Nobleshield... You keep championing rotating people but most normal mode guilds just aren't going to do this unless they have to. Through 5.3 they did have to do this (or they ran with 10 only and risked the raid being cancelled or having to recruit a pug at the last minute) but in 5.4 they can simply run Flex and fit in all 13... or 11... or 10. If someone will be late, they can start with 10 and add the 11th on the fly.
I'm sure some normal mode RLs with delusions of grandeur will balk at this, but what will happen is that the people being rotated will simply leave for a flex guild in a lot of cases where they don't have to deal with this. What you keep missing is that since by definition most normal mode guilds aren't hardcore, they attract people who are less into the whole rotation, planning, DKP for sitting out stuff.
Oh I get it, I just think that while Flex will appeal to a majority of people, you're going to get folks that want more than Flex, in short because Flex will still carry the stigma of not being real raiding but being "LFR+". If you've seen my previous thoughts on Flex I think that Normal is going to fade out to just be a stepping stone to heroics; there will be no guilds that clear normal and is then pretty much done, with no desire to bother with heroic modes. Either you clear normal and dabble in heroics (and therefore are a more serious guild) or you mostly run flex and dabble in normal. Normal becomes Heroic for the Flex guilds, basically.
So he will leave.
And then the guys who are left behind won't be able to do normals either (for very long), because they needed the benched guy.
The choice is either flexi first to keep everyone happy and then normals afterwards (time permitting) or watch your bench walk out, and then not be able to run because of lack of manpower and then shortly afterwards guild failure.
What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
Bottom line? Most 10N guilds are pretty casual and it will be FAR easier for them to just avoid any of this crap and run Flex. NOTE NOTE NOTE: I'm talking about 10N raids... not 10H. Those are very different and the people who app to them know what to expect for the most part.
I've been a GM for years. People ragequitting after not being taken, or just gently floating away after not been taken is the default behaviour I've seen. (I get round it by simply putting more raids on, letting other people RL etc but that's fairly rare I think.)
He's still going to look for a guild once you boot him. Something that a lot of the very organised and very hardcore people never seem to realise is that a lot of the people they discard for being bad, selfish, not a team player etc etc - still play wow.This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
It's also pretty easy to string people along if you can give them HC and normal mode loot in the future. The average guild hasn't got that carrot because they don't do HC's and they don't clear normals until near the end of the patch cycle.
Or, to put it another way, Would you stick around a guild that didn't take you raiding and that also wasn't going to clear normal mode for the next few months?
When theres a flexi guild who will take you right now and you can raid this week?
I'm guessing your answer (and most peoples answer) is going to be "fuck no" and I fail to see anything wrong with that answer.
While i doubt that Flex will be "that" hard, making tact for 10 and than next week for 15 will be like reprogressing the boss.
and for clevin: I might not grasp the mentality of a normal 10 Raider ( Im a GM of 10/13H 25man, different word) I still think that even normal Raiders want some sort of progress, and counting that they are normal raiders that Clearing 14/14N will take them some time, so why is everyone so surprised that they wont raid 100% time? Can they guarantee 100% attendance? from what I read from casual definition tossed here earlyer I highly doubt that so the rotation that Nobleshield keep mentioning is only thing that can save it from disbanding.
Some will, certainly. The more serious 10N guilds will, I think... say the upper 20, 25% of the current crop of 10N guilds. But the vast majority just want 'some sort of progress' and to raid with people who they know. MANY of those will get that progress in Flex, not normal. Remember, that these are mostly people who aren't invested in being seen as cream of the crop, heroic raiders, by definition. Most of them, or at least the ones I've known, would much rather kill 8 Flex bosses than 3 Normal bosses. Of the Flex guilds, some will also do some normals, but not all.
As for rotation... as I noted earlier I've done this as a RL and officer of a midrange 10N guild in previous xpacs and MoP. Rotating one, maybe two people in is doable, especially if some of them are also tanks and healers. But usually the tanks and healers are close to 100% and it's the DPS that rotates and swapping 8 people in 5 spots when you have 13 people is a pain in the ass. I've been there when the standby person logs off or doesn't show because they figure they won't get in... Pain. In. The. Ass if someone no show. And per boss rotation is just overhead and I hate taking time out of our 6-9 hours a week to swap people around.
Yes, it is "wasting time" when you rotate (read: not benching) but so is spamming trade, when Joe doesn't show up. So is trying to teach the pug what to do and so is calling the raid off entirely.
I don't think this is just about the attitude of Heroic raiders tbh. Or if Normal mode raiders/casuals really can't see past their own desires to raid, then they have no right to complain, when their RL have to cancel their raid, cause 1 person didn't show. To me it just doesn't make sense, that you'd rather rely on all 10 people to be there every single time, than just having a few extras.
Anyways, I agree that applying Flex to Normal mode is probably a good idea in the long run. Just as I believe that LFR should be removed from the game, when Flex takes over.
Also: Stop freaking twisting people's words, when they're talking about rotating players. It's not the same as benching and some of you seemingly can't figure out to distinguish between the two (not personally directed at you Clevin).
If players wants to leave a guild, cause they have to rotate - in order for the guild to be able to raid - then they can fuck off imo. Go find a guild that wants that shit attitude and then cry, when their raids are being cancelled, cause even one person doesn't show up. The mentality of some players are just beyond me.
As a little OT thing. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/show/patch...endary-ep-142/
On this weeks episode of Legendary, they actually have a very interesting discussion about casuals being upset about gated content, feeling treated like second rank players and feeling entitled to get the same rewards as Heroic raiders get etc. Kinda funny what they discuss and what Bashiok said about it as well.
Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-09-07 at 12:20 AM.
Communication - let the group solve the setup puzzle for you, If they get stuck on something than make informed decision. If they simply cant make any agreement than you raid with people not deserving the hospitality of your raiding guild(even normal), its natural to let someone equal take your place in raid if nothing beside Valor drops for you, or you dont have the high enough place on lootsystem you use (a bit tricky if you /roll for all gear).
offspec/alts of equivalent gear/skill level - so you can rotate more (and people like to play differently sometime if applicable). Really dont see you have 8 pure DPS classes that cant roll an alt. + its great thing to do if you are benched/rotated and your main is sitting in front of instance portal.
As i stated previously, ruining fun for others by not showing up should be punished by the raid group signaling that this behavior is not tolerated and not inviting him for extended time/never. That is for "Im not going to log because i dont feel like raiding tonight" without ensuring you really are not needed and RL knows it before raidtime (perfectly 1 day before).
Emergencies and unforseen events (extended worktime, Death, Natural disaster, blackout) or excused well known absence (Holyday week, wedding party, graduation, school exams) are fine and understandable.
You've been rotated in and out of a few fights because you're a nice guy like that and you want the guild to succeed so you don't mind. But now you're looking for another guild, and you're only 6/13H while your guild is 13/13H. You are 6/13H to other guilds, because nobody gives a shit what progress your guild is as that doesn't mean that you are as skilled (and can even work against you as the unasked question is "Why were YOU the one rotated out? Perhaps you were causing wipes on the fight"), so even if you were an amazing player you aren't presenting that to others because all you can say is "Well my guild is 13/13H but I'm only 6/13H because we rotate people in and out of fights as necessary".
That's one possible reason; it hurts you if you look for other guilds because you can't show the same level of progress as the guild, and it's your personal progress that really matters at the end of the day.
To me it sounds like all people that have experiences with people leaving from these reasons just had a terrible, terrible management in the guild. I have been in all types of guilds, all from extremely casual guilds (talking about the type of guilds that would not even clear normal when current) to serious heroic progression guilds. I have been officer and raid leader in more guilds than I care to count, over the last few years I have been in atleast 10 or 15 different raid teams, I have never ever heard someone leave because they did not get to raid. Now how it has been dealt with has been different, but all guilds had more than 10/25 raiders (probably 12/35 depending on raid size) A few ways that we dealt with being to many.
A) (casual hardcore guild) Raid being picked out the day before, those that gets on standby are not required to show up for the raid, but most people did anyway. A fair rotating schedule making sure all people gets to be standby just as much.
B) (hardcore guild) Raid being picked out 15 minutes before raid start. All players including those not in the raid are required to stay online, rotating happens on a lot of bosses, for loot on farm and for performance on progress.
C) (casual guild) Raid does not get picked out in advance, check how many people are online for raid. If we are more players than needed, step one was to ask "Does someone want to pass their spot today?", in 90% of cases, always someone that wanted to take a break anyway and volonteered. In case not, a simple /roll.
Using these systems for the guilds where they seem to fit (obviously option B does not fit in a casual guild), I have never, ever, heard any complaints. As long as everyone is on the same page about what is happening.
The only guilds I have ever seen going to complete shit is the guilds that only have 10 players. Having a 10 man roster leads to pugging and/or raid cancelling whenever someone is missing. I have been in 3 guilds this expansion that fell apart for this reason. From my experience, not keeping substitutes kills raid teams, rotating people does not.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.
*since you are 8/12HC you are way more dedicated then normal guilds*
Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-09-07 at 03:22 AM.