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  1. #21
    No one is forcing you to run LFR or Flex, just run if you want to.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by superdooper View Post
    Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?
    If heroic raiders enjoy wiping 100+ times of a boss each tier, I don't know why they wouldn't enjoy killing it as much.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    No you go normal>heroic with maybe some lfr/flex at the start of the tier. LFR and flex is just for people who don't have time for a regular raidteam or for alts imo.
    Flex was also implemented for bad guilds who whined that normal Tot was too hard for them. Flex is a dumbed down version of Normal mode which only goes further showing how bad the player base is becoming. Whining that Normal (average) is too hard and having to make a handicapped version of Normal is sad in itself.

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    Last edited by Azshira; 2013-08-24 at 11:17 PM.

  4. #24
    I do not raid normal or Heroic. Can we please remove those 2 so I do not feel forced?
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  5. #25
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    LFR: Is for people who casually play yet want to see endgame content.
    Flex: Is for people who can't fill out a 25m spot or just an extra member that wants to tag along and the gear isn't better than normals
    Normal: Just normal 10m raiding. Nothing fancy but requires commitment
    Heroic: For people who want a challenge and commitment and dedication which the gear it offers is the best.

    Bottomline; no one is forcing you to do all 4. Each type of raid is targeted to certain people and normal's + hc's will always offer gear better than LFR and flex.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Flex was also implemented for bad guilds who whined that normal Tot was too hard for them. Flex is a dumbed down version of Normal mode which only goes further showing how bad the player base is becoming. Whining that Normal (average) is too hard and having to make a handicapped version of Normal is sad in itself.
    Not really. In days past 5% of the players raided. Now I think last I saw the numbers 20% are spread across LFR, Normal and HM. 5% of the player base is still good, it just so happens that there are more people raiding and some of those people are not the best at removing themselves from the fire in time.

    If the previous expectation was LFR>Normal>HM. the leap was TOO big between LFR and normal. Why they went and made a whole new difficulty instead of tuning normal down is beyond me.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  7. #27
    I wish they would replace LOLFR with Flex, but no, they won't do that.

  8. #28
    Dreadlord Csnyder's Avatar
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    maybe think it thru before you post next time, proof-reading helps too, might make some sense then

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by IIamaKing View Post
    Not really. In days past 5% of the players raided. Now I think last I saw the numbers 20% are spread across LFR, Normal and HM. 5% of the player base is still good, it just so happens that there are more people raiding and some of those people are not the best at removing themselves from the fire in time.

    If the previous expectation was LFR>Normal>HM. the leap was TOO big between LFR and normal. Why they went and made a whole new difficulty instead of tuning normal down is beyond me.
    There is no reason to tune already easy content down. Every single friend that had trouble with Tot, i could look at their logs and show them the problem or problems. Baddies doing half the dps/hps they should be doing or standing in fire while also doing bad numbers. I ran him through a full clear months ago when we did a alt run and showed him it really isnt that hard and that was with some new alts that still had some blues. Bad people make any content you put out difficult unless they nerf it by 30% which of course people think was a good raiding tier because it made them the illusion of being a good raider.

    Of course when the next tier came out with no nerfs they were again wiping and whined more. They had to make Flex because people said Normal was too hard,LOL,so they gave them Flex instead of nerfing Normals/Heroics.

    Now on the PTR I expect there to be a lot of bitching/whining because the fights are tuned nicely and should be a very challenging tier that some like while some will just whine it is too hard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    LFR: Is for people who casually play yet want to see endgame content.
    Flex: Is for people who can't fill out a 25m spot or just an extra member that wants to tag along and the gear isn't better than normals
    Normal: Just normal 10m raiding. Nothing fancy but requires commitment
    Heroic: For people who want a challenge and commitment and dedication which the gear it offers is the best.

    Bottomline; no one is forcing you to do all 4. Each type of raid is targeted to certain people and normal's + hc's will always offer gear better than LFR and flex.
    Ya Flex is only 540 gear and it is gated also. Most progression guilds are sitting at 545-550 already so unless it is a trinket that is incredible neither will matter for progression.

  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    There is no reason to tune already easy content down.
    You are right, but normal modes aren't easy, they aren't even normal, they are hard. Have been since T11.
    Every single friend that had trouble with Tot, i could look at their logs and show them the problem or problems.
    The fact that they weren't immediately apprent to the people struggling should be a clue as to the ease of solving the problems.
    Baddies doing half the dps/hps they should be doing or standing in fire while also doing bad numbers. I ran him through a full clear months ago when we did a alt run and showed him it really isnt that hard and that was with some new alts that still had some blues. Bad people make any content you put out difficult unless they nerf it by 30% which of course people think was a good raiding tier because it made them the illusion of being a good raider.
    Not a "good raider" just "a raider." Normals are overtuned, have been for too long.
    Of course when the next tier came out with no nerfs they were again wiping and whined more. They had to make Flex because people said Normal was too hard,LOL,so they gave them Flex instead of nerfing Normals/Heroics.

    Now on the PTR I expect there to be a lot of bitching/whining because the fights are tuned nicely and should be a very challenging tier that some like while some will just whine it is too hard.
    And they'd be right. Shits too hard for most people.

    If blizzard wants everyones endgame to be some sort of raiding, that raiding has to come in an actually dioable by normal people version, or it wont happen.

    No clue why they do what that, mind you. the best solution for the games sub level seems to be the TBC model, slightly altered - 21 days /played to hit level cap and don't bother making any raids.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by NoRest4Wicked View Post
    Yes and no. While right now, if you are in full HTF double upgraded gear you probably won't be looking at LFR much in 5.4 (depending on the 4pc/op trinkets I guess) you will next expansion. Anyone who is serious about progression is going to raid as much as possible to replace dungeon blues with much desired bonuses. Sure, no one makes you log into WoW, no one makes you read how to play, no one makes you prepare for raids with flasks, potions, food buffs. But why wouldn't you? Surely you would want to give you guild every edge you can personally contribute you to? I mean, there are 24 other people relying on you not to be a shit bag. Force? No. Expected? Sure, why not expect raiders to put in equal time and effort.
    no1 force them to go, if they want to be competative so they have to do some dedication

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Now on the PTR I expect there to be a lot of bitching/whining because the fights are tuned nicely and should be a very challenging tier that some like while some will just whine it is too hard.
    always the way, whiners whining. it's what they do! There are some people that just want to screw around, and have fun. And some who take it seriously and some who take it hardcore seriously and many iterations in between.

    Morale of the story is you can never make everyone happy, as much as blizzard tries to...
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    no1 force them to go, if they want to be competative so they have to do some dedication
    I'm not saying that having more content is bad. If I still raided HMs, I would still run LFR/Flex if there were odds and ends I still needed, or to gear up an offspec (and I wouldn't complain because having more things to occupy my time in game is a good thing). I'm simply saying that sure, no one is "forcing" you to do this - it's still a requirement to, as you said yourself, be competitive. What happens to players in guilds that are no longer playing competitive? They get benched or replaced.
    And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

  14. #34
    To be honest, flex raiding at it's fundamental level is what raiding should have been all along (in an ideal world). Adjusting difficulty to match the number of players involved, being able to run it multiple times per week although you only get gear from each boss once (wanted this for a long time for normal mode), and so on.

    Normal raiding is fine, heroic raiding is fine for those who can get to it. I'm not a huge fan of flex raiding being easier than normal with worse rewards, i'd have prefered flex tech being applied to normal mode (although not the dreaded LFR style loot). LFR is the twisted abomination that has no place in the game imo. I think flex, as it exists now, can serve the purpose LFR was meant to serve from the get go and there is no longer a needed for LFR. And i genuinely hope as flex popularity goes up and more people do that, less people do LFR.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Because Blizzard seemingly doesn't quite understand how their playerbase works.. or doesn't care. They seem to constantly go out of their way to try and get people to raid, which is, even with LFR still, an activity in the game with fairly low participation, yet they focus almost all of their efforts on raiding content. One must really ask theirselves: What the flipping hell is wrong with Blizzard, and why do they do this?
    I don't mean to start a discussion, but the opposite opinion must be presented: Raiding is the only reason WoW exists and Blizzard would have given up on the game long ago without it, let alone the fact that a lot of the Devs were avid raiders from previous games and may not have been interested in working on a game without raiding.

    Blizzard didn't get to the point of being a leader in the world of MMOs by ignoring important endgame content.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  16. #36
    LFR is for people who want a chance at maybe tier they are missing for 4 set, or just because they don't want to be constrained to a strict raid schedule.

    Flex will be for people who want chance at better gear/tier then LFR, and those who want more organised raiding which isn't forced to have 10/25 people on at all times to do so.

    Normal is for those who are in a semi organized group who want to clear the content and maybe go into heroics at some point depending on how they go.

    Heroic is for those more skilled and want to push themselves into harder content for better rewards.


    I will do LFR on all toons if i deem an item worth it, same as flex.... While i continue for heroic prog on my server with my main.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are right, but normal modes aren't easy, they aren't even normal, they are hard. Have been since T11.


    The fact that they weren't immediately apprent to the people struggling should be a clue as to the ease of solving the problems.


    Not a "good raider" just "a raider." Normals are overtuned, have been for too long.


    And they'd be right. Shits too hard for most people.

    If blizzard wants everyones endgame to be some sort of raiding, that raiding has to come in an actually dioable by normal people version, or it wont happen.

    No clue why they do what that, mind you. the best solution for the games sub level seems to be the TBC model, slightly altered - 21 days /played to hit level cap and don't bother making any raids.
    Sounds like someone who is set in his ways raiding as a social/casual guild unable or unwilling to make the changes needed to progress. Why is it so hard if people clear it in the first week? I hate to tell you this but you would expect more out of human beings brain than dying to the same thing every other pull.

    It is the GM's of guilds that dont progress that choose to wipe by keeping bad players in their raids. You are choosing to only have cleared a month ago because of the choices you make not Blizzard's. If people became better players and made better choices then they could stop looking for someone to blame because they fail at a game that is relatively easy.

    People do stagnant progression every tier blaming blizzard for everything while one look at their logs shows it isnt the content but the players numbers or lack of. If you choose to gear a bad player then you are choosing to slow yours and every guild members progression because of your unwillingness to make necessary changes.

    I applied this to a casual friend as he replaced two old time players with good players and is not 3/13H when they couldnt even clear normals before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    To be honest, flex raiding at it's fundamental level is what raiding should have been all along (in an ideal world). Adjusting difficulty to match the number of players involved, being able to run it multiple times per week although you only get gear from each boss once (wanted this for a long time for normal mode), and so on.

    Normal raiding is fine, heroic raiding is fine for those who can get to it. I'm not a huge fan of flex raiding being easier than normal with worse rewards, i'd have prefered flex tech being applied to normal mode (although not the dreaded LFR style loot). LFR is the twisted abomination that has no place in the game imo. I think flex, as it exists now, can serve the purpose LFR was meant to serve from the get go and there is no longer a needed for LFR. And i genuinely hope as flex popularity goes up and more people do that, less people do LFR.
    Flex will be gated and GC tweeted that it won't be easy so LFR will still be very popular. I know there are very few people in LFR that i would ever want to raid with so Flex might have a rough time at the start until people form the same raid groups each week but even then Flex will be gated so you can clear it in the first few weeks even if it easy.

  18. #38
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Solution: Normal -> Heroic and forget the rest.
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  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Sounds like someone who is set in his ways raiding as a social/casual guild unable or unwilling to make the changes needed to progress. Why is it so hard if people clear it in the first week? I hate to tell you this but you would expect more out of human beings brain than dying to the same thing every other pull.
    Why would you be so anti empirical? Most people who go raiding die to shit over and over again. They always have. The people who learn, can control their toon and put out good numbers etc are the unusual ones. Like I said, if blizzard want everyones wow to be based around raiding, they have to design it for the vast bulk of people who actually play the game - mostly firestanding low dps/low hps, badly organised clickers.
    It is the GM's of guilds that dont progress that choose to wipe by keeping bad players in their raids. You are choosing to only have cleared a month ago because of the choices you make not Blizzard's. If people became better players and made better choices then they could stop looking for someone to blame because they fail at a game that is relatively easy.
    Actually we took two months off because two of our guildies got married. (We are still ahead of the curve and in the upper crust of raiders, btw.)
    People do stagnant progression every tier blaming blizzard for everything while one look at their logs shows it isnt the content but the players numbers or lack of. If you choose to gear a bad player then you are choosing to slow yours and every guild members progression because of your unwillingness to make necessary changes.
    Maybe, just maybe I'm more bothered about my guidlies than I am our progression. And so are the other people who have been doing this with me since vanilla. It's not my fault you act like a sociopath and think it's the only way to play.
    I applied this to a casual friend as he replaced two old time players with good players and is not 3/13H when they couldnt even clear normals before.
    "They" still can't clear normals. Booting people who don't measure up doesn't actually get them raiding. If you, Bob and John want to raid and you kick Bob and John, 2/3rds of you still aren't raiding. If Bob and John still want to raid, they are going to need a brand new mode in order to keep subbed. Or, another way, your toxic "kick the noobs" attitude is why we have LFR and flexi.

    In fact, I think blizzard needs as many people as possible raiding in order to justify spending all that cash on it.

    I'm going flexi in 5.4 I can take my friends, drink beer and have a laugh. If you think it's not the right attitude to take towards a social entertainment, a game, I couldn't give two curly turds. Have fun.
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  20. #40
    Every single friend that had trouble with Tot, i could look at their logs and show them the problem or problems.
    The fact that they weren't immediately apprent to the people struggling should be a clue as to the ease of solving the problems.

    Actually He knew the problem but was hoping the player would become better as he was a long time raider/s. He sends me tells and links me numbers and i link ours on our alt run showing him it isnt gear as the people that used to be in his guild would say my dps is going to be so much better once i get this piece of gear and so on. So he geared them up and they still didnt pull good numbers so as a last resort I joined on a alt and another friend of mine who wasnt geared but was a good player. We both did much better than his raiders who had much more gear and he demoted the 2 people and is now 3/13H. He too blamed Blizzard for content being too diffcult until the first night we raided where we walked through Normals with no problem. In vent he said i cant believe we wiped on that for months when we full cleared the first night with two lesser geared players as the other two were in fact holding them back. He knew they were but has a big heart but now holds everyone accountable for their performance and runs a 2 person bench if someone makes mistakes over and over.

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