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  1. #661
    Personally I feel LFR -> Flex -> Heroic is a much better idea, but really, if they want to cover "all skill levels" then they should just create a "Monster Power" system and be done with it.

    i.e. You get one Lockout per week, and you can adjust been LFR/Normal/Heroic on a per boss basis. Solves the problem really, and make them all "flex" starting at 8 players (not 10) for small guilds. Problem solved.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Then ultimately content is over tuned. While it's all well and good for you and firefly to sit here saying THEY AREN'T TRYING the developers can't turn and tell everyone who quit hey wtf is wrong with you guys you just didn't try and then go fist bump you and firefly. Actually they tried doing exactly that in cataclysm and the backlash was enormous. If the content is beating them so badly that they don't even have the lure or taste of success enough to keep them going then it's over tuned. Sorry man. It might not be over tuned for you and your standards but clearly for everyone else or for lots of people at any rate it is.
    If you don't want to try, go run LFR. I mean, trying isn't spending days and days and days researching, getting a priority sorted on icy veins takes one hour and getting to ~500 itemlevel takes two weeks. That's all you need to raid normals. If people can't do that over the span of an entire patch they aren't trying enough. The treshold is pretty low (2 weeks gearing, one hour reading your class, use your gearing time to get used to playing in a raid even though LFR is pretty much a joke).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean the argument your making is so fucking retarded. It's basically saying content isn't hard or overtuned once you discount the people it's hard or over tuned for. DUH really. I could say content is ridiculously easy all the way across the board if I discount everyone but paragon and method. Just from that sample alone the rest of you scrubs should uninstall immediately.
    If those people tried to actually do it I'm sure they would be perfectly capable of. You're confusing trying and being able to. You know all the teachers saying "that child is smart but isn't applying itself to school"? That's the exact same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean I could also argue that dungeons have been around since vanilla to and look at what happened to them this expansion. The developers have shown that they are more than willing to abandon the tropes and conventions of mmos but for some reason they seem clueless when it comes to raiding.

    Theirs lots to do outside of raiding but none of it actually rewards as well as raiding because as you correctly point out it would undermine raiding. Which it did in cataclysm. I don't see that as a problem but the developers so instead what we get is a million and one difficulties repeating the same bullshit raiding content over and over again and people more desperate than ever for new content to come out at a faster pace. In reality we end up having less. At least when dungeons had decent rewards behind them I broke up raiding by doing that stuff and still getting rewarded for it. Now it's basically just raid raid raid raid raid.
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  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    defining good and bad in WoW is often quite easy.
    Firefly, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your post. What it does particularly well is to show how much performance varies with skill, and how, at the very top of the game a small difference in ability actually translates into a massive performance boost. This really shouldn't be surprising if you stop to think about how WoW performance is achieved. Small differences amplify themselves into a huge effect.

    For example, take two raiding groups both with equal gear, facing off against a very challenging boss. One group has 2% better dps output than the other. The first group manages after 50 attempts to defeat the boss with 3 seconds left on the enrage timer. The other group keeps wiping on 1%. The first group gets gear upgrades, which boost its dps output by another 2%.

    Now let's assume that by the end of the week, group 1 has defeated the first boss, and made progress on the second. The second group have made progress, but didn't beat the first boss. Now in the second week, group 1 will defeat the boss in 1 or 2 attempts, get more gear, and likely defeat boss 2, while group 2 manages to finally defeat boss 1 by the end of the week.

    Can you see how, after 2 weeks, group 1, who really were only marginally better than group 2 have managed to obtain 3 times as many gear upgrades in the same space of time? Now do you begin to understand how it is that after a few months the top player will be performing significantly better than the second best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Doing 50-66% of what you could be doing is bad, and anything below that is quite honestly, awful.
    This is where I disagree. The required ratio of top performance "score" vs the sample "score" to qualify as "good" or "bad" depends on the nature of the activity.

    To illustrate my point:

    In WoW

    Your performance (as shown on your graphs) is producing roughly 4 times the output of the median. The 95th percentile is roughly twice the median. And because this data is taken from WoL, it is a good assumption that this is data for people who classify in the 90th percentile of the game at large. Therefore I predict that the 50th percentile of WoL is probably 4 times better than the 50th percentile among non raiders making your performance 16 times greater than the median level 90 player out there.

    These stats show how in a game like WoW performance increases exponentially with skill. In other words, being 2% better at the game could translate to a 50% increase in performance. Conversely, a person producing 33% less dps than you might only be 2% less skilled.

    The 100m sprint

    Usain Bolt does it in approximately 10 seconds. The average person does it in about 14 seconds. So the average person, even with little or no training can still perform at 70% of Usain Bolt's level. At the top level, this is completely the opposite to what happens in WoW, with massively diminishing returns from improving performance.


    The bottom line: looking at output as a raw percentage of a theoretical maximum is a very poor indicator of relative ability. It is useful only if you understand what that percentage means in the context of the activity. What is a good indicator of relative ability is seeing where someone sits on the statistical distibution.

    Someone performing at 60% of Usain Bolt is bad at running. Someone performing at 80% of Usain Bolt is a very good runner.
    Someone performing at 5% (30th percentile maybe) of your dps is bad at dps. Someone performing at even 30% (95th percentile) though is actually a good player.


    I can understand why from your perspective, 99% (everything below the 90th percentile of WoL) of the WoW population appear to be bad. In the context of heroic raiding they are bad. In the context of WoW in general, however, they are not.

    What I am saying is that you need to find a new adjective because the term "bad" already has a meaning. Or if you want to use the term bad, at least qualify that it is strictly relative to the best players in the world.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    If you don't want to try, go run LFR. I mean, trying isn't spending days and days and days researching, getting a priority sorted on icy veins takes one hour and getting to ~500 itemlevel takes two weeks. That's all you need to raid normals. If people can't do that over the span of an entire patch they aren't trying enough. The treshold is pretty low (2 weeks gearing, one hour reading your class, use your gearing time to get used to playing in a raid even though LFR is pretty much a joke).



    If those people tried to actually do it I'm sure they would be perfectly capable of. You're confusing trying and being able to. You know all the teachers saying "that child is smart but isn't applying itself to school"? That's the exact same situation.



    Farm Timeless Isle 535 gear and you're set, everyone's happy.
    A low threshold for you is obviously not universal. The patronizing bullshit that calls an apparently large portion of the player base insipid and lackadaisical children is pretty funny. Unfortunately for the developers they can't turn around to the parents of those players who gave up raiding and say "sir your child didn't aply himself at our normal raid on such and such a date MAYBE you should go home and discipline him". The amount of arrogance and just general patronizing attitude behind your statement is so fucking hilarious. Now if that teacher had an entire class do exactly the same as that child (save for a few outliers) then the school board would likely look at the teacher and look at replacing him or her. The situation here is that the developers have failed to tune and make content appropriate for the difficulty level of their "children" and the "children" (i.e paying customers) refused to participate and left instead. I mean they're not fucking kids in the first place. They are grown men and woman (more or less) making a choice to NOT do something because they don't feel it's suited for them. Your suggestion is so insulting. You being a prick about it and calling them kids isn't gonna make them want to do it more. Nor will the developers who TRIED EXACTLY THE SAME THING (with their wow dungeons are hard blog) make them want to do it either by being patronizing assholes.

    Is 535 the ilvl for normal SoO? honestly curious here.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-06 at 08:22 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #665
    Normal SoO items are ilvl 553, Warforged 559.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Is 535 the ilvl for normal SoO? honestly curious here.
    535 is between LFR and Flex (540 and 528 i think)
    Last edited by Dukenukem; 2013-09-06 at 10:15 AM.

  7. #667
    about this good and bad thing ... its quite easy to tell difference between good and bad dps - if one is able to time his dps boost abilities with the trinket procs hell get significantly better resoults then the other in same gear - now if u have in group 5 dps who re able to do it vs 5 who cant - the differnece in team performans is enourmous - and some people just reached lv where they no longer remember how aweful was their performance few years ago and expect that since they play on this lv everyone should be able too -_-

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Than recruit another.

    If you ever think about it why should people stay in RaidGuild, to Raid... and than they cant for whatever reason, so if 1 person cant go you must suply the spot or call the raid => very bad situation because other 9 might start drama about "not raiding". Every guild that mind some regular raiding must have +30% over budget of people, idealy in different roles. Once you call raid you are on the road to hell. Basic math says 1 person missing ruin evening for 9 others, 1 or 2 above limit may result in 1 or max 2 ruined evenings, the first variant is clearly worse.
    That is pretty hilarious, that you think people in a normal progression raiding guild would put up with being benched 1/3 of the time.

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    That is pretty hilarious, that you think people in a normal progression raiding guild would put up with being benched 1/3 of the time.
    What about being rotated? As the previous conversation went, there's a difference with being benched and being rotated out of certain fights and brought into other fights, typically being rotated out of fights you don't need any loot from. Benched I agree with, outside of a top guild nobody is going to accept being benched, since being benched usually means "You aren't good enough". But serious guilds (not even high-end heroic guilds) need to have a roster large enough to account for people missing, or needing time off, or whatever unless they're content to pug whatever scrub they can scrounge up from Trade at the last minute, so I would imagine that any serious raider understands that hey sometimes it's okay to sit out Boss #3 and come back in on Boss #4.
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  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Firefly, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your post. What it does particularly well is to show how much performance varies with skill, and how, at the very top of the game a small difference in ability actually translates into a massive performance boost. This really shouldn't be surprising if you stop to think about how WoW performance is achieved. Small differences amplify themselves into a huge effect.

    [...]

    Can you see how, after 2 weeks, group 1, who really were only marginally better than group 2 have managed to obtain 3 times as many gear upgrades in the same space of time? Now do you begin to understand how it is that after a few months the top player will be performing significantly better than the second best?
    We are looking at plots where gear and luck are the major factors influencing the higher values. If WoW had plots for different players with the exact same gear, that would be more significant.

    But plotting percentiles when the players involved have vastly different gear, and when some specs are quite sensitive (even on 10 minute fights) to random effects, is really a pointless exercise when the topic at hand is "skill."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What about being rotated? As the previous conversation went, there's a difference with being benched and being rotated out of certain fights and brought into other fights, typically being rotated out of fights you don't need any loot from. Benched I agree with, outside of a top guild nobody is going to accept being benched, since being benched usually means "You aren't good enough". But serious guilds (not even high-end heroic guilds) need to have a roster large enough to account for people missing, or needing time off, or whatever unless they're content to pug whatever scrub they can scrounge up from Trade at the last minute, so I would imagine that any serious raider understands that hey sometimes it's okay to sit out Boss #3 and come back in on Boss #4.
    It's hard enough to schedule raiding. I can't imagine someone wanting to sit around at that specially-reserved time while other players kill bosses until "fight that needs another healer" comes along. People might put up with that bullshit for a while but no one is going to do it for long.

    Flex and Normal should both be flex, problem solved.

  11. #671
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    It's hard enough to schedule raiding. I can't imagine someone wanting to sit around at that specially-reserved time while other players kill bosses until "fight that needs another healer" comes along. People might put up with that bullshit for a while but no one is going to do it for long.

    Flex and Normal should both be flex, problem solved.
    That's not what rotating people out is. Rotating people out is knowing in advance what bosses drop what loot, and saying "Hey Bob we're going to bring Steve in on this boss because it can drop his BiS trinket, we're bringing you back in on the next boss for a shot at the tier gloves".
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  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    That's not what rotating people out is. Rotating people out is knowing in advance what bosses drop what loot, and saying "Hey Bob we're going to bring Steve in on this boss because it can drop his BiS trinket, we're bringing you back in on the next boss for a shot at the tier gloves".
    You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

    And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

    And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.
    I agree with that, but I think what he meant was what I said; you have an extra 30% players who are on and get swapped in/out so you maintain a solid geared core of people.
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  14. #674
    Nobleshield... You keep championing rotating people but most normal mode guilds just aren't going to do this unless they have to. Through 5.3 they did have to do this (or they ran with 10 only and risked the raid being cancelled or having to recruit a pug at the last minute) but in 5.4 they can simply run Flex and fit in all 13... or 11... or 10. If someone will be late, they can start with 10 and add the 11th on the fly.

    I'm sure some normal mode RLs with delusions of grandeur will balk at this, but what will happen is that the people being rotated will simply leave for a flex guild in a lot of cases where they don't have to deal with this. What you keep missing is that since by definition most normal mode guilds aren't hardcore, they attract people who are less into the whole rotation, planning, DKP for sitting out stuff.

  15. #675
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    Oh I get it, I just think that while Flex will appeal to a majority of people, you're going to get folks that want more than Flex, in short because Flex will still carry the stigma of not being real raiding but being "LFR+". If you've seen my previous thoughts on Flex I think that Normal is going to fade out to just be a stepping stone to heroics; there will be no guilds that clear normal and is then pretty much done, with no desire to bother with heroic modes. Either you clear normal and dabble in heroics (and therefore are a more serious guild) or you mostly run flex and dabble in normal. Normal becomes Heroic for the Flex guilds, basically.
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  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Oh I get it, I just think that while Flex will appeal to a majority of people, you're going to get folks that want more than Flex, in short because Flex will still carry the stigma of not being real raiding but being "LFR+". If you've seen my previous thoughts on Flex I think that Normal is going to fade out to just be a stepping stone to heroics; there will be no guilds that clear normal and is then pretty much done, with no desire to bother with heroic modes. Either you clear normal and dabble in heroics (and therefore are a more serious guild) or you mostly run flex and dabble in normal. Normal becomes Heroic for the Flex guilds, basically.
    Normal might be wanted, but it's no use to the guy who doesn't get to go.

    So he will leave.

    And then the guys who are left behind won't be able to do normals either (for very long), because they needed the benched guy.

    The choice is either flexi first to keep everyone happy and then normals afterwards (time permitting) or watch your bench walk out, and then not be able to run because of lack of manpower and then shortly afterwards guild failure.
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  17. #677

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    Most normal guilds are like this to some degree, especially 10 mans. Not crybabies, but it's hard to rotate more than 1-2 people. What usually happens is that it' the DPS who rotate and if you have 5 DPS with 3 extra, you cant avoid having each of them sit a fair amount. 1 Extra? Not an issue. can you rotate on a per boss basis? Sure, but again, most normal mode 10 mans aren't staffed with people who want to sit around while others kill a boss nor are most of the RLs wanting to track who needs what loot.

    Bottom line? Most 10N guilds are pretty casual and it will be FAR easier for them to just avoid any of this crap and run Flex. NOTE NOTE NOTE: I'm talking about 10N raids... not 10H. Those are very different and the people who app to them know what to expect for the most part.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched?
    What guilds have you been a part of where they haven't? (Guessing - Hardcore HC guilds.)

    I've been a GM for years. People ragequitting after not being taken, or just gently floating away after not been taken is the default behaviour I've seen. (I get round it by simply putting more raids on, letting other people RL etc but that's fairly rare I think.)
    This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    He's still going to look for a guild once you boot him. Something that a lot of the very organised and very hardcore people never seem to realise is that a lot of the people they discard for being bad, selfish, not a team player etc etc - still play wow.

    It's also pretty easy to string people along if you can give them HC and normal mode loot in the future. The average guild hasn't got that carrot because they don't do HC's and they don't clear normals until near the end of the patch cycle.

    Or, to put it another way, Would you stick around a guild that didn't take you raiding and that also wasn't going to clear normal mode for the next few months?

    When theres a flexi guild who will take you right now and you can raid this week?

    I'm guessing your answer (and most peoples answer) is going to be "fuck no" and I fail to see anything wrong with that answer.
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  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Normal might be wanted, but it's no use to the guy who doesn't get to go.

    So he will leave.

    And then the guys who are left behind won't be able to do normals either (for very long), because they needed the benched guy.

    The choice is either flexi first to keep everyone happy and then normals afterwards (time permitting) or watch your bench walk out, and then not be able to run because of lack of manpower and then shortly afterwards guild failure.
    Unless Blizzard bow down to the casual crowd again even more and allow 8man Flex the named 10N, who have 10 and sometime 9 people, will again need to pug or recruit more. I highly doubt that any N player will research what damage will be dealt on different number of people (giving it that Flex will raid for 10-15 people) and adapt ever changing strategy depending on setup (healer/dps counts).
    While i doubt that Flex will be "that" hard, making tact for 10 and than next week for 15 will be like reprogressing the boss.

    and for clevin: I might not grasp the mentality of a normal 10 Raider ( Im a GM of 10/13H 25man, different word) I still think that even normal Raiders want some sort of progress, and counting that they are normal raiders that Clearing 14/14N will take them some time, so why is everyone so surprised that they wont raid 100% time? Can they guarantee 100% attendance? from what I read from casual definition tossed here earlyer I highly doubt that so the rotation that Nobleshield keep mentioning is only thing that can save it from disbanding.

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