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  1. #161
    Another reason not to trust the gamers when it comes to making decisions about whats good or bad in a game. Let the dev's do their own game imo.
    twitch.tv/draahl - Watch me suck at virtually every game!

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So the "smart" thing to do is throw in the towel and let the disgusting behavior of some horrible individuals slide? I fucking disagree in the strongest of terms. Those in the public eye at dev companies are important and are responsible for communicating a lot with their respective communities and being a voice for the company. Removing them creates an atmosphere where gamers are far less connected to the games they play and the people who creates them, which is a damn fucking shame.
    Yes, it's actually extremely clear what the smart thing to do is. If you CAN identify and punish them you do it, if that's not possible (the usual scenario) you don't give any SIGN you care.

    There's no middle ground, it's either A or B and anything in between is wrong.
    All the feedback they should be receiving is message deleted/account suspended/authorities informed.
    And this article... are you fucking kidding me? What kind of a moron thinks it's a good idea to let internet trolls know the person they harass might quit the job if they push harder?

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtimmy View Post
    This thread seems to be populated by two primary groups:

    1.) People who actually took the time to read and understand the article.

    2.) People who are part of the problem discussed by the article.

    I'm all for having a "thick skin," but honestly, this isn't a case of being trolled in WoW trade chat or something. It's a case of someone having information such as your real name, in addition to where you work or where you live and issuing threats against you. Not just harsh criticism about games, but actual threats that transcend the subject of games entirely. This is a whole different level. A lot of them may simply be idle threats, but that's almost not even the point. The point is the impact those threats have, and the fact that you can't take them lightly considering the circumstances.
    What caused it to escalate to that point?

    Here is a hint; was not the player base's actions.

    The fix is not game companies going to war with their customer base, it is not stomping their first amendments rights in the ground, it is game companies changing the way they do business.

    If I was developing a game and wanted to compete in the MMO market I would simply vow no nerfts ever, if it is in the game it stays in the game, we will never burden our player base with mistakes we make. I would place the burden of getting it right the first time, every time on the development team (as it should be).

    Market a game like that and keep that promise you will have the happiest customer base in the industry.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Personally, I'm on the stance that there's no such thing as 'a victim of bullying', and that there's no excuse to go to the extreme of taking your own life or whatever "because I was bullied a bit", but that's an ENTIRELY different subject so we shouldn't really lay into it here.

    This isn't really "new". Game Devs have delayed projects or done things based on people 'le trolzing xd' them in the past, so I don't see how it's suddenly super note-worthy and current now.
    1. You seem like you've never been bullied in your life or been the victim of any prolonged, sustained harassment. While I'm glad for you, it's clearly coloring your perception of the affects it can have on a person.

    2. Did you even read the article/ It has nothing to do with delaying a project or changing something based on "le trolzing xd", but everything to do with the personal impact that the sustained harassment they receive can have on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    You need to take in to account what led to it, why was it the seemingly last straw with many players, and if 1000's of them are so upset they reach to over the top harassment, then it is sure bet 10's of 1000's of them, perhaps even 100's of 1000's of them are just as upset, they just did not go to that extreme to show it. If that many people are unhappy is that not a statement of how poor Devs are at doing their jobs?
    They're doing their jobs because that's what they're paid to do and they don't want to lose them. They're doing their jobs because they're working in an industry they love on projects they love. However it's gotten to the point where this kind of harassment from "gamers" is causing them to seriously question whether or not they want to stay in the industry. I don't see what's confusing about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by abijax View Post
    Yes, it's actually extremely clear what the smart thing to do is. If you CAN identify and punish them you do it, if that's not possible (the usual scenario) you don't give any SIGN you care.
    Oddly enough, you rarely see those being harassed complain about it. I remember in the CoD incident the guy made a comment on how he was blown away over how angry people were, but that was about all he said publicly on the issue. It was gaming news sites that brought up the story and wrote about it to discuss the issue, as they should have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by abijax View Post
    And this article... are you fucking kidding me? What kind of a moron thinks it's a good idea to let internet trolls know the person they harass might quit the job if they push harder?
    The kinds hoping that appealing to common human decency may actually do something...or the kind who want to let others know how bad it really is for them in the hopes that the industry can try to figure out how to combat this kind of behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    What caused it to escalate to that point?

    Here is a hint; was not the player base's actions.

    The fix is not game companies going to war with their customer base, it is not stomping their first amendments rights in the ground, it is game companies changing the way they do business.
    Fun fact: First Amendment rights don't extend to countries that aren't America, or to the internet.

    And what caused it to escalate to this level of harassment? I'm pretty sure it was "Gamers" on social media...considering they're the ones who started engaging in this horrible behavior...I don't really see where else to lay the blame, because nothing justifies this kind of behavior. Ever.

    And how can they "change the way they do business" to the affect that when they make extremely minor balance changes to a few guns in CoD and let people know, the guy in charge of balance patches gets hundreds of threats to his life and well being? Like, what's supposed to change in that other than to simply not touch the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    If I was developing a game and wanted to compete in the MMO market I would simply vow no nerfts ever, if it is in the game it stays in the game, we will never burden our player base with mistakes we make. I would place the burden of getting it right the first time, every time on the development team (as it should be).
    You have the most unrealistic view of MMO development ever. Like...no offense but you would make a terrible game that would be impossible to balance. You're asking them to be perfect, which is the most unreasonable expectation ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Market a game like that and keep that promise you will have the happiest customer base in the industry.
    Get back to me when you find perfection and we'll talk about how this is a possibility. Until then, I'll continue to tell you that you have the most unreasonable expectations ever.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    1. You seem like you've never been bullied in your life or been the victim of any prolonged, sustained harassment. While I'm glad for you, it's clearly coloring your perception of the affects it can have on a person.

    The kinds hoping that appealing to common human decency may actually do something...or the kind who want to let others know how bad it really is for them in the hopes that the industry can try to figure out how to combat this kind of behavior.

    And what caused it to escalate to this level of harassment? I'm pretty sure it was "Gamers" on social media...considering they're the ones who started engaging in this horrible behavior...I don't really see where else to lay the blame, because nothing justifies this kind of behavior. Ever.
    I'm happy you put that between quotes. People like that don't represent us. They're raging consumers. They are, actually, the ones that kept flooding the Blizzard forums with bile day in day out until they got what they wanted, then..silence..for a few days, then the next patch hit and they had something new to demand.

    People like that are mentally ill. They live in a fantasy world where they can just demand cake, get cake and eat cake, after which they refuse to tip the waiter, because it's their job to serve and take shit for granted. That is actually our new gamer generation and in a sense, it's a self-fulfilling nightmare.

    In the past, developers had a public that was [gamer]. Being gamer meant giving feedback, often no less than an A4's length, talking in a civilized and objective manner about the game they were following. Gamers didn't shun difficulty, they didn't demand instant gratification, they wanted a good challenge. Because gaming equals challenge.

    Developers, over the years, that saw their market growing, thought; "Shit, we need to somehow grab the attention of these new types of gamers and we need to keep them!". So they started shifting development from making games hard, to making games fullfil the demand of the largest public in gaming, which is currently no longer the [gamer]. This even applies to myself, since we all grew accustomed to "Dungeon Finders" and "instant travel".

    Developers lost sight of the slippery slope they were taking. The journey to truely fullfil every wish a customer, consumer, might have, has brought down any and all resolve to occasionally give the public the finger. It's not done anymore. During WoW's first two years, Blizzard simply said; "No we won't do it". Today, "Management" makes the calls based on annual revenue. No longer based on ideology of making a fantastic product.

    And now some of you will come and twist what I'm trying to get across here. You will start to argue, that I can't possibly blame the developers for the behaviour of these idiots. And I can't. I'm not. But we in IT have a saying, it's goes a little like this: "Don't fix it too well". That phrase stands for everything you need to keep in mind when dealing with a client, or even a simple user. The moment you give them more than what they expected (which gives both you and them a good feeling), you add to their expectancy level. So when you fail to give them what they expected the next time, you have an escalation in your mailbox, because you didn't do what was expected.

    Game developers have been doing exactly this. They give the consumer a reason to expect to be able to get whatever they ask and when it turns out that they didn't get it exactly the way they expected, it turns red in front of their eyes and they go raving mad. It's deplorable behaviour, but it's a selfsustained system of giving and giving and giving and never once, saying; "STOP, we can't do this".

    I can't wait for the moment where it becomes industry standard (again) to be able to come out and say; "FUCK YOU consumer. Have an ASCI painting of our corporate middle fingers"

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    Edgy.

    I did google it, and failed to see how that case is relevant to this discussion, which apparently is about "cyber bullying", not rape and bullying in real life. The case of Parsons you mentioned was 100% real life, and not ones and zeroes, "angry words" on a forum or twitter.

    I'm trying to figure what went trough your head when you wrote that, other than feigning righteous indignation.
    Bullying can be JUST WORDS. Whether those words are spoken, written, or typed doesn't matter if they elicit a similar response from the victim.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  7. #167
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    1. The writers in DA2 did a pretty mediocre job.

    2. #1 is not worthy of a death threat. They do however deserve to lose the honor of writing for the franchise again.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post


    You have the most unrealistic view of MMO development ever. Like...no offense but you would make a terrible game that would be impossible to balance. You're asking them to be perfect, which is the most unreasonable expectation ever.



    Get back to me when you find perfection and we'll talk about how this is a possibility. Until then, I'll continue to tell you that you have the most unreasonable expectations ever.
    Simple fact;100% of player nerfs game industry wide are 100% avoidable with proper testing.

    Today they have test servers and data analysis from which is researchable at blazing speed so it is not an unreasonable expectation to get most everything right prior to going live.

    The problem is either the laziness to use those tools or the incompetence to comprehend the end results from those tools and discern a proper corrective action, I simply would not tolerate either.

    What does get though still does not require nerfs, you use a buff only approach, take the CoD guns for example, they should have never been nerfed, other weapons should have been buffed to be in line with them, if players are dying to quickly as a result then you buff armor and health to offset it, you never ever have to take away. Granted it will be more work for the developer but they are the ones that need to pay the price for their mistakes in the first place, not the player so to bad.

  9. #169
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Simple fact;100% of player nerfs game industry wide are 100% avoidable with proper testing.

    Today they have test servers and data analysis from which is researchable at blazing speed so it is not an unreasonable expectation to get most everything right prior to going live.

    The problem is either the laziness to use those tools or the incompetence to comprehend the end results from those tools and discern a proper corrective action, I simply would not tolerate either.

    What does get though still does not require nerfs, you use a buff only approach, take the CoD guns for example, they should have never been nerfed, other weapons should have been buffed to be in line with them, if players are dying to quickly as a result then you buff armor and health to offset it, you never ever have to take away. Granted it will be more work for the developer but they are the ones that need to pay the price for their mistakes in the first place, not the player so to bad.
    The number of variables to take into consideration when trying to balance anything in any game are countless. People are going to complain about imbalance in many games anyways. Hell, I remember growing up and my friends would complain that I used Donatello in the first TMNT game; they called it cheap and unfair, etc. It wasn't even a competitive or multiplayer game. That's just the way some gamers are.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Simple fact;100% of player nerfs game industry wide are 100% avoidable with proper testing.
    Design the perfect game. Seriously, go out and tell the publishers that you can make a perfect multiplayer game that will never need a single balance change ever if they give you the resources.

    Then enjoy having them laugh at you because it's an impossible task. Perfection doesn't exist. Seriously. Nerfs sometimes happen, and it's not the end of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    What does get though still does not require nerfs, you use a buff only approach, take the CoD guns for example, they should have never been nerfed, other weapons should have been buffed to be in line with them
    So instead of making extremely minor changes to 2-3 weapons, they now need to do minor changes to the dozens and dozens of other weapons? That makes zero sense from a development perspective as it takes infinitely more time.

    And what happens if one of the guns they buff ends up being a bit too overbuffed? Guess we'd better buff all the other guns to compensate. Oh, and that accidentally buffed another gun a hair too much, better buff everything else again!

    See where I'm going with that?

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Thanks for the free demonstration of internet bully.

    There's a lot of fucked up and outright insane people around who are stalking game developers IRL and even sending them death threats. Those things need to be taken seriously.
    How was that bullying?
    huehuehuehue

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Simple fact;100% of player nerfs game industry wide are 100% avoidable with proper testing
    "Proper testing" as you put it doesn't happen until the masses get a hold of it. You can't hire enough testers to test balance the way that a released game is "tested". You can get it close maybe but someone will find an imbalance somewhere.

  13. #173
    It's easy to criticize.. but hard to actually come out with an actual solution.. That's the main difference between critic and designer.. And that's why some QAs never turn into designers.

  14. #174
    People need to control themselves better over the internet and behave or we're going to start getting rules and censorship forced on it. Constant harassment and cruelty is exactly the fuel someone would need to convince others that a free internet is not a good idea.

    Granted, I still think expressing negative opinions about things over the internet had done wonders to hasten the effect of word of mouth in rewarding those who make good products and punishing those who don't. People just need to calm down and realize that their favorite game franchise going a new direction does not warrant death threats and constant harassment of customers.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2013-08-26 at 06:41 AM.

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