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  1. #681
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

    And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.
    I agree with that, but I think what he meant was what I said; you have an extra 30% players who are on and get swapped in/out so you maintain a solid geared core of people.
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  2. #682
    Nobleshield... You keep championing rotating people but most normal mode guilds just aren't going to do this unless they have to. Through 5.3 they did have to do this (or they ran with 10 only and risked the raid being cancelled or having to recruit a pug at the last minute) but in 5.4 they can simply run Flex and fit in all 13... or 11... or 10. If someone will be late, they can start with 10 and add the 11th on the fly.

    I'm sure some normal mode RLs with delusions of grandeur will balk at this, but what will happen is that the people being rotated will simply leave for a flex guild in a lot of cases where they don't have to deal with this. What you keep missing is that since by definition most normal mode guilds aren't hardcore, they attract people who are less into the whole rotation, planning, DKP for sitting out stuff.

  3. #683
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Oh I get it, I just think that while Flex will appeal to a majority of people, you're going to get folks that want more than Flex, in short because Flex will still carry the stigma of not being real raiding but being "LFR+". If you've seen my previous thoughts on Flex I think that Normal is going to fade out to just be a stepping stone to heroics; there will be no guilds that clear normal and is then pretty much done, with no desire to bother with heroic modes. Either you clear normal and dabble in heroics (and therefore are a more serious guild) or you mostly run flex and dabble in normal. Normal becomes Heroic for the Flex guilds, basically.
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  4. #684
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Oh I get it, I just think that while Flex will appeal to a majority of people, you're going to get folks that want more than Flex, in short because Flex will still carry the stigma of not being real raiding but being "LFR+". If you've seen my previous thoughts on Flex I think that Normal is going to fade out to just be a stepping stone to heroics; there will be no guilds that clear normal and is then pretty much done, with no desire to bother with heroic modes. Either you clear normal and dabble in heroics (and therefore are a more serious guild) or you mostly run flex and dabble in normal. Normal becomes Heroic for the Flex guilds, basically.
    Normal might be wanted, but it's no use to the guy who doesn't get to go.

    So he will leave.

    And then the guys who are left behind won't be able to do normals either (for very long), because they needed the benched guy.

    The choice is either flexi first to keep everyone happy and then normals afterwards (time permitting) or watch your bench walk out, and then not be able to run because of lack of manpower and then shortly afterwards guild failure.
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  5. #685
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    Most normal guilds are like this to some degree, especially 10 mans. Not crybabies, but it's hard to rotate more than 1-2 people. What usually happens is that it' the DPS who rotate and if you have 5 DPS with 3 extra, you cant avoid having each of them sit a fair amount. 1 Extra? Not an issue. can you rotate on a per boss basis? Sure, but again, most normal mode 10 mans aren't staffed with people who want to sit around while others kill a boss nor are most of the RLs wanting to track who needs what loot.

    Bottom line? Most 10N guilds are pretty casual and it will be FAR easier for them to just avoid any of this crap and run Flex. NOTE NOTE NOTE: I'm talking about 10N raids... not 10H. Those are very different and the people who app to them know what to expect for the most part.

  7. #687
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched?
    What guilds have you been a part of where they haven't? (Guessing - Hardcore HC guilds.)

    I've been a GM for years. People ragequitting after not being taken, or just gently floating away after not been taken is the default behaviour I've seen. (I get round it by simply putting more raids on, letting other people RL etc but that's fairly rare I think.)
    This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    He's still going to look for a guild once you boot him. Something that a lot of the very organised and very hardcore people never seem to realise is that a lot of the people they discard for being bad, selfish, not a team player etc etc - still play wow.

    It's also pretty easy to string people along if you can give them HC and normal mode loot in the future. The average guild hasn't got that carrot because they don't do HC's and they don't clear normals until near the end of the patch cycle.

    Or, to put it another way, Would you stick around a guild that didn't take you raiding and that also wasn't going to clear normal mode for the next few months?

    When theres a flexi guild who will take you right now and you can raid this week?

    I'm guessing your answer (and most peoples answer) is going to be "fuck no" and I fail to see anything wrong with that answer.
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  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Normal might be wanted, but it's no use to the guy who doesn't get to go.

    So he will leave.

    And then the guys who are left behind won't be able to do normals either (for very long), because they needed the benched guy.

    The choice is either flexi first to keep everyone happy and then normals afterwards (time permitting) or watch your bench walk out, and then not be able to run because of lack of manpower and then shortly afterwards guild failure.
    Unless Blizzard bow down to the casual crowd again even more and allow 8man Flex the named 10N, who have 10 and sometime 9 people, will again need to pug or recruit more. I highly doubt that any N player will research what damage will be dealt on different number of people (giving it that Flex will raid for 10-15 people) and adapt ever changing strategy depending on setup (healer/dps counts).
    While i doubt that Flex will be "that" hard, making tact for 10 and than next week for 15 will be like reprogressing the boss.

    and for clevin: I might not grasp the mentality of a normal 10 Raider ( Im a GM of 10/13H 25man, different word) I still think that even normal Raiders want some sort of progress, and counting that they are normal raiders that Clearing 14/14N will take them some time, so why is everyone so surprised that they wont raid 100% time? Can they guarantee 100% attendance? from what I read from casual definition tossed here earlyer I highly doubt that so the rotation that Nobleshield keep mentioning is only thing that can save it from disbanding.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    and for clevin: I might not grasp the mentality of a normal 10 Raider ( Im a GM of 10/13H 25man, different word) I still think that even normal Raiders want some sort of progress, and counting that they are normal raiders that Clearing 14/14N will take them some time, so why is everyone so surprised that they wont raid 100% time? Can they guarantee 100% attendance? from what I read from casual definition tossed here earlyer I highly doubt that so the rotation that Nobleshield keep mentioning is only thing that can save it from disbanding.

    Some will, certainly. The more serious 10N guilds will, I think... say the upper 20, 25% of the current crop of 10N guilds. But the vast majority just want 'some sort of progress' and to raid with people who they know. MANY of those will get that progress in Flex, not normal. Remember, that these are mostly people who aren't invested in being seen as cream of the crop, heroic raiders, by definition. Most of them, or at least the ones I've known, would much rather kill 8 Flex bosses than 3 Normal bosses. Of the Flex guilds, some will also do some normals, but not all.

    As for rotation... as I noted earlier I've done this as a RL and officer of a midrange 10N guild in previous xpacs and MoP. Rotating one, maybe two people in is doable, especially if some of them are also tanks and healers. But usually the tanks and healers are close to 100% and it's the DPS that rotates and swapping 8 people in 5 spots when you have 13 people is a pain in the ass. I've been there when the standby person logs off or doesn't show because they figure they won't get in... Pain. In. The. Ass if someone no show. And per boss rotation is just overhead and I hate taking time out of our 6-9 hours a week to swap people around.

  10. #690
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    read my post again. You seem to be assuming that the players have the same attitude as hard core players and they don't for the most part (10 man heroic raids being the exception). Given the attitude difference, you get drama, people who are on standby who just figure they won't get into raid so they don't login... and then someone who was in the raid no shows.... etc. Normal mode raiders don't generally want to sit outside the instance twiddling their thumbs. Plus you have to wait for the new person to run all the way to you... etc... it's wasted time for the rest of the raid and most 10N raids are 2-3 nights for something like 6-12 hours a week. Too many instances of swapping players start to become real chunks of time out of the raid.

    How do I know this? Because I've RL and been an officer in guilds like this for years and know others in the same boat. 10N guilds just aren't built for rotating players in and out regularly. So, instead, if a 10N guild routinely has 11+ people who want to raid it's FAR easier to just do Flex. It's not like Normal has tons of prestige anyway and moving to Flex avoids a ton of hassles. Will SOME 10N guilds survive? Sure, just like there are some 25s. But most 10s will become either flex raids or 10H raids that do serious progression in the 10 man format.
    I did read your post again but I'm starting to feel that I really have no clue about casual guilds, cause I simply don't get this mindset. Why on earth would you rather have to call your entire raid off, than rotate with 12-13 guildies? Also, the part about "running the whole way to you" thing. Well, there's always the option of using a Hearth Stone, leaving the raid and get ported. For the person who joins, you rarely have to run far. Cause after a few bosses, you're zoned closer to the next boss.

    Yes, it is "wasting time" when you rotate (read: not benching) but so is spamming trade, when Joe doesn't show up. So is trying to teach the pug what to do and so is calling the raid off entirely.

    I don't think this is just about the attitude of Heroic raiders tbh. Or if Normal mode raiders/casuals really can't see past their own desires to raid, then they have no right to complain, when their RL have to cancel their raid, cause 1 person didn't show. To me it just doesn't make sense, that you'd rather rely on all 10 people to be there every single time, than just having a few extras.

    Anyways, I agree that applying Flex to Normal mode is probably a good idea in the long run. Just as I believe that LFR should be removed from the game, when Flex takes over.

    Also: Stop freaking twisting people's words, when they're talking about rotating players. It's not the same as benching and some of you seemingly can't figure out to distinguish between the two (not personally directed at you Clevin).

    If players wants to leave a guild, cause they have to rotate - in order for the guild to be able to raid - then they can fuck off imo. Go find a guild that wants that shit attitude and then cry, when their raids are being cancelled, cause even one person doesn't show up. The mentality of some players are just beyond me.

    As a little OT thing. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/show/patch...endary-ep-142/

    On this weeks episode of Legendary, they actually have a very interesting discussion about casuals being upset about gated content, feeling treated like second rank players and feeling entitled to get the same rewards as Heroic raiders get etc. Kinda funny what they discuss and what Bashiok said about it as well.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-09-07 at 12:20 AM.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Some will, certainly. The more serious 10N guilds will, I think... say the upper 20, 25% of the current crop of 10N guilds. But the vast majority just want 'some sort of progress' and to raid with people who they know. MANY of those will get that progress in Flex, not normal. Remember, that these are mostly people who aren't invested in being seen as cream of the crop, heroic raiders, by definition. Most of them, or at least the ones I've known, would much rather kill 8 Flex bosses than 3 Normal bosses. Of the Flex guilds, some will also do some normals, but not all.

    As for rotation... as I noted earlier I've done this as a RL and officer of a midrange 10N guild in previous xpacs and MoP. Rotating one, maybe two people in is doable, especially if some of them are also tanks and healers. But usually the tanks and healers are close to 100% and it's the DPS that rotates and swapping 8 people in 5 spots when you have 13 people is a pain in the ass.
    I will say that doing Flex before normal will be perfect for Normal Guild. clear 14/14 and onward to Norm. the "Flex Guild" that keeps be tossed around here seems to me like "Flex or die" attitude where doing normals if forbidden. Its normal when you run out of things you step forward in difficulty, that why Normal guild clearing 14/14 will eventually become HC guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    per boss rotation is just overhead and I hate taking time out of our 6-9 hours a week to swap people around.
    Rotation solutions:

    Communication - let the group solve the setup puzzle for you, If they get stuck on something than make informed decision. If they simply cant make any agreement than you raid with people not deserving the hospitality of your raiding guild(even normal), its natural to let someone equal take your place in raid if nothing beside Valor drops for you, or you dont have the high enough place on lootsystem you use (a bit tricky if you /roll for all gear).

    offspec/alts of equivalent gear/skill level - so you can rotate more (and people like to play differently sometime if applicable). Really dont see you have 8 pure DPS classes that cant roll an alt. + its great thing to do if you are benched/rotated and your main is sitting in front of instance portal.

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    I've been there when the standby person logs off or doesn't show because they figure they won't get in... Pain. In. The. Ass if someone no show.
    are you in touch when they log out? (TS,VT,Phone, Battletag). If not than you have problem. If you do than simple "we need you" usually helps to bring the person back. If not, than you have one more person to recruit and one more to "not really liking it but" kick out of raid.
    As i stated previously, ruining fun for others by not showing up should be punished by the raid group signaling that this behavior is not tolerated and not inviting him for extended time/never. That is for "Im not going to log because i dont feel like raiding tonight" without ensuring you really are not needed and RL knows it before raidtime (perfectly 1 day before).
    Emergencies and unforseen events (extended worktime, Death, Natural disaster, blackout) or excused well known absence (Holyday week, wedding party, graduation, school exams) are fine and understandable.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    Same. I don't get why people hate "the bench" so much. Personally I'd want the raid to have the best comp for each progression boss and if my class isn't as good as another class on that fight I'd gladly sit for that other person. As a WW monk, I literally got my first Heroic Dark Animus kill this reset even though my guild had that boss on farm for 12 weeks. If there's a fight like H DA where "no raid cooldown = GTFO," I'd be the first to offer to sit for a better class.

  13. #693
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Same. I don't get why people hate "the bench" so much. Personally I'd want the raid to have the best comp for each progression boss and if my class isn't as good as another class on that fight I'd gladly sit for that other person. As a WW monk, I literally got my first Heroic Dark Animus kill this reset even though my guild had that boss on farm for 12 weeks. If there's a fight like H DA where "no raid cooldown = GTFO," I'd be the first to offer to sit for a better class.
    Although I argue for rotating, I can speak to the reason for this. It's because at the end of the day, your toon's progress is more important overall than your guild. What I mean is, if you are in a 13/13H guild but you happen to be 2/13H, then for all intents and purposes you are 2/13H. If you are sat on a boss, that's one less boss that you get to kill (at least reasonably, as it can be assumed at some point you'll be there for the kill) which means you're one more boss short of however many heroic bosses. Now if you are in a great guild and never have reason to leave, that's not a big deal. But, let's say that things go sour and you look to leave your great guild, or let's say for a nicer example that you get a new job/start a new semester and can't meet your current guild's raid schedule anymore, so you need to look elsewhere for progress.

    You've been rotated in and out of a few fights because you're a nice guy like that and you want the guild to succeed so you don't mind. But now you're looking for another guild, and you're only 6/13H while your guild is 13/13H. You are 6/13H to other guilds, because nobody gives a shit what progress your guild is as that doesn't mean that you are as skilled (and can even work against you as the unasked question is "Why were YOU the one rotated out? Perhaps you were causing wipes on the fight"), so even if you were an amazing player you aren't presenting that to others because all you can say is "Well my guild is 13/13H but I'm only 6/13H because we rotate people in and out of fights as necessary".

    That's one possible reason; it hurts you if you look for other guilds because you can't show the same level of progress as the guild, and it's your personal progress that really matters at the end of the day.
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  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Although I argue for rotating, I can speak to the reason for this. It's because at the end of the day, your toon's progress is more important overall than your guild. What I mean is, if you are in a 13/13H guild but you happen to be 2/13H, then for all intents and purposes you are 2/13H. If you are sat on a boss, that's one less boss that you get to kill (at least reasonably, as it can be assumed at some point you'll be there for the kill) which means you're one more boss short of however many heroic bosses. Now if you are in a great guild and never have reason to leave, that's not a big deal. But, let's say that things go sour and you look to leave your great guild, or let's say for a nicer example that you get a new job/start a new semester and can't meet your current guild's raid schedule anymore, so you need to look elsewhere for progress.

    You've been rotated in and out of a few fights because you're a nice guy like that and you want the guild to succeed so you don't mind. But now you're looking for another guild, and you're only 6/13H while your guild is 13/13H. You are 6/13H to other guilds, because nobody gives a shit what progress your guild is as that doesn't mean that you are as skilled (and can even work against you as the unasked question is "Why were YOU the one rotated out? Perhaps you were causing wipes on the fight"), so even if you were an amazing player you aren't presenting that to others because all you can say is "Well my guild is 13/13H but I'm only 6/13H because we rotate people in and out of fights as necessary".

    That's one possible reason; it hurts you if you look for other guilds because you can't show the same level of progress as the guild, and it's your personal progress that really matters at the end of the day.
    Yeah, but if your raid is 13/13 and you are 2/13 or 6/13, you are not being rotated, you are being benched.

    To me it sounds like all people that have experiences with people leaving from these reasons just had a terrible, terrible management in the guild. I have been in all types of guilds, all from extremely casual guilds (talking about the type of guilds that would not even clear normal when current) to serious heroic progression guilds. I have been officer and raid leader in more guilds than I care to count, over the last few years I have been in atleast 10 or 15 different raid teams, I have never ever heard someone leave because they did not get to raid. Now how it has been dealt with has been different, but all guilds had more than 10/25 raiders (probably 12/35 depending on raid size) A few ways that we dealt with being to many.

    A) (casual hardcore guild) Raid being picked out the day before, those that gets on standby are not required to show up for the raid, but most people did anyway. A fair rotating schedule making sure all people gets to be standby just as much.

    B) (hardcore guild) Raid being picked out 15 minutes before raid start. All players including those not in the raid are required to stay online, rotating happens on a lot of bosses, for loot on farm and for performance on progress.

    C) (casual guild) Raid does not get picked out in advance, check how many people are online for raid. If we are more players than needed, step one was to ask "Does someone want to pass their spot today?", in 90% of cases, always someone that wanted to take a break anyway and volonteered. In case not, a simple /roll.


    Using these systems for the guilds where they seem to fit (obviously option B does not fit in a casual guild), I have never, ever, heard any complaints. As long as everyone is on the same page about what is happening.

    The only guilds I have ever seen going to complete shit is the guilds that only have 10 players. Having a 10 man roster leads to pugging and/or raid cancelling whenever someone is missing. I have been in 3 guilds this expansion that fell apart for this reason. From my experience, not keeping substitutes kills raid teams, rotating people does not.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #695
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.
    Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

    I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

    I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.
    I am sorry I offended you but no need to take that aggresive stance. Yes, there are exceptions but in most of times that 1 guy will be missing and it's wise to have some replacements. I would call that good management. If it works with your guild that you have 10 players it's cool, but I think having substitues makes your guild even stronger.
    *since you are 8/12HC you are way more dedicated then normal guilds*
    Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-09-07 at 03:22 AM.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am sorry I offended you but no need to take that aggresive stance. Yes, there are exceptions but in most of times that 1 guy will be missing and it's wise to have some replacements. I would call that good management. If it works with your guild that you have 10 players it's cool, but I think having substitues makes your guild even stronger.
    *since you are 8/12HC you are way more dedicated then normal guilds*
    You didn't offend me. The blatantly incorrect stuff you stated did. Theres a difference.

    I don't disagree having subs is a good thing. I do disagree with blanket "can't" statements. Millions upon millions of people playing the game, there is no one size fits all.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You didn't offend me. The blatantly incorrect stuff you stated did. Theres a difference.

    I don't disagree having subs is a good thing. I do disagree with blanket "can't" statements. Millions upon millions of people playing the game, there is no one size fits all.
    It's not incorrect. Many guilds have problems if they only have 10 man in their roster. For a long term guilds, having only 10 people will surely lead to death of guild. And by long term, I mean guilds who are here for more then one expansion. Will it work having only 10 man for shorter period of time? Yes. But for long term I really don't see anything good coming from it.

  20. #700
    Herald of the Titans Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.
    My guild was 1/13th heroic. We have had 11 people since we downsized from 25-10 because it was a nightmare. One raider took a 5 week vacation in 5.3 and we have had 10 raiders that whole time. 2 tanks, 3 heals if needed and 5 dps.

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