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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Etna View Post
    You forget to mention raid spot. If you dont gear up every possible upgrade why should you have a raid spot? even in normal 10man your roster should be around 13-15 players if you want your grantee raid spot you must get every possible upgrade your raid leader is going to pick the best geared people for progression even if it is normal progression.
    You have no idea of what you're talking about. No actual 10N raid runs like that. 10H raids *might*, but normal mode raids simply do not unless the RL has issues.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You have no idea of what you're talking about. No actual 10N raid runs like that. 10H raids *might*, but normal mode raids simply do not unless the RL has issues.
    I think the underlying point is that 10N guilds that don't run like that should be Flex Guilds instead.
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  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You have no idea of what you're talking about. No actual 10N raid runs like that. 10H raids *might*, but normal mode raids simply do not unless the RL has issues.
    I was never on a 10man normal mode guild that is for sure, i was always on guilds that run HC mode, we did had some problems with some end bosses on normal like the Lich King, Nefarian and Ragnarus.

    We spend almost 1 month to down this guys that when we did we were almost BIS in normal mode gear that the next week we almost clear all bosses in HC hehe.

    You are right maybe i don't know what it is like to be on a normal mode guild, but keep in mind i started playing in TBC and normal mode was the only mode.

    I am an HC raider and i run LFR, and will run flex for every possible upgrade.

    First week i bet i will do a PUG flex during the afternoon before the evening normal raid.
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
    Casual - This is a player that will let everything else take priority over wow.
    Hardcore - This is a player that is fine with putting things on hold while he's on wow.
    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
    Casual/Hardcore - Measure of Time

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I think the underlying point is that 10N guilds that don't run like that should be Flex Guilds instead.
    No, they shouldn't. By his open admission Etna runs hardcore, heroic raids. That attitude is entirely appropriate for that audience. The problem is that normals used to be somewhat casual raids that served as group endgame entertainment for raiders who didn't want to raid that way. Blizzard, by moving the difficulty of them up, left a gap that wasn't being served. You could raid LFR but that was not the same experience as an organized group. Meanwhile normals, especially 10 man normals, had become hard enough that everyone really needed to be on their game in contrast to previous expansions where some slop was tolerable. Hence we have flex. Flex solves that issue AND it solves the issue we've talked about earlier in the thread, what to do it you have 11+ people. Sure, you can rotate and more serious guilds will do that. But less serious guilds will simple raid flex vs 10N.

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Etna View Post
    Y even in normal 10man your roster should be around 13-15 players if you want your grantee raid spot you must get every possible upgrade your raid leader is going to pick the best geared people for progression even if it is normal progression.
    you are daydreaming if u think any normal mode raiding guild can afford itself to have 15 people rooster -_- keeping 12 people rooster is pain in the ass cause if a single person isnt take in for aa week he start drama and usually jumps guilds -_-

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you are daydreaming if u think any normal mode raiding guild can afford itself to have 15 people rooster -_- keeping 12 people rooster is pain in the ass cause if a single person isnt take in for aa week he start drama and usually jumps guilds -_-
    Than recruit another.

    If you ever think about it why should people stay in RaidGuild, to Raid... and than they cant for whatever reason, so if 1 person cant go you must suply the spot or call the raid => very bad situation because other 9 might start drama about "not raiding". Every guild that mind some regular raiding must have +30% over budget of people, idealy in different roles. Once you call raid you are on the road to hell. Basic math says 1 person missing ruin evening for 9 others, 1 or 2 above limit may result in 1 or max 2 ruined evenings, the first variant is clearly worse.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Wrong. Content isn't overtuned, they aren't trying. Those are two completely different things and I'm sure you actually understand that despite trying to defend your point.
    Then ultimately content is over tuned. While it's all well and good for you and firefly to sit here saying THEY AREN'T TRYING the developers can't turn and tell everyone who quit hey wtf is wrong with you guys you just didn't try and then go fist bump you and firefly. Actually they tried doing exactly that in cataclysm and the backlash was enormous. If the content is beating them so badly that they don't even have the lure or taste of success enough to keep them going then it's over tuned. Sorry man. It might not be over tuned for you and your standards but clearly for everyone else or for lots of people at any rate it is.

    I mean the argument your making is so fucking retarded. It's basically saying content isn't hard or overtuned once you discount the people it's hard or over tuned for. DUH really. I could say content is ridiculously easy all the way across the board if I discount everyone but paragon and method. Just from that sample alone the rest of you scrubs should uninstall immediately.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Well, raids have been the endgame thing since mid-Vanilla or so, so I doubt that would happen. LFR has made it kind of a moot point for most people.

    There's lots of things to do outside raiding, lots more than ever before, but if you want raid gear out of it then no, the game doesn't cater to that. It can't really since that would undermine raiding.
    I mean I could also argue that dungeons have been around since vanilla to and look at what happened to them this expansion. The developers have shown that they are more than willing to abandon the tropes and conventions of mmos but for some reason they seem clueless when it comes to raiding.

    Theirs lots to do outside of raiding but none of it actually rewards as well as raiding because as you correctly point out it would undermine raiding. Which it did in cataclysm. I don't see that as a problem but the developers so instead what we get is a million and one difficulties repeating the same bullshit raiding content over and over again and people more desperate than ever for new content to come out at a faster pace. In reality we end up having less. At least when dungeons had decent rewards behind them I broke up raiding by doing that stuff and still getting rewarded for it. Now it's basically just raid raid raid raid raid.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #668
    I think the biggest issue with raiding is simply that the tools necessary to do it are not actually part of the game. The dungeon guide went a small way towards helping that, but typically it's hard to tell what effects are doing during a fight, it's hard to tell where the fire is or what it does when you stand in it, it's hard to tell whether your DPS are actually any good and it's hard to find people to raid with. The overall reduction in difficulty of dungeons means that it's hard to tell if anyone is good at their class, or whether they have the will to wipe a few times learning a boss.

    Some of these things are gradually improving (flex raiding helps with head count, boss mechanics are getting better at telling you what's up), but some have been steadily getting worse (remember when heroics required a plan and you could wipe without being massively undergeared or suffering from gross incompetence?).

  9. #669
    Personally I feel LFR -> Flex -> Heroic is a much better idea, but really, if they want to cover "all skill levels" then they should just create a "Monster Power" system and be done with it.

    i.e. You get one Lockout per week, and you can adjust been LFR/Normal/Heroic on a per boss basis. Solves the problem really, and make them all "flex" starting at 8 players (not 10) for small guilds. Problem solved.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Then ultimately content is over tuned. While it's all well and good for you and firefly to sit here saying THEY AREN'T TRYING the developers can't turn and tell everyone who quit hey wtf is wrong with you guys you just didn't try and then go fist bump you and firefly. Actually they tried doing exactly that in cataclysm and the backlash was enormous. If the content is beating them so badly that they don't even have the lure or taste of success enough to keep them going then it's over tuned. Sorry man. It might not be over tuned for you and your standards but clearly for everyone else or for lots of people at any rate it is.
    If you don't want to try, go run LFR. I mean, trying isn't spending days and days and days researching, getting a priority sorted on icy veins takes one hour and getting to ~500 itemlevel takes two weeks. That's all you need to raid normals. If people can't do that over the span of an entire patch they aren't trying enough. The treshold is pretty low (2 weeks gearing, one hour reading your class, use your gearing time to get used to playing in a raid even though LFR is pretty much a joke).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean the argument your making is so fucking retarded. It's basically saying content isn't hard or overtuned once you discount the people it's hard or over tuned for. DUH really. I could say content is ridiculously easy all the way across the board if I discount everyone but paragon and method. Just from that sample alone the rest of you scrubs should uninstall immediately.
    If those people tried to actually do it I'm sure they would be perfectly capable of. You're confusing trying and being able to. You know all the teachers saying "that child is smart but isn't applying itself to school"? That's the exact same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean I could also argue that dungeons have been around since vanilla to and look at what happened to them this expansion. The developers have shown that they are more than willing to abandon the tropes and conventions of mmos but for some reason they seem clueless when it comes to raiding.

    Theirs lots to do outside of raiding but none of it actually rewards as well as raiding because as you correctly point out it would undermine raiding. Which it did in cataclysm. I don't see that as a problem but the developers so instead what we get is a million and one difficulties repeating the same bullshit raiding content over and over again and people more desperate than ever for new content to come out at a faster pace. In reality we end up having less. At least when dungeons had decent rewards behind them I broke up raiding by doing that stuff and still getting rewarded for it. Now it's basically just raid raid raid raid raid.
    Farm Timeless Isle 535 gear and you're set, everyone's happy.
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  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    defining good and bad in WoW is often quite easy.
    Firefly, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your post. What it does particularly well is to show how much performance varies with skill, and how, at the very top of the game a small difference in ability actually translates into a massive performance boost. This really shouldn't be surprising if you stop to think about how WoW performance is achieved. Small differences amplify themselves into a huge effect.

    For example, take two raiding groups both with equal gear, facing off against a very challenging boss. One group has 2% better dps output than the other. The first group manages after 50 attempts to defeat the boss with 3 seconds left on the enrage timer. The other group keeps wiping on 1%. The first group gets gear upgrades, which boost its dps output by another 2%.

    Now let's assume that by the end of the week, group 1 has defeated the first boss, and made progress on the second. The second group have made progress, but didn't beat the first boss. Now in the second week, group 1 will defeat the boss in 1 or 2 attempts, get more gear, and likely defeat boss 2, while group 2 manages to finally defeat boss 1 by the end of the week.

    Can you see how, after 2 weeks, group 1, who really were only marginally better than group 2 have managed to obtain 3 times as many gear upgrades in the same space of time? Now do you begin to understand how it is that after a few months the top player will be performing significantly better than the second best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Doing 50-66% of what you could be doing is bad, and anything below that is quite honestly, awful.
    This is where I disagree. The required ratio of top performance "score" vs the sample "score" to qualify as "good" or "bad" depends on the nature of the activity.

    To illustrate my point:

    In WoW

    Your performance (as shown on your graphs) is producing roughly 4 times the output of the median. The 95th percentile is roughly twice the median. And because this data is taken from WoL, it is a good assumption that this is data for people who classify in the 90th percentile of the game at large. Therefore I predict that the 50th percentile of WoL is probably 4 times better than the 50th percentile among non raiders making your performance 16 times greater than the median level 90 player out there.

    These stats show how in a game like WoW performance increases exponentially with skill. In other words, being 2% better at the game could translate to a 50% increase in performance. Conversely, a person producing 33% less dps than you might only be 2% less skilled.

    The 100m sprint

    Usain Bolt does it in approximately 10 seconds. The average person does it in about 14 seconds. So the average person, even with little or no training can still perform at 70% of Usain Bolt's level. At the top level, this is completely the opposite to what happens in WoW, with massively diminishing returns from improving performance.


    The bottom line: looking at output as a raw percentage of a theoretical maximum is a very poor indicator of relative ability. It is useful only if you understand what that percentage means in the context of the activity. What is a good indicator of relative ability is seeing where someone sits on the statistical distibution.

    Someone performing at 60% of Usain Bolt is bad at running. Someone performing at 80% of Usain Bolt is a very good runner.
    Someone performing at 5% (30th percentile maybe) of your dps is bad at dps. Someone performing at even 30% (95th percentile) though is actually a good player.


    I can understand why from your perspective, 99% (everything below the 90th percentile of WoL) of the WoW population appear to be bad. In the context of heroic raiding they are bad. In the context of WoW in general, however, they are not.

    What I am saying is that you need to find a new adjective because the term "bad" already has a meaning. Or if you want to use the term bad, at least qualify that it is strictly relative to the best players in the world.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    If you don't want to try, go run LFR. I mean, trying isn't spending days and days and days researching, getting a priority sorted on icy veins takes one hour and getting to ~500 itemlevel takes two weeks. That's all you need to raid normals. If people can't do that over the span of an entire patch they aren't trying enough. The treshold is pretty low (2 weeks gearing, one hour reading your class, use your gearing time to get used to playing in a raid even though LFR is pretty much a joke).



    If those people tried to actually do it I'm sure they would be perfectly capable of. You're confusing trying and being able to. You know all the teachers saying "that child is smart but isn't applying itself to school"? That's the exact same situation.



    Farm Timeless Isle 535 gear and you're set, everyone's happy.
    A low threshold for you is obviously not universal. The patronizing bullshit that calls an apparently large portion of the player base insipid and lackadaisical children is pretty funny. Unfortunately for the developers they can't turn around to the parents of those players who gave up raiding and say "sir your child didn't aply himself at our normal raid on such and such a date MAYBE you should go home and discipline him". The amount of arrogance and just general patronizing attitude behind your statement is so fucking hilarious. Now if that teacher had an entire class do exactly the same as that child (save for a few outliers) then the school board would likely look at the teacher and look at replacing him or her. The situation here is that the developers have failed to tune and make content appropriate for the difficulty level of their "children" and the "children" (i.e paying customers) refused to participate and left instead. I mean they're not fucking kids in the first place. They are grown men and woman (more or less) making a choice to NOT do something because they don't feel it's suited for them. Your suggestion is so insulting. You being a prick about it and calling them kids isn't gonna make them want to do it more. Nor will the developers who TRIED EXACTLY THE SAME THING (with their wow dungeons are hard blog) make them want to do it either by being patronizing assholes.

    Is 535 the ilvl for normal SoO? honestly curious here.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-06 at 08:22 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #673
    Normal SoO items are ilvl 553, Warforged 559.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Is 535 the ilvl for normal SoO? honestly curious here.
    535 is between LFR and Flex (540 and 528 i think)
    Last edited by Dukenukem; 2013-09-06 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #675
    about this good and bad thing ... its quite easy to tell difference between good and bad dps - if one is able to time his dps boost abilities with the trinket procs hell get significantly better resoults then the other in same gear - now if u have in group 5 dps who re able to do it vs 5 who cant - the differnece in team performans is enourmous - and some people just reached lv where they no longer remember how aweful was their performance few years ago and expect that since they play on this lv everyone should be able too -_-

  16. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Than recruit another.

    If you ever think about it why should people stay in RaidGuild, to Raid... and than they cant for whatever reason, so if 1 person cant go you must suply the spot or call the raid => very bad situation because other 9 might start drama about "not raiding". Every guild that mind some regular raiding must have +30% over budget of people, idealy in different roles. Once you call raid you are on the road to hell. Basic math says 1 person missing ruin evening for 9 others, 1 or 2 above limit may result in 1 or max 2 ruined evenings, the first variant is clearly worse.
    That is pretty hilarious, that you think people in a normal progression raiding guild would put up with being benched 1/3 of the time.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    That is pretty hilarious, that you think people in a normal progression raiding guild would put up with being benched 1/3 of the time.
    What about being rotated? As the previous conversation went, there's a difference with being benched and being rotated out of certain fights and brought into other fights, typically being rotated out of fights you don't need any loot from. Benched I agree with, outside of a top guild nobody is going to accept being benched, since being benched usually means "You aren't good enough". But serious guilds (not even high-end heroic guilds) need to have a roster large enough to account for people missing, or needing time off, or whatever unless they're content to pug whatever scrub they can scrounge up from Trade at the last minute, so I would imagine that any serious raider understands that hey sometimes it's okay to sit out Boss #3 and come back in on Boss #4.
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  18. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Firefly, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your post. What it does particularly well is to show how much performance varies with skill, and how, at the very top of the game a small difference in ability actually translates into a massive performance boost. This really shouldn't be surprising if you stop to think about how WoW performance is achieved. Small differences amplify themselves into a huge effect.

    [...]

    Can you see how, after 2 weeks, group 1, who really were only marginally better than group 2 have managed to obtain 3 times as many gear upgrades in the same space of time? Now do you begin to understand how it is that after a few months the top player will be performing significantly better than the second best?
    We are looking at plots where gear and luck are the major factors influencing the higher values. If WoW had plots for different players with the exact same gear, that would be more significant.

    But plotting percentiles when the players involved have vastly different gear, and when some specs are quite sensitive (even on 10 minute fights) to random effects, is really a pointless exercise when the topic at hand is "skill."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What about being rotated? As the previous conversation went, there's a difference with being benched and being rotated out of certain fights and brought into other fights, typically being rotated out of fights you don't need any loot from. Benched I agree with, outside of a top guild nobody is going to accept being benched, since being benched usually means "You aren't good enough". But serious guilds (not even high-end heroic guilds) need to have a roster large enough to account for people missing, or needing time off, or whatever unless they're content to pug whatever scrub they can scrounge up from Trade at the last minute, so I would imagine that any serious raider understands that hey sometimes it's okay to sit out Boss #3 and come back in on Boss #4.
    It's hard enough to schedule raiding. I can't imagine someone wanting to sit around at that specially-reserved time while other players kill bosses until "fight that needs another healer" comes along. People might put up with that bullshit for a while but no one is going to do it for long.

    Flex and Normal should both be flex, problem solved.

  19. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    It's hard enough to schedule raiding. I can't imagine someone wanting to sit around at that specially-reserved time while other players kill bosses until "fight that needs another healer" comes along. People might put up with that bullshit for a while but no one is going to do it for long.

    Flex and Normal should both be flex, problem solved.
    That's not what rotating people out is. Rotating people out is knowing in advance what bosses drop what loot, and saying "Hey Bob we're going to bring Steve in on this boss because it can drop his BiS trinket, we're bringing you back in on the next boss for a shot at the tier gloves".
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  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    That's not what rotating people out is. Rotating people out is knowing in advance what bosses drop what loot, and saying "Hey Bob we're going to bring Steve in on this boss because it can drop his BiS trinket, we're bringing you back in on the next boss for a shot at the tier gloves".
    You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

    And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.

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