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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Right, so I'm going to go out on the streets and wave my flag, with a hundred others and every single fucking body in the world is automatically going to do something. Right? Like they do for Femen, Like they do for Fanatic Animal Rights groups. Not even Green Peace, an organization that's making more money than the average quote 100 company has ever been able to stop animal abuse and killing. Because most of it is hidden.

    You can't go out on the streets and protest, when you're not protesting against or for a public social problem. People out in the streets, they think their kids are saints. Their kids would never do that on the internet. Go talk to teachers, my sister is one. Parents refuse to see that their kids aren't special (in the good sense).

    So, you think you're going to be able to stop me from insulting someone on the internet because you're parading around with your flags and papers and pamphlets? You think anyone in the world gives a fuck about your online social problems while there's still cancer to beat? While Africa is still dying to aids? while there is still racism to fight?

    Actual threats!

    Out of a 1000 people making threats on the internet, only a pointpercent might go through with it. Raising awareness is a good thing, but just like incest, just like rape, just like childabuse, just like pedophily, it's hidden crime. You can't fix it by protesting.
    So you think the answer is just to say "We can't do anything about it"? I'm not saying you need to go protest out on the streets. I'm just saying you need to not have the attitude that it's ok.

  2. #142
    Theres been death threats ETC prior to the internet, so lets not isolate it to social media/twitter, its simply made these types of harassment more accessible. In a very real sense, I don't think I've ever read a story of a video game dev or producer being killed or attacked by an irate fan. It certainly seems likely if you think about it that SOMETHING has happened at some point, but again, we'd see 30 posts in this thread talking about a dev that got a brick thrown at him.

    But at the same time, lets take into account that trolling might actually enhance the products we're seeing. A developer might be worried they are alienating the audience their game originally attracted, and out of fear, take a second look at their game and put out a better product. Of course, reaching this result through fear certainly isn't ideal, but its a mixed bag.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    So you think the answer is just to say "We can't do anything about it"? I'm not saying you need to go protest out on the streets. I'm just saying you need to not have the attitude that it's ok.
    I thought I made pretty clear in my second post that I'm not ok with it. My kids won't be taught this kind of shit and since I work in IT as a programmer/scripter, I sure as hell can keep track of what they do if I want to. So consider me one pebble in the pond. But that's what it is; a pond. The problem is that it's the pond growing, not the pebbles increasing. The reason for this is the internet.

    And stop asking me rhetorical questions that even a 10 year old kid can answer by reading through the lines. You're just backing out of responding to what I actually write. Fucking lame.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I thought I made pretty clear in my second post that I'm not ok with it. My kids won't be taught this kind of shit and since I work in IT as a programmer/scripter, I sure as hell can keep track of what they do if I want to. So consider me one pebble in the pond. But that's what it is a pond. The problem is that it's the pond growing, not the pebbles increasing. The reason for this is the internet.
    As long as you have a complacent attitude towards it, you're as good as ok with it.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    As long as you have a complacent attitude towards it, you're as good as ok with it.
    Right dude, tomorrow, I'm going to work and when I get there, I'm going to slap my colleagues on the shoulders and look them in the eyes, deeply. I will then tell them in a deep, compelling voice, that; "internet harassment is BAD HMKEEYYY!?"

    I will report back once I'm out of my white robe.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2013-08-21 at 07:57 PM.

  6. #146
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    When you need to have a public social media account for your job, you can't just "walk away" like that. If you "walk away", you're quitting your job. That's kinda not an acceptable "solution" either.
    That's only valid point I can think of and even then there's couple issues. If you can't take the regural harassment from internet you're not great at the job.
    Also if you're a person whos harassment harms game development, your job is to develop a game not read twitter.

    On the polygon article "Since Toulouse's departure, no one has stepped into those very public shoes. So while Xbox Live certainly still has a sheriff, it's not a person as approachable or harassable." If the job gathers a lot of heat the smart thing to do is this. In the end companies need to think about who can say what and how they communicate with the public because of the inevitable harassment.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by kazih View Post
    That's only valid point I can think of and even then there's couple issues. If you can't take the regural harassment from internet you're not great at the job.
    Excuse me? So you're supposed to be fine with constant harassment and threats to the safety of you and your family as part of the job description? Um...fucking NOPE. Trolls are expected, but having thousands of people sending you graphic threats and extremely rude insults because you had the audacity to make a few minor changes to some guns in a video game is not acceptable. It is never acceptable. And nobody should have to put up with that. It's not a statement of how good someone is at their job or not if they get upset by it. Rational, normal human beings get upset when they're harassed. That's normal. Having people threaten your children because they didn't like that story you wrote in that one video game? Again, nor normal and being upset about it says nothing of the ability of the employee being harassed to do her job.

    Quote Originally Posted by kazih View Post
    Also if you're a person whos harassment harms game development, your job is to develop a game not read twitter.
    When part of your job is to interact with the community and keep them updated, and you do so on your Twitter account (the same one you use for friends etc.), then you kinda have to deal with Twitter. And mind you, these threats come in from other sources too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kazih View Post
    On the polygon article "Since Toulouse's departure, no one has stepped into those very public shoes. So while Xbox Live certainly still has a sheriff, it's not a person as approachable or harassable." If the job gathers a lot of heat the smart thing to do is this.
    So the "smart" thing to do is throw in the towel and let the disgusting behavior of some horrible individuals slide? I fucking disagree in the strongest of terms. Those in the public eye at dev companies are important and are responsible for communicating a lot with their respective communities and being a voice for the company. Removing them creates an atmosphere where gamers are far less connected to the games they play and the people who creates them, which is a damn fucking shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by kazih View Post
    In the end companies need to think about who can say what and how they communicate with the public because of the inevitable harassment.
    So someone simply saying, "Hey guys, patch notes for the most recent CoD patch here." and then clarifying, "Yes, we increased the time to zoom on X gun by .2 seconds and reduced reload time for Y gun by .1 second" warrants hundreds/thousands of threatening messages and sustained harassment? Like...really? Because you didn't like the story that someone participated in writing, you'll track her down and then threaten her children and family? Like...really? Because someone says something you don't agree with you're going to tell him in graphic detail how you want to murder them? Like...really?

    I'm honestly blown away by what you're saying...Like...I can't believe that you're basically saying, "Yeah it happens, it's fine. Sack up or get out."

  8. #148
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    "smart" thing to do is throw in the towel and let the disgusting behavior of some horrible individuals slide? Those in the public eye at dev companies are important and are responsible for communicating a lot with their respective communities and being a voice for the company.

    So someone simply saying, "Hey guys, patch notes for the most recent CoD patch here." and then clarifying, "Yes, we increased the time to zoom on X gun by .2 seconds and reduced reload time for Y gun by .1 second" warrants hundreds/thousands of threatening messages and sustained harassment? Like...really? Because you didn't like the story that someone participated in writing, you'll track her down and then threaten her children and family? Like...really? Because someone says something you don't agree with you're going to tell him in graphic detail how you want to murder them? Like...really?

    I'm honestly blown away by what you're saying...Like...I can't believe that you're basically saying, "Yeah it happens, it's fine. Sack up or get out."
    If you are a face of a company your job description includes dealing with trolls. Creating a system where angry ppl can't target their anger at a specific individual is very useful if you have to announce things that make some ppl angry. Blizzard is good at this. All that "liek..really" stuff -> people play a game where they win by making the other player angry, everything goes and best way to deal with it is monitor and maintain the enviroment the dicussion takes place in. Not go "trolls are mean" and call the police.
    The harassment isn't "fine" and companies are free to take steps to reduce it. It only becomes an issue when you have these overly sensitive people putting themselves out there for the wolves.

  9. #149
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    Of course you 'can' grow a thicker skin.

    But the response to that is 1) Why should you? and 2) It goes way, way beyond just petty name calling (of the type you can just shrug off).

    For example over here in the UK, there was a woman which started a campaign for more women to be on the back of a bank note, now who really could object to that?

    Lots of people did, and sent her death threats, and rape threats...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...h-threats.html

    I mean, this is the level of people we're dealing with here... you can just shrug it off with 'get a thicker skin', but again, why should she, and some of them were getting pretty serious..
    just to add, you realise whos currently on the bank note is a women right?
    the abuse makes no sense as well as the campaign for jane austin, since the money tends to have royal faces....
    pointless campaign and pointless abuse for this one, all i can say, this women deserves a trolling for different reasons, her intelligence, just proves she hasnt looked at a bank note in recent times

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    WOOOOOOOOOOW..WOW WOW WOW. WTF?

    W
    T
    F?

    Suddenly this is about racism? I would have hated being back in the 60's. Because I'm not a racist. I don't care whether you're blue, black, white, purple, yellow, green, confetti. I don't care. The only colors I don't like are the ones s on a clowns face. Actually, I like my women slightly mixed blood. Hope you don't mind.

    But this isn't about racism, this is about global law. There are no states on the internet. There are no countries, on the internet. There are no police on the internet. So before we start arresting every fucking body that says nasty things on the internet, start looking at reality. This is not an issue that can be solved by politics. This is about mentality. And that's the problem. Public mentality, like racism, is easy to thumb down once law enforces it. Anonymous mentality that hasn't got anyone looking over a shoulder can't be rooted out. In fact, this issue persists in todays racism (since we're talking about that) through small splintergroups of old racist parties, like the nazi's, like the KKK. It's hard to deal with the things you can't see and in the case of the internet, it's hard to deal with the distinction between real and emo-raging from some kid.

    There are no Harrison Fords (movie : 42) that silently though persistently root out evil.

    EDit: Unsure whether you meant me as the black man or me as the white racist, but I assumed the bad side. That way you can say you didn't mean it the way I read it
    I meant it in the sense of something which is negative which you can accept (but not approve of), or you can try to do something about.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post


    To those who say that this is a thing, you probably somehow went trough school with a cloak of invisibility, or you were lucky. Real bullying gets people to kill themselves each year. This is NOT real bullying. I repeat, this is not, real bullying. Some kid who is angry that you nerfed his gun in call of duty isn't going to do anything to you, except press a few keys and write some dumb shit. Like the LoL player who got thrown in jail for saying he's gonna shoot a school and eat children.
    Lol at the hypocrisy of saying bullying on the internet isn't a real thing but in real life it is.

    Personally, I'm on the stance that there's no such thing as 'a victim of bullying', and that there's no excuse to go to the extreme of taking your own life or whatever "because I was bullied a bit", but that's an ENTIRELY different subject so we shouldn't really lay into it here.

    ANYWAYS, on topic-

    This isn't really "new". Game Devs have delayed projects or done things based on people 'le trolzing xd' them in the past, so I don't see how it's suddenly super note-worthy and current now.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorianrage View Post
    just to add, you realise whos currently on the bank note is a women right?
    the abuse makes no sense as well as the campaign for jane austin, since the money tends to have royal faces....
    pointless campaign and pointless abuse for this one, all i can say, this women deserves a trolling for different reasons, her intelligence, just proves she hasnt looked at a bank note in recent times
    Um no, it doesn't. The monarch is always on the front of the bank note, which at the moment is obviously QEII, but the face on the BACK has always been various celebrated individuals from British History. At the moment, it is only Elizabeth Fry which is the only women on the back (of a £5 pound) note, but that was due to be replaced by Winston Churchill, leaving no women... so hence the campaign for a woman on the back of another note..

  13. #153
    Both sides are wrong. People like Bioware shouldn't be surprised when their shitty design decisions create a backlash. Anyone with half a brain cell could've seen that. On the other hands, fans do need to reign themselves in. They rarely have a clue what a good game is about and their wishes are more often not going to make the game any better, because they're basically selfish and only want their individual wishes fulfilled. When a lot of them have the same egoistical wish, that is incompatible with the interest of a gaming community, you have something like WoW these days, where features are implemented to basically reduce the little social interaction there is left between gamers. Only to have them see "the content". The result is that what was once a social game is now an arcade version of it with a lobby, quick gameplay without much social interaction and next to no interest in the community.

    Developers need to stop sucking up to fans, they need to take a stand and say "This is the game, this is how it's going to be and if you don't like it, fuck off" and gamers need to learn that they aren't developing the game. They're not entitled to shit, if they don't like it, they can fuck off to another game instead of ruining it all for everyone else.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Both sides are wrong. People like Bioware shouldn't be surprised when their shitty design decisions create a backlash. Anyone with half a brain cell could've seen that. On the other hands, fans do need to reign themselves in. They rarely have a clue what a good game is about and their wishes are more often not going to make the game any better, because they're basically selfish and only want their individual wishes fulfilled. When a lot of them have the same egoistical wish, that is incompatible with the interest of a gaming community, you have something like WoW these days, where features are implemented to basically reduce the little social interaction there is left between gamers. Only to have them see "the content". The result is that what was once a social game is now an arcade version of it with a lobby, quick gameplay without much social interaction and next to no interest in the community.

    Developers need to stop sucking up to fans, they need to take a stand and say "This is the game, this is how it's going to be and if you don't like it, fuck off" and gamers need to learn that they aren't developing the game. They're not entitled to shit, if they don't like it, they can fuck off to another game instead of ruining it all for everyone else.
    Nothing stops you from socializing, by the way. You can stop blaming the devs.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Excuse me? So you're supposed to be fine with constant harassment and threats to the safety of you and your family as part of the job description? Um...fucking NOPE. Trolls are expected, but having thousands of people sending you graphic threats and extremely rude insults because you had the audacity to make a few minor changes to some guns in a video game is not acceptable. It is never acceptable. And nobody should have to put up with that. It's not a statement of how good someone is at their job or not if they get upset by it. Rational, normal human beings get upset when they're harassed. That's normal. Having people threaten your children because they didn't like that story you wrote in that one video game? Again, nor normal and being upset about it says nothing of the ability of the employee being harassed to do her job.
    You need to take in to account what led to it, why was it the seemingly last straw with many players, and if 1000's of them are so upset they reach to over the top harassment, then it is sure bet 10's of 1000's of them, perhaps even 100's of 1000's of them are just as upset, they just did not go to that extreme to show it. If that many people are unhappy is that not a statement of how poor Devs are at doing their jobs?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Developers need to stop sucking up to fans, they need to take a stand and say "This is the game, this is how it's going to be and if you don't like it, fuck off" and gamers need to learn that they aren't developing the game. They're not entitled to shit, if they don't like it, they can fuck off to another game instead of ruining it all for everyone else.
    That is like buying a house and the contractor saying I am going to come in when ever I want and make changes to your floor plan when ever it want you don't like it, go but another house elsewhere or buying a new car and the dealer saying we are to come by change your rims, switch out your seats, re-paint your car when ever we want, any color we want, you don't like it go buy another one from someone else.

    What you did hit on is the source of the problem, elevating the status of the developer over the consumer, sorry but it does not work that way.

    The reality is what developers, want, think, feel as far as it comes to a game is meaningless, they are insignificant, the only thing that matters is what the consumer wants, thinks, feels as far as the said game because with out them they don't have a game to develop, they don't have a job.

    What we have in the gaming industry, particularly the MMO genre, is the complete reverse, where developers are demi-gods that can do what ever they want when ever they feel like it, what they want, think, feel is priority one, where the consumer desires are insignificant and they should be thankful for any morsels their benefactors see fit to hand out.

    Until the developers come to grips with the fact that they just can't take dumps on their consumers at will, they are not gods, their consumers are creatures of habit, who don't like changes, that nerfs are bad, should be avoided at all cost, certainly not used as an easy out button for their mistakes it will never get better.

  16. #156
    Another reason not to trust the gamers when it comes to making decisions about whats good or bad in a game. Let the dev's do their own game imo.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So the "smart" thing to do is throw in the towel and let the disgusting behavior of some horrible individuals slide? I fucking disagree in the strongest of terms. Those in the public eye at dev companies are important and are responsible for communicating a lot with their respective communities and being a voice for the company. Removing them creates an atmosphere where gamers are far less connected to the games they play and the people who creates them, which is a damn fucking shame.
    Yes, it's actually extremely clear what the smart thing to do is. If you CAN identify and punish them you do it, if that's not possible (the usual scenario) you don't give any SIGN you care.

    There's no middle ground, it's either A or B and anything in between is wrong.
    All the feedback they should be receiving is message deleted/account suspended/authorities informed.
    And this article... are you fucking kidding me? What kind of a moron thinks it's a good idea to let internet trolls know the person they harass might quit the job if they push harder?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtimmy View Post
    This thread seems to be populated by two primary groups:

    1.) People who actually took the time to read and understand the article.

    2.) People who are part of the problem discussed by the article.

    I'm all for having a "thick skin," but honestly, this isn't a case of being trolled in WoW trade chat or something. It's a case of someone having information such as your real name, in addition to where you work or where you live and issuing threats against you. Not just harsh criticism about games, but actual threats that transcend the subject of games entirely. This is a whole different level. A lot of them may simply be idle threats, but that's almost not even the point. The point is the impact those threats have, and the fact that you can't take them lightly considering the circumstances.
    What caused it to escalate to that point?

    Here is a hint; was not the player base's actions.

    The fix is not game companies going to war with their customer base, it is not stomping their first amendments rights in the ground, it is game companies changing the way they do business.

    If I was developing a game and wanted to compete in the MMO market I would simply vow no nerfts ever, if it is in the game it stays in the game, we will never burden our player base with mistakes we make. I would place the burden of getting it right the first time, every time on the development team (as it should be).

    Market a game like that and keep that promise you will have the happiest customer base in the industry.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Personally, I'm on the stance that there's no such thing as 'a victim of bullying', and that there's no excuse to go to the extreme of taking your own life or whatever "because I was bullied a bit", but that's an ENTIRELY different subject so we shouldn't really lay into it here.

    This isn't really "new". Game Devs have delayed projects or done things based on people 'le trolzing xd' them in the past, so I don't see how it's suddenly super note-worthy and current now.
    1. You seem like you've never been bullied in your life or been the victim of any prolonged, sustained harassment. While I'm glad for you, it's clearly coloring your perception of the affects it can have on a person.

    2. Did you even read the article/ It has nothing to do with delaying a project or changing something based on "le trolzing xd", but everything to do with the personal impact that the sustained harassment they receive can have on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    You need to take in to account what led to it, why was it the seemingly last straw with many players, and if 1000's of them are so upset they reach to over the top harassment, then it is sure bet 10's of 1000's of them, perhaps even 100's of 1000's of them are just as upset, they just did not go to that extreme to show it. If that many people are unhappy is that not a statement of how poor Devs are at doing their jobs?
    They're doing their jobs because that's what they're paid to do and they don't want to lose them. They're doing their jobs because they're working in an industry they love on projects they love. However it's gotten to the point where this kind of harassment from "gamers" is causing them to seriously question whether or not they want to stay in the industry. I don't see what's confusing about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by abijax View Post
    Yes, it's actually extremely clear what the smart thing to do is. If you CAN identify and punish them you do it, if that's not possible (the usual scenario) you don't give any SIGN you care.
    Oddly enough, you rarely see those being harassed complain about it. I remember in the CoD incident the guy made a comment on how he was blown away over how angry people were, but that was about all he said publicly on the issue. It was gaming news sites that brought up the story and wrote about it to discuss the issue, as they should have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by abijax View Post
    And this article... are you fucking kidding me? What kind of a moron thinks it's a good idea to let internet trolls know the person they harass might quit the job if they push harder?
    The kinds hoping that appealing to common human decency may actually do something...or the kind who want to let others know how bad it really is for them in the hopes that the industry can try to figure out how to combat this kind of behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    What caused it to escalate to that point?

    Here is a hint; was not the player base's actions.

    The fix is not game companies going to war with their customer base, it is not stomping their first amendments rights in the ground, it is game companies changing the way they do business.
    Fun fact: First Amendment rights don't extend to countries that aren't America, or to the internet.

    And what caused it to escalate to this level of harassment? I'm pretty sure it was "Gamers" on social media...considering they're the ones who started engaging in this horrible behavior...I don't really see where else to lay the blame, because nothing justifies this kind of behavior. Ever.

    And how can they "change the way they do business" to the affect that when they make extremely minor balance changes to a few guns in CoD and let people know, the guy in charge of balance patches gets hundreds of threats to his life and well being? Like, what's supposed to change in that other than to simply not touch the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    If I was developing a game and wanted to compete in the MMO market I would simply vow no nerfts ever, if it is in the game it stays in the game, we will never burden our player base with mistakes we make. I would place the burden of getting it right the first time, every time on the development team (as it should be).
    You have the most unrealistic view of MMO development ever. Like...no offense but you would make a terrible game that would be impossible to balance. You're asking them to be perfect, which is the most unreasonable expectation ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Market a game like that and keep that promise you will have the happiest customer base in the industry.
    Get back to me when you find perfection and we'll talk about how this is a possibility. Until then, I'll continue to tell you that you have the most unreasonable expectations ever.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    1. You seem like you've never been bullied in your life or been the victim of any prolonged, sustained harassment. While I'm glad for you, it's clearly coloring your perception of the affects it can have on a person.

    The kinds hoping that appealing to common human decency may actually do something...or the kind who want to let others know how bad it really is for them in the hopes that the industry can try to figure out how to combat this kind of behavior.

    And what caused it to escalate to this level of harassment? I'm pretty sure it was "Gamers" on social media...considering they're the ones who started engaging in this horrible behavior...I don't really see where else to lay the blame, because nothing justifies this kind of behavior. Ever.
    I'm happy you put that between quotes. People like that don't represent us. They're raging consumers. They are, actually, the ones that kept flooding the Blizzard forums with bile day in day out until they got what they wanted, then..silence..for a few days, then the next patch hit and they had something new to demand.

    People like that are mentally ill. They live in a fantasy world where they can just demand cake, get cake and eat cake, after which they refuse to tip the waiter, because it's their job to serve and take shit for granted. That is actually our new gamer generation and in a sense, it's a self-fulfilling nightmare.

    In the past, developers had a public that was [gamer]. Being gamer meant giving feedback, often no less than an A4's length, talking in a civilized and objective manner about the game they were following. Gamers didn't shun difficulty, they didn't demand instant gratification, they wanted a good challenge. Because gaming equals challenge.

    Developers, over the years, that saw their market growing, thought; "Shit, we need to somehow grab the attention of these new types of gamers and we need to keep them!". So they started shifting development from making games hard, to making games fullfil the demand of the largest public in gaming, which is currently no longer the [gamer]. This even applies to myself, since we all grew accustomed to "Dungeon Finders" and "instant travel".

    Developers lost sight of the slippery slope they were taking. The journey to truely fullfil every wish a customer, consumer, might have, has brought down any and all resolve to occasionally give the public the finger. It's not done anymore. During WoW's first two years, Blizzard simply said; "No we won't do it". Today, "Management" makes the calls based on annual revenue. No longer based on ideology of making a fantastic product.

    And now some of you will come and twist what I'm trying to get across here. You will start to argue, that I can't possibly blame the developers for the behaviour of these idiots. And I can't. I'm not. But we in IT have a saying, it's goes a little like this: "Don't fix it too well". That phrase stands for everything you need to keep in mind when dealing with a client, or even a simple user. The moment you give them more than what they expected (which gives both you and them a good feeling), you add to their expectancy level. So when you fail to give them what they expected the next time, you have an escalation in your mailbox, because you didn't do what was expected.

    Game developers have been doing exactly this. They give the consumer a reason to expect to be able to get whatever they ask and when it turns out that they didn't get it exactly the way they expected, it turns red in front of their eyes and they go raving mad. It's deplorable behaviour, but it's a selfsustained system of giving and giving and giving and never once, saying; "STOP, we can't do this".

    I can't wait for the moment where it becomes industry standard (again) to be able to come out and say; "FUCK YOU consumer. Have an ASCI painting of our corporate middle fingers"

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