energy regen is a good idea, but I agree that something has to give here. I'm tired of the same old song and dance every expansion.

    Energy starved while leveling and most of the first tier>starts to get ok in the middle of the xpac>LOL LETS SEE HOW FAST YOU CAN SPAM SS.

    Its not as big of an issue for sub/mut, but even they feel really boring early on when you're constantly energy starved. This whole energy issue nearly always means rogues will perform exceptionally well late in expansions, which I don't mind, but it almost feels like they tune rogues in early tiers around them being in a very good spot in later tiers.

    I think a lot of the changes are wishful thinking, but I really enjoy the idea of Assassination having an AOE poison toss or something. A poison toss that changes depending on poison equipped with 2 effects, 1 for lethal and 1 for non lethal. These will not apply poisons to target, but affect the target as long as they stay in the say 10 yard wide ground affect.

    Poison toss- 45 sec CD
    Wound- Flat damage + healing taken decrease while in ground affect(maybe 10% higher than when the poison is actually on target, so that would be 35% these days?)
    Deadly- Flat damage + poison damage taken increase(think envenom but instead of buff you on, debuff on them) Maybe this one will actually apply the dot as well.
    Crippling - Rogue Desecration
    Mind-Numbing - Increase cast time
    Leeching- Beneficial one, heals all friendly targets inside for 25% of rogues health. Number tweaking need here, just tossing this out for the idea though.
    Para- 3 sec root for all targets.
    It could just replace shiv and offer the same sort of effect but as an aoe.

    Would a passive recuperation be op? Passive as in 1% per second during and out of combat.

    I almost think rogues deserves some kind of necrotic strike or poison, we seem very weak vs healers especially as we can't burst as well as some other classes.

    Im almost certain that cut to the chase will be removed/redesigned and baked into enveom and slice and dice will become combat only.

    I would like to see vendetta removed/replaced. It's just so boring and unimaginative, but I don't think it will be changed.


    I also think something will be done about our cooldowns, as preparation is just a bandage at the moment
    Either prep will become a talent choice between prep, shorter cooldowns, or abilities with charges with shadowstep becoming baseline because it's a fun ability.
    Or, charges will be built into our abilities.
    Or, our cooldowns will just be reduced dramatically/noticably


    Rupture needs to get buffed a lot, but more than likely nothing will change. Shotty sanguinary veins and venomous wounds Arnt going anywhere - two talents that I despise.

  19. #19
    Edit: Posted this in the poll thread first but it fits here aswell.

    I was actually thinking about some similar changes the other day and i like most of your ideas. Here's some other ideas that i'm just throwing out there. Some are really wild and probably unrealistic but it's all under the assumption that we'll have the kind of big makeover op is talking about:

    Overall: Combo points as a player buff. I know gc has commented on it but it simply makes more sense.

    Assa:

    -Spec idea: Burst damage and steady poison dps and debuffs.

    -No more Snd/rupture rotation

    -Bring back cold blood in some form! Perhaps a new kind of finishing move or a cd with charges or something. I don't care, i just want it back.

    -Both lethal and nonlethal poisons unique to assa. Maybe even make poisons active abilities? Either in some kind of combination with shiv or by themselves. For example if there's a caster add in a raid you could just mind numb him directly without applying the poison first. Or use it to build up deadly stacks in your rotation. No more autoattacks proccing poisons. Would give more flexibility and give the spec a better debuffing niche.

    -This could give envenom a more distinct role as the "instant poison proccer".

    -Dispatch, vendetta, and venomous wounds needs to be changed, but i'm not sure how yet.

    -New abilities, like the poison aoe op was talking about (instead of FoK which should be more of a combat spell).

    Combat:

    -Spec idea: Physical steady dps, keeping up important buffs, actively reducing cds on AR and SB and active deflection/mitigation.

    -Killing spree: Remove cooldown and make it drain energy. That way it's good burst damage but can hurt your long term dps since it doesnt generate cps. Feels more logical to get tired instead of energized after the ability aswell.

    -Snd unique to the spec. Maybe make the duration alot shorter so it's actually a challenge to maintain? Like 10-15 sec duration? Double attacks instead of haste like the op is suggesting is interesting, and there could be other ways too.

    -More distinct defensive abilities, both active and passive.

    -No more poisons/rupture.

    -Restless blades is one of the coolest new things about combat imo. Could be buffed and tied to recuperate instead of current mechanics though. First of all it makes sense to get some adrenaline back after recuperating. Second it gives the combat rotation some "passive" selfhealing and third it would only be useful when the fight lasts longer than the cooldowns, ie raid bosses.

    -Change revealing strike to something remotely interesting.

    Sub:

    -Spec idea: Stealth, illusion, bleeds and traps.

    -Give sub a couple of traps. Alot of unexplored opportunities here.

    -No more Snd/poisons.

    -Rupture would need to be changed into something interesting if it's gonna be more of a core spell for sub.

    -New sub cleave: Creates a shadow copy of yourself that follows a different target and performs the same spells you do. Combination of old blade flurry and DKs dancing rune weapon.

    -Distract also applies the find weakness debuff.

    In general i've always felt that the concepts of assa/sub has been very similar and another idea would be to merge the two into one spec and introducing a new third spec instead. The same is true for hunters with MM/survival i think. Hopefully blizzard won't introduce another new class in WoD so that would give them the opportunity to rework several of the existing classes instead.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    we know already blizzard wont massivly change anything so my guess would be no
    Why not? We saw already what they did with Warlocks in MoP, rogues are one of the least playable classes, maybe they'll change us slightly but emphatically.

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