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  1. #561
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Out of curiosity, can I ask, why you don't just rotate? I mean it can't be all that fun having to pug random people from trade or cancelling the raid, just cause some of your raiders won't take the bench for one or two bosses?
    We in particular don't rotate because we don't have the people; we either have our core 10, some people that aren't always on (friends/ex raiders who are casual now) or just people who aren't geared enough (fresh 90s, etc.). I've wanted to press the issue of recruiting rotational people, but the idea seems like a foreign concept to the other officers perhaps due to bad past experiences; as I previously said I recall a hunter from a prior guild being kicked due to volunteering to be rotated out for fights where he didn't need any loot, but expecting/demanding to be there for bosses he needed loot from.

    Honestly I can't answer that question because I've been rotated out when I was mainspec DPS (including a guild's first Nefarian kill in T11 ), and yeah it sucked but I was okay with it after a while, but I think there's a fine line between everyone knowing "It's okay to sit out for a boss if you don't need anything" compared to the perception that if you're sat, it's because you're being replaced or because you screwed up. Our guild, though not my decision as I've only recently been an officer, has usually given the perception that if you were asked to sit out for a fight it was because you were underperforming and we didn't want to wipe on a "farm" boss, not because you didn't need anything and someone else did, and chances are you weren't coming back in the raid that night (or for the rest of the week). So that might be why I have such a bad view of rotation/standby/bench, because in my guild it means "We're bringing in someone better than you to kill this boss". I also think it's the perception that you need to be there for every boss because you're a "core raider", either for a drop that might be useful or just the VP.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-04 at 05:34 PM.
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  2. #562
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    We in particular don't rotate because we don't have the people; we either have our core 10, some people that aren't always on (friends/ex raiders who are casual now) or just people who aren't geared enough (fresh 90s, etc.). I've wanted to press the issue of recruiting rotational people, but the idea seems like a foreign concept to the other officers perhaps due to bad past experiences; as I previously said I recall a hunter from a prior guild being kicked due to volunteering to be rotated out for fights where he didn't need any loot, but expecting/demanding to be there for bosses he needed loot from.

    Honestly I can't answer that question because I've been rotated out when I was mainspec DPS (including a guild's first Nefarian kill in T11 ), and yeah it sucked but I was okay with it after a while, but I think there's a fine line between everyone knowing "It's okay to sit out for a boss if you don't need anything" compared to the perception that if you're sat, it's because you're being replaced or because you screwed up. Our guild, though not my decision as I've only recently been an officer, has usually given the perception that if you were asked to sit out for a fight it was because you were underperforming and we didn't want to wipe on a "farm" boss, not because you didn't need anything and someone else did, and chances are you weren't coming back in the raid that night (or for the rest of the week). So that might be why I have such a bad view of rotation/standby/bench, because in my guild it means "We're bringing in someone better than you to kill this boss". I also think it's the perception that you need to be there for every boss because you're a "core raider", either for a drop that might be useful or just the VP.
    Yeah okay, I get that. I mean, my guild does that as well. If someone, for whatever the reason, is playing like shit and preventing us from getting a kill, we'll swap that person out for someone else. And I do get, that there's a big difference between casual guilds and heroic guilds. But to me it sounds a bit like your leadership (leadership in general) needs to make some things clear to their guildies. I mean, we have it written down in our guild "rules"/guidelines/info how we do things. That way people know this, when they apply and therefore won't complain when we rotate them out - regardless of the reason.

    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.

  3. #563
    Why are people so upset that people who aren't them have more play options?

  4. #564
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.
    Honestly I don't know. I don't think the leadership would even entertain the idea, to be honest. If we did it and treated people equal as far as rotating, I think it could work, but there are always exceptions (e.g. we only have two tanks, so we are always going to be there and never rotate, and if one of us isn't there it's pretty much no raid. Same pretty much for our healers outside of one going DPS for a 2-heal fight) so what it would really boil down to is "DPS can/will be rotated in on an as-needed basis" which I'm sure wouldn't sit well with people.

    That said though I almost 100% agree with you that we SHOULD have rotating people. For instance, one of our main healers is on vacation until the end of September. We have nobody to replace him, because we don't have any other healers that are available and/or because of gear. So we are pretty much DOA until around October to even attempt Normal modes as we won't have a key person. If we had a rotating group of raiders, we could bring someone else in to try Normal, which might annoy that healer since he wasn't there for any kills/loot, but we would be able to raid instead of likely not being able to do anything.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-04 at 07:17 PM.
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  5. #565
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post

    Again Injin, you assume (and you might be right), that all Normal mode guilds will threat their 11th, 12th, 13th player as a standby who will sit out an entire night. Rather than all 13 players rotate in and out on a fair basis. If you for one moment go with what I say, do you then think that people will be jumping ship the first chance they get? Cause unless you have no friends in the guild and only care for "progression" in a casual guild, then I kinda think you're over the mark here.
    I don't assume that at all - what i assume is that a player who is benched can go into and out of a flexi raid at will with no repurcussions. "Got benched for a boss? Cool join our flexi meantime mate."

    I don't think you are appreciating how awesome flexi is. People can join and leave a flexi run at will, with no getting saved or anything.
    Again, if we go by your assumption that most Normal mode guilds will always just have standby players sit out an entire night, then yes you are probably right. But if we go by my assumption and believe that guild leaders have just a bit brain, then they will rotate everyone on a fair basis and nobody should feel left out.
    When you are being rotated you can go flexi with no barriers.
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  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I don't think you are appreciating how awesome flexi is. People can join and leave a flexi run at will, with no getting saved or anything.
    Indeed, the no lockout part is awesome and will be perfect for pugging. Won't have to pick and choose what group you join, nor will raid leaders have to be as picky, not to mention it's split into bite-sized wings that even people with just 2 hours to allot can do. (I've noticed random pugs start leaving after that amount of time in ToT)

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I think the problem this expansion with the casual engagement is that they overwhelmed the casuals.
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
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  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The increased options are largely a myth after a certain ilvl. Basically it's lfr and raiding and that's it.
    Not true. It became insanely easy to get rep. So much so that by the time you hit 90, as long as you just started a cpl of questlines you were honored or near to it. Run a cpl of heroic dungeons and bam!! Exhalted. I have a toon sitting at 491 IL and I haven't even tried to gear him up. Did a cpl of LFR's but most of his gear came from VP gear, and the Barrens drops, as well as the world bosses. I'm reasonably certain that if I had put in some effort, his IL would be closer to 500+ which is past ready for raiding relevant content.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Yeah okay, I get that. I mean, my guild does that as well. If someone, for whatever the reason, is playing like shit and preventing us from getting a kill, we'll swap that person out for someone else. And I do get, that there's a big difference between casual guilds and heroic guilds. But to me it sounds a bit like your leadership (leadership in general) needs to make some things clear to their guildies. I mean, we have it written down in our guild "rules"/guidelines/info how we do things. That way people know this, when they apply and therefore won't complain when we rotate them out - regardless of the reason.

    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.
    Allow me to jump in for a sec... what I think you're missing is that more casual guilds attract different people than heroic guilds. Heroic guilds have a rep on their servers and by and large the people who seriously apply to them know what they're getting into with things like standby, DKP, etc. They will put up with that because the reward is being part of a server first guild or at least a high end, heroic guild. That might mean prestige to a player or just that they're part of a team playing at a high level.

    In contrast, a more laid back guild attracts people who aren't as into that stuff and so might not take to being rotated in and out in the same manner. They just want to show up a couple of nights a week and raid with decent players, not worry about standby, DKP, who need what loot from which boss, etc. Also, trying to rotate adds complexity, overhead and potential drama which the RL and officers need to deal with.

    Now, imagine you're a casual 10 man raid. You want to progress some, but you'll be satisfied if you clear normals in the current tier. You can define a rotation scheme, publicize the rules, get people to buy in, deal with some people who don't like it and leave by recruiting, etc.... OR you can decide you're not all that invested in whatever prestige comes with clearing normals, say "fuck it" and raid flex. If 13 people want to raid, great, you raid with 13. If the next night only 11 show, no problem. Same if 15 show. Awesome, let's all raid. None of the overhead, none of the drama. Hell, since loot is personal like LFR there's not even a need for DKP schemes.

    Flex will kill normal mode guilds. Some normal mode guilds will step it up and become the entry tier of heroic raids... but the guilds who pretty much only raid normals? In 6.x those will be a tiny minority and most organized non-heroic raids will be flex.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-04 at 11:39 PM.

  10. #570
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manataurus View Post
    Not true. It became insanely easy to get rep. So much so that by the time you hit 90, as long as you just started a cpl of questlines you were honored or near to it. Run a cpl of heroic dungeons and bam!! Exhalted. I have a toon sitting at 491 IL and I haven't even tried to gear him up. Did a cpl of LFR's but most of his gear came from VP gear, and the Barrens drops, as well as the world bosses. I'm reasonably certain that if I had put in some effort, his IL would be closer to 500+ which is past ready for raiding relevant content.
    In 5.2 you got rep from RAIDS so yes your back to raiding. The gear you could acquire from the daily 5.0 BS was A. Underilvl and B. A massive time consuming grind even with the reduction. Also was not very casual friendly if you didn't log on for a day or two. It was tonnes of hours spent and invested for little to no gain. It was not a serious alternative to raiding. It was far more time consuming then the rate you could get gear at in cataclysm. What I said was true, after a certain ilvl basically all that's left is raiding. In cataclysm this was basically only at the heroic raid lvl because well I could buy normal raid lvl gear relatively easily (re:casual friendly) which provided an alternative to raiding for many. Actually through a good portion of cataclysm (and wrath) I could even buy TIER sets. The game SORELY needs an alternative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The issue was never one of "things to do" it was "meaningful things that advance your character" because let's not beat around the bush, that's the main goal of any RPG game, MMO or tabletop or otherwise: To increase your power. How many of those things increase one's power? Arena is out of most casual players. Rep grinds reward some gear, usually subpar. BGs can reward gear and many find them fun. None of the others really reward any meaningful advancement.
    This is basically the larger point. An alternative is needed to raiding that rewards as well as raiding or almost as well. The game sorely lacking in this department. It did have alternatives that were very casual friendly in the past. Those all went out the window in mists to force casual players into a very uncasual activity. Raiding at any level.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-04 at 11:41 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
    Heroic Scenarios are faster Valor gain than Hour of Twilight dungeons were.

  12. #572
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Heroic Scenarios are faster Valor gain than Hour of Twilight dungeons were.
    They also generally do not award better gear at the same time while your doing them. Also the currency itself is worth far less in terms of player power. Acquiring a near useless currency MARGINALLY faster is still not casual friendly.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They also generally do not award better gear at the same time while your doing them. Also the currency itself is worth far less in terms of player power. Acquiring a near useless currency MARGINALLY faster is still not casual friendly.
    Previous tier normal gear was 496, so they actually award better things if you win. They do give it far less frequently, but it's actually better than it has been in the previous expansions, where catchup dungeons gave 10man normal last tier equivalent gear.
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  14. #574
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Previous tier normal gear was 496, so they actually award better things if you win. They do give it far less frequently, but it's actually better than it has been in the previous expansions.
    No it's not. Not in terms of catch up and not in terms of overall player progression. Far less frequently is a clever euphemism for they never pay out and it's all subject to rng. Look it just cant' be. If it was as good as before PEOPLE WOULD STOP DOING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT. That's what happened in cataclysm. It's not happening in mists because the alternatives (including the near god damn worhtless heroic scenarios) DON'T PAY OUT AS GOOD. It's designed NOT TO be as good as it was in cataclysm. According to the developers people would just do the content that was effecient but not fun i.e NOT RAID. Well if it was as good or better than the previous expansions that same behavior would occur and people would skip raids. People are not skipping raids.

    Hell even in wrath I had toons that I just never raided on and STILL had raid equivalent actually raid equal gear. I had tier pieces. We don't even have the VENDOR selling the damn gear next patch. How anyone in their right fuckimg mind can say it's better or even equal when they've clearly said it's not designed to be as good as before is insane.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 12:18 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it's not. Not in terms of catch up and not in terms of overall player progression. Far less frequently is a clever euphemism for they never pay out and it's all subject to rng. Look it just cant' be. If it was as good as before PEOPLE WOULD STOP DOING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT. That's what happened in cataclysm. It's not happening in mists because the alternatives DONT PAY OUT AS GOOD. It's designed NOT TO be as good as it was in cataclysm. According to the developers people would just do the content that was effecient but not fun i.e NOT RAID. Well if it was as good or better than the previous expansions that same behaviour would occur and people would skip raids. People are not skipping raids.
    Remember that raids have been made far more accessible in this expansion with a tool such as LFR. Dragon Soul actually saw a massive partecipation increase as well and HoT dungeons were infact seen as a stepping stone to gear for Dragon Soul LFR. Would you mind providing proof that people didn't do the current raids because they had dungeons? Right, you don't have any. Don't get me wrong, catching up was more convenient with dungeons and that's something I can't disagree on, but when catching up takes a couple weeks from the moment you ding 90 to get to about 500 itemlevel it's hardly excessive.

    Reproposing the question because it has never been answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The game has been raid-centric since it was born. Why did you start playing, again?
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  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
    Casuals don't need SoO gear if they aren't raiding. In full ToT gear dungeons are a joke. Shit in full blues dungeons are a joke... heroics are probably the easiest they've ever been, that is very casual friendly.

    And yeah it takes longer to max out your VP now, boo fucking hoo. You could max it in a day in Cata. But you can also get VP from far more sources than just dungeons and raids now, that's more accessible to casuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In 5.2 you got rep from RAIDS so yes your back to raiding.
    Yes raiding, including LFR.

    The real question is, if you want gear why wouldn't you do LFR?

    That rep leveled itself.
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  17. #577
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Remember that raids have been made far more accessible in this expansion with a tool such as LFR. Dragon Soul actually saw a massive partecipation increase as well and HoT dungeons were infact seen as a stepping stone to gear for Dragon Soul LFR. Would you mind providing proof that people didn't do the current raids because they had dungeons? Right, you don't have any. Don't get me wrong, catching up was more convenient with dungeons and that's something I can't disagree on, but when catching up takes a couple weeks from the moment you ding 90 to get to about 500 itemlevel it's hardly excessive.

    Reproposing the question because it has never been answered.
    Because in reality for most of the people playing it was actually never really raid centric. They did other things and other things kept them occupied. They never aspired to or never bothered to raid, hell most of them didn't even hit max level apparently. The developers may have been raid focused but that doesn't mean the game or the people playing it were.

    As for proof I can give you the developer quotes on this.

    I prefer the cata way. I really wonder if you just listened to an echo chamber those days.
    The problem we had then was players would give up quickly on a tough boss because they knew a new patch would bring tons of gear. (Source)
    It was if they were just gearing from patches and not from killing bosses. That's an effective but not very fun way to play.
    In other words players were skipping bosses (mostly because they were to hard but also because it was far to time consuming and not very casual friendly) to gear up in the alternative methods the developers had inadvertently provided. It's excessive and not very casual friendly and more importantly their is simple no alternative to raiding anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Casuals don't need SoO gear if they aren't raiding. In full ToT gear dungeons are a joke. Shit in full blues dungeons are a joke... heroics are probably the easiest they've ever been, that is very casual friendly.

    And yeah it takes longer to max out your VP now, boo fucking hoo. You could max it in a day in Cata. But you can also get VP from far more sources than just dungeons and raids now, that's more accessible to casuals.



    Yes raiding, including LFR.

    The real question is, if you want gear why wouldn't you do LFR?

    That rep leveled itself.
    For lots of reasons but the best and primary one is FUCK RAIDING. It's old tired and stale and is only really exhausting with it's unnecessary complexity. Christ and then people wonder and say well wow is old well yea it's old but the hyper focus on the most old and stale aspects of the game sure helps out.

    Getting it from more sources is also not defacto casual friendly. Ummm It could be every action in the game awarding it to you but if it only awarded it to you at 2 valor an hour let's say then it still wouldn't be very casual friendly. Getting it from one source at an extremely good rate could potentially be very casual friendly, it's just a matter of specifics and details. As for the need it's never been about need, hardcores don't need the actual gear either, the real hardcores proved this. They raid HM without it by and large. If heroics were easy and still awarded insane amounts of character progression then yes thta would be casual friendly. Also if we got more of them this expansion instead of rehashes then yea that would be casual friendly as well. Nope not getting that.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 12:41 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because in reality for most of the people playing it was actually never really raid centric. They did other things and other things kept them occupied. They never aspired to or never bothered to raid, hell most of them didn't even hit max level apparently. The developers may have been raid focused but that doesn't mean the game or the people playing it were.

    As for proof I can give you the developer quotes on this.

    In other words players were skipping bosses (mostly because they were to hard but also because it was far to time consuming and not very casual friendly) to gear up in the alternative methods the developers had inadvertently provided. It's excessive and not very casual friendly and more importantly their is simple no alternative to raiding anymore.
    What the quote is saying is that alternatives were used because people got stuck on raids. People don't get stuck on LFR anymore, it's actually pretty much a joke, which means that's basically the alternative to normal/hc raiding. Notice how he says nothing about needing to have an alternative to raids, but just needing an alternative for when you get stuck on something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    For lots of reasons but the best and primary one is FUCK RAIDING. It's old tired and stale and is only really exhausting with it's unnecessary complexity. Christ and then people wonder and say well wow is old well yea it's old but the hyper focus on the most old and stale aspects of the game sure helps out.
    And what would the primary content be? Dungeons? I already explained a few pages back why I think it won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The problem in small 5man dungeons content is that it either revolves around grinding or it basically becomes lots of small raids in which you need to progress. (Just quoted this post because cba going to the last page, forgive me. ) Having something new to do (as in to progress through and get down) is far more appealing to the majority than just farming the same content over and over again (5man dungeons). Look at the game where you supposedly got the idea from (GW2). 5man dungeons can prove to be a challenge the first time you do it, maybe the second and the third. After that it all becomes a grindfest and people started asking what the point was and quitting. Of 4.6million people that purchased the game, I doubt more than 1 is still playing. Heck, they showed statistics for current onlines and it was 460k. Now, assuming they don't shaft their PR on purpose, that's probably their peak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Getting it from more sources is also not defacto casual friendly. Ummm It could be every action in the game awarding it to you but if it only awarded it to you at 2 valor an hour let's say then it still wouldn't be very casual friendly. As for the need it's never been about need, hardcores don't need the actual gear either, the real hardcores proved this. They raid HM without it by and large. If heroics were easy and still awarded insane amounts of character progression then yes thta would be casual friendly. Also if we got more of them this expansion instead of rehashes then yea that would be casual friendly as well. Nope not getting that.
    No, you don't need them if you're not a world class player. Just like professional snookers players don't need to think nearly as much as amateur ones to get a great play done. It's true that you can get (almost) anywhere with a lot of effort. Effort however, just like most things, suffers from diminishing returns in the sense that putting a certain amount of effort will reward less and less increase the higher you are. Asking for someone to do a hour and a half raid wing is something, asking for someone to level and gear up at least 2 alts (that's how much Method requires) in order to do three raids the first week is a completely different thing.

    Also, the last commend about heroic raids needing to be easy to be doable by casuals just makes me think that you're confusing bad players and casual ones.
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  19. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    What the quote is saying is that alternatives were used because people got stuck on raids. People don't get stuck on LFR anymore, it's actually pretty much a joke, which means that's basically the alternative to normal/hc raiding. Notice how he says nothing about needing to have an alternative to raids, but just needing an alternative for when you get stuck on something.
    He doesn't say anything about it because the developers are convinced that everyone should aspire to raiding. What he's actually saying is that people were choosing other content that wasn't raiding when that other content was awarding as well or better than raiding. LFR cannot server as other content that isn't raiding BECAUSE IT"S STILL RAIDING. He can't say anything about having an alternative because he knows that if people were given that alternative they would not do raids. They weren't doing raids in the past what would all of a sudden change to make them do raids. Well they'd have to make raiding this insane catch all. Even more of a hyper focus on raiding then in the past and guess what it hasn't worked to keep anybody. They've still lost players by the boatloads and while we can't say the reasons for those millions of individuals we can say that LFR and raiding in general has not worked to retain them. If they chose not to do raids then raiding would cease to be economical in terms of time to the amount of people it entertained and they'd have to go back to making other contnet like dungeons that had wider appeal.

    The last comment wasn't on heroic raids, if it's about heroic raids ill say HM but I was talking about Heroic dungeons. Sorry playing dota atm all over the place kinda.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 01:02 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    He doesn't say anything about it because the developers are convinced that everyone should aspire to raiding. What he's actually saying is that people were choosing other content that wasn't raiding when that other content was awarding as well or better than raiding. LFR cannot server as other content that isn't raiding BECAUSE IT"S STILL RAIDING. He can't say anything about having an alternative because he knows that if people were given that alternative they would not do raids. They weren't doing raids in the past what would all of a sudden change to make them do raids. Well they'd have to make raiding this insane catch all. Even more of a hyper focus on raiding then in the past and guess what it hasn't worked to keep anybody. They've still lost players by the boatloads and while we can't say the reasons for those millions of individuals we can say that LFR and raiding in general has not worked to retain them. If they chose not to do raids then raiding would cease to be economical in terms of time to the amount of people it entertained and they'd have to go back to making other contnet like dungeons that had wider appeal.

    The last comment wasn't on heroic raids, if it's about heroic raids ill say HM but I was talking about Heroic dungeons. Sorry playing dota atm all over the place kinda.
    The point is that the game is an MMORPG, which stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. If you're taking large group content away, you might as well not play an MMO and instead play single player games about progressing your character. You want to play with friends? Most of those console games have multiplayer via LAN/screen sharing. Raiding is the core of MMORPGs because otherwise that wouldn't be their name. If you can't afford to play a game like this, you probably have chosen the wrong game, because that's not what an MMORPG is about. It sounds harsh, but I'll actually repost here what I said previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Because that's what an RPGMMO is about. Killing big bad guys with others. If you don't do so, you may as well play single player games. If you really can't play for one hour to one and a half (because that's how long it actually takes to do an LFR wing nowadays) then you should consider that online play in complex games isn't for you, and that you should either switch to simple online games or complex single player games. Multiplayer requires by default the partecipation of other players. If you can't wait for other players, as harsh as it may sound, that's how things stand. And that's about right for every game out there. If you want solo content, you may as well play a single player game, because you're not interacting with players anyways.
    If you don't like raids, can you provide your example of large-scale content which would appeal you?
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

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