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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    and for clevin: I might not grasp the mentality of a normal 10 Raider ( Im a GM of 10/13H 25man, different word) I still think that even normal Raiders want some sort of progress, and counting that they are normal raiders that Clearing 14/14N will take them some time, so why is everyone so surprised that they wont raid 100% time? Can they guarantee 100% attendance? from what I read from casual definition tossed here earlyer I highly doubt that so the rotation that Nobleshield keep mentioning is only thing that can save it from disbanding.

    Some will, certainly. The more serious 10N guilds will, I think... say the upper 20, 25% of the current crop of 10N guilds. But the vast majority just want 'some sort of progress' and to raid with people who they know. MANY of those will get that progress in Flex, not normal. Remember, that these are mostly people who aren't invested in being seen as cream of the crop, heroic raiders, by definition. Most of them, or at least the ones I've known, would much rather kill 8 Flex bosses than 3 Normal bosses. Of the Flex guilds, some will also do some normals, but not all.

    As for rotation... as I noted earlier I've done this as a RL and officer of a midrange 10N guild in previous xpacs and MoP. Rotating one, maybe two people in is doable, especially if some of them are also tanks and healers. But usually the tanks and healers are close to 100% and it's the DPS that rotates and swapping 8 people in 5 spots when you have 13 people is a pain in the ass. I've been there when the standby person logs off or doesn't show because they figure they won't get in... Pain. In. The. Ass if someone no show. And per boss rotation is just overhead and I hate taking time out of our 6-9 hours a week to swap people around.

  2. #682
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    read my post again. You seem to be assuming that the players have the same attitude as hard core players and they don't for the most part (10 man heroic raids being the exception). Given the attitude difference, you get drama, people who are on standby who just figure they won't get into raid so they don't login... and then someone who was in the raid no shows.... etc. Normal mode raiders don't generally want to sit outside the instance twiddling their thumbs. Plus you have to wait for the new person to run all the way to you... etc... it's wasted time for the rest of the raid and most 10N raids are 2-3 nights for something like 6-12 hours a week. Too many instances of swapping players start to become real chunks of time out of the raid.

    How do I know this? Because I've RL and been an officer in guilds like this for years and know others in the same boat. 10N guilds just aren't built for rotating players in and out regularly. So, instead, if a 10N guild routinely has 11+ people who want to raid it's FAR easier to just do Flex. It's not like Normal has tons of prestige anyway and moving to Flex avoids a ton of hassles. Will SOME 10N guilds survive? Sure, just like there are some 25s. But most 10s will become either flex raids or 10H raids that do serious progression in the 10 man format.
    I did read your post again but I'm starting to feel that I really have no clue about casual guilds, cause I simply don't get this mindset. Why on earth would you rather have to call your entire raid off, than rotate with 12-13 guildies? Also, the part about "running the whole way to you" thing. Well, there's always the option of using a Hearth Stone, leaving the raid and get ported. For the person who joins, you rarely have to run far. Cause after a few bosses, you're zoned closer to the next boss.

    Yes, it is "wasting time" when you rotate (read: not benching) but so is spamming trade, when Joe doesn't show up. So is trying to teach the pug what to do and so is calling the raid off entirely.

    I don't think this is just about the attitude of Heroic raiders tbh. Or if Normal mode raiders/casuals really can't see past their own desires to raid, then they have no right to complain, when their RL have to cancel their raid, cause 1 person didn't show. To me it just doesn't make sense, that you'd rather rely on all 10 people to be there every single time, than just having a few extras.

    Anyways, I agree that applying Flex to Normal mode is probably a good idea in the long run. Just as I believe that LFR should be removed from the game, when Flex takes over.

    Also: Stop freaking twisting people's words, when they're talking about rotating players. It's not the same as benching and some of you seemingly can't figure out to distinguish between the two (not personally directed at you Clevin).

    If players wants to leave a guild, cause they have to rotate - in order for the guild to be able to raid - then they can fuck off imo. Go find a guild that wants that shit attitude and then cry, when their raids are being cancelled, cause even one person doesn't show up. The mentality of some players are just beyond me.

    As a little OT thing. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/show/patch...endary-ep-142/

    On this weeks episode of Legendary, they actually have a very interesting discussion about casuals being upset about gated content, feeling treated like second rank players and feeling entitled to get the same rewards as Heroic raiders get etc. Kinda funny what they discuss and what Bashiok said about it as well.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-09-07 at 12:20 AM.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Some will, certainly. The more serious 10N guilds will, I think... say the upper 20, 25% of the current crop of 10N guilds. But the vast majority just want 'some sort of progress' and to raid with people who they know. MANY of those will get that progress in Flex, not normal. Remember, that these are mostly people who aren't invested in being seen as cream of the crop, heroic raiders, by definition. Most of them, or at least the ones I've known, would much rather kill 8 Flex bosses than 3 Normal bosses. Of the Flex guilds, some will also do some normals, but not all.

    As for rotation... as I noted earlier I've done this as a RL and officer of a midrange 10N guild in previous xpacs and MoP. Rotating one, maybe two people in is doable, especially if some of them are also tanks and healers. But usually the tanks and healers are close to 100% and it's the DPS that rotates and swapping 8 people in 5 spots when you have 13 people is a pain in the ass.
    I will say that doing Flex before normal will be perfect for Normal Guild. clear 14/14 and onward to Norm. the "Flex Guild" that keeps be tossed around here seems to me like "Flex or die" attitude where doing normals if forbidden. Its normal when you run out of things you step forward in difficulty, that why Normal guild clearing 14/14 will eventually become HC guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    per boss rotation is just overhead and I hate taking time out of our 6-9 hours a week to swap people around.
    Rotation solutions:

    Communication - let the group solve the setup puzzle for you, If they get stuck on something than make informed decision. If they simply cant make any agreement than you raid with people not deserving the hospitality of your raiding guild(even normal), its natural to let someone equal take your place in raid if nothing beside Valor drops for you, or you dont have the high enough place on lootsystem you use (a bit tricky if you /roll for all gear).

    offspec/alts of equivalent gear/skill level - so you can rotate more (and people like to play differently sometime if applicable). Really dont see you have 8 pure DPS classes that cant roll an alt. + its great thing to do if you are benched/rotated and your main is sitting in front of instance portal.

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    I've been there when the standby person logs off or doesn't show because they figure they won't get in... Pain. In. The. Ass if someone no show.
    are you in touch when they log out? (TS,VT,Phone, Battletag). If not than you have problem. If you do than simple "we need you" usually helps to bring the person back. If not, than you have one more person to recruit and one more to "not really liking it but" kick out of raid.
    As i stated previously, ruining fun for others by not showing up should be punished by the raid group signaling that this behavior is not tolerated and not inviting him for extended time/never. That is for "Im not going to log because i dont feel like raiding tonight" without ensuring you really are not needed and RL knows it before raidtime (perfectly 1 day before).
    Emergencies and unforseen events (extended worktime, Death, Natural disaster, blackout) or excused well known absence (Holyday week, wedding party, graduation, school exams) are fine and understandable.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    What kind of guilds have you guys been part of where people cry or just leave the instant they get benched? This sounds like an incredibly mismanaged raid (i.e. benched on every fight and/or week after week) or someone with a seriously selfish and detrimental attitude whom you'd be better off without anyways.
    Same. I don't get why people hate "the bench" so much. Personally I'd want the raid to have the best comp for each progression boss and if my class isn't as good as another class on that fight I'd gladly sit for that other person. As a WW monk, I literally got my first Heroic Dark Animus kill this reset even though my guild had that boss on farm for 12 weeks. If there's a fight like H DA where "no raid cooldown = GTFO," I'd be the first to offer to sit for a better class.

  5. #685
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Same. I don't get why people hate "the bench" so much. Personally I'd want the raid to have the best comp for each progression boss and if my class isn't as good as another class on that fight I'd gladly sit for that other person. As a WW monk, I literally got my first Heroic Dark Animus kill this reset even though my guild had that boss on farm for 12 weeks. If there's a fight like H DA where "no raid cooldown = GTFO," I'd be the first to offer to sit for a better class.
    Although I argue for rotating, I can speak to the reason for this. It's because at the end of the day, your toon's progress is more important overall than your guild. What I mean is, if you are in a 13/13H guild but you happen to be 2/13H, then for all intents and purposes you are 2/13H. If you are sat on a boss, that's one less boss that you get to kill (at least reasonably, as it can be assumed at some point you'll be there for the kill) which means you're one more boss short of however many heroic bosses. Now if you are in a great guild and never have reason to leave, that's not a big deal. But, let's say that things go sour and you look to leave your great guild, or let's say for a nicer example that you get a new job/start a new semester and can't meet your current guild's raid schedule anymore, so you need to look elsewhere for progress.

    You've been rotated in and out of a few fights because you're a nice guy like that and you want the guild to succeed so you don't mind. But now you're looking for another guild, and you're only 6/13H while your guild is 13/13H. You are 6/13H to other guilds, because nobody gives a shit what progress your guild is as that doesn't mean that you are as skilled (and can even work against you as the unasked question is "Why were YOU the one rotated out? Perhaps you were causing wipes on the fight"), so even if you were an amazing player you aren't presenting that to others because all you can say is "Well my guild is 13/13H but I'm only 6/13H because we rotate people in and out of fights as necessary".

    That's one possible reason; it hurts you if you look for other guilds because you can't show the same level of progress as the guild, and it's your personal progress that really matters at the end of the day.
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  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Although I argue for rotating, I can speak to the reason for this. It's because at the end of the day, your toon's progress is more important overall than your guild. What I mean is, if you are in a 13/13H guild but you happen to be 2/13H, then for all intents and purposes you are 2/13H. If you are sat on a boss, that's one less boss that you get to kill (at least reasonably, as it can be assumed at some point you'll be there for the kill) which means you're one more boss short of however many heroic bosses. Now if you are in a great guild and never have reason to leave, that's not a big deal. But, let's say that things go sour and you look to leave your great guild, or let's say for a nicer example that you get a new job/start a new semester and can't meet your current guild's raid schedule anymore, so you need to look elsewhere for progress.

    You've been rotated in and out of a few fights because you're a nice guy like that and you want the guild to succeed so you don't mind. But now you're looking for another guild, and you're only 6/13H while your guild is 13/13H. You are 6/13H to other guilds, because nobody gives a shit what progress your guild is as that doesn't mean that you are as skilled (and can even work against you as the unasked question is "Why were YOU the one rotated out? Perhaps you were causing wipes on the fight"), so even if you were an amazing player you aren't presenting that to others because all you can say is "Well my guild is 13/13H but I'm only 6/13H because we rotate people in and out of fights as necessary".

    That's one possible reason; it hurts you if you look for other guilds because you can't show the same level of progress as the guild, and it's your personal progress that really matters at the end of the day.
    Yeah, but if your raid is 13/13 and you are 2/13 or 6/13, you are not being rotated, you are being benched.

    To me it sounds like all people that have experiences with people leaving from these reasons just had a terrible, terrible management in the guild. I have been in all types of guilds, all from extremely casual guilds (talking about the type of guilds that would not even clear normal when current) to serious heroic progression guilds. I have been officer and raid leader in more guilds than I care to count, over the last few years I have been in atleast 10 or 15 different raid teams, I have never ever heard someone leave because they did not get to raid. Now how it has been dealt with has been different, but all guilds had more than 10/25 raiders (probably 12/35 depending on raid size) A few ways that we dealt with being to many.

    A) (casual hardcore guild) Raid being picked out the day before, those that gets on standby are not required to show up for the raid, but most people did anyway. A fair rotating schedule making sure all people gets to be standby just as much.

    B) (hardcore guild) Raid being picked out 15 minutes before raid start. All players including those not in the raid are required to stay online, rotating happens on a lot of bosses, for loot on farm and for performance on progress.

    C) (casual guild) Raid does not get picked out in advance, check how many people are online for raid. If we are more players than needed, step one was to ask "Does someone want to pass their spot today?", in 90% of cases, always someone that wanted to take a break anyway and volonteered. In case not, a simple /roll.


    Using these systems for the guilds where they seem to fit (obviously option B does not fit in a casual guild), I have never, ever, heard any complaints. As long as everyone is on the same page about what is happening.

    The only guilds I have ever seen going to complete shit is the guilds that only have 10 players. Having a 10 man roster leads to pugging and/or raid cancelling whenever someone is missing. I have been in 3 guilds this expansion that fell apart for this reason. From my experience, not keeping substitutes kills raid teams, rotating people does not.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #687
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.
    Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

    I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

    I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.
    I am sorry I offended you but no need to take that aggresive stance. Yes, there are exceptions but in most of times that 1 guy will be missing and it's wise to have some replacements. I would call that good management. If it works with your guild that you have 10 players it's cool, but I think having substitues makes your guild even stronger.
    *since you are 8/12HC you are way more dedicated then normal guilds*
    Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-09-07 at 03:22 AM.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am sorry I offended you but no need to take that aggresive stance. Yes, there are exceptions but in most of times that 1 guy will be missing and it's wise to have some replacements. I would call that good management. If it works with your guild that you have 10 players it's cool, but I think having substitues makes your guild even stronger.
    *since you are 8/12HC you are way more dedicated then normal guilds*
    You didn't offend me. The blatantly incorrect stuff you stated did. Theres a difference.

    I don't disagree having subs is a good thing. I do disagree with blanket "can't" statements. Millions upon millions of people playing the game, there is no one size fits all.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You didn't offend me. The blatantly incorrect stuff you stated did. Theres a difference.

    I don't disagree having subs is a good thing. I do disagree with blanket "can't" statements. Millions upon millions of people playing the game, there is no one size fits all.
    It's not incorrect. Many guilds have problems if they only have 10 man in their roster. For a long term guilds, having only 10 people will surely lead to death of guild. And by long term, I mean guilds who are here for more then one expansion. Will it work having only 10 man for shorter period of time? Yes. But for long term I really don't see anything good coming from it.

  12. #692
    The Lightbringer Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    You can't have successful 10N guild with 10 raiders. We have 3 tanks, 3-4 healers and 7-8 dps = around 15 raiders and it really works great.
    My guild was 1/13th heroic. We have had 11 people since we downsized from 25-10 because it was a nightmare. One raider took a 5 week vacation in 5.3 and we have had 10 raiders that whole time. 2 tanks, 3 heals if needed and 5 dps.

  13. #693
    The way I see it:

    LFR- If you don't have a guild, or alot of time to play the game and learn every single mechanic of a normal raid, do it.

    Flex- Want to do normal, but can't because some jerkwad decided to say "Yes" and didn't show up anyway, causing the rest of your guildies to be pissed off because the content is now impossible to complete? Now you have the option to do that at the expense of lesser item lvl drops.

    Normal- Got 10 or 25 people that showed up? Do it.

    Heroic- Got 10 or 25 people that showed up and is willing to go balls to the walls against the hardest content Blizzard could currently offer? Knock yourself out...again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and again and aga...


    I honestly don't see why this is a big deal. If you got the people, do the content. Why care about the person getting the bronze medal when you are getting the gold medal?

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    It's not incorrect. Many guilds have problems if they only have 10 man in their roster. For a long term guilds, having only 10 people will surely lead to death of guild. And by long term, I mean guilds who are here for more then one expansion. Will it work having only 10 man for shorter period of time? Yes. But for long term I really don't see anything good coming from it.
    I just presented you with our situation which is at complete disagreement with your statement. That makes it incorrect, wrong, inaccurate, not right, mistaken.... Getting the picture?

    You said "can't" be successful. I just said you can. Theres plenty of examples of it. Just because your opinion "I don't see anything good coming from it" differs it doesn't make you right.

  15. #695
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The only guilds I have ever seen going to complete shit is the guilds that only have 10 players. Having a 10 man roster leads to pugging and/or raid cancelling whenever someone is missing. I have been in 3 guilds this expansion that fell apart for this reason. From my experience, not keeping substitutes kills raid teams, rotating people does not.
    In a world where people either put up with rotating or don't raid, that's true.

    When theres an untaken option to raid, it's not going to.

    Quick note on something you mentioned and a few others did as well "bad management" - well, duh. Just like being amazing at dps doesn't get handed out at birth, neither do great managerial skills. It's completely normal for people to be doing 50% of their max dps and it's completely normal for people to be shit at guild management. It's not like most people get a lot of experience man managing in their daily lives either, most are workers (or in wows case mostly workers/students/unemployed.)

    Once again, sitting there with your arms folded going "BAD!!! THAT'S BAD!!!111" doesn't change anything.

    Wow is a game of incentives. Minus the HC loot/HC cache/HC achievement carrot you can forget about asking people to sit in a city waiting for your call.
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  16. #696
    Guild management and doing dps is hardly comparative. Doing good dps is a matter of knowledge, gear, presence of mind to keep your rotation and natural ability to mash buttons. Making good decisions for the raid is common sense, somethig that anyone should have learned. If you do not realise that being 10 people on every raid and your raiders dont have remotely close to 100% attendancy is asking for trouble, or that if you have more than 10 people, you should not bench the same guy over and over and over again, you should probably not be in the position of someone calling the decisions.

    I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.

    Now, as said, this is only my own experiences, but I think that with all my time in WoW I would have seen this issue atleast once if it actually was one. A lot of people seem to share this opinion in this thread though, leading me to think that my experiences are not unique. The only people that seems to parade with the flag that being rotated makes people leave guilds, are the same people that always come with exaggerations, so forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt until some more reliable and neutral players come forth with the same opinion.

    For all sense and purposes, the only scenarios that you have described with people getting mad because being rotated, has to me sound like guilds where the guild master has no business being guild master as he has (most likely) done quite a terrible job. The guilds you describe seem to have no set baseline or communication between members.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-09-07 at 10:48 AM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #697
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Guild management and doing dps is hardly comparative.
    Neither is the ability to understand concepts, apparently.
    Doing good dps is a matter of knowledge, gear, presence of mind to keep your rotation and natural ability to mash buttons. Making good decisions for the raid is common sense, somethig that anyone should have learned.
    They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.
    If you do not realise that being 10 people on every raid and your raiders dont have remotely close to 100% attendancy is asking for trouble, or that if you have more than 10 people, you should not bench the same guy over and over and over again, you should probably not be in the position of someone calling the decisions.
    No shit, really? And now, how is it actually like in reality. Oh, it's different than how you'd like it to be.

    Accept it then.
    I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.
    In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.
    Now, as said, this is only my own experiences, but I think that with all my time in WoW I would have seen this issue atleast once if it actually was one. A lot of people seem to share this opinion in this thread though, leading me to think that my experiences are not unique. The only people that seems to parade with the flag that being rotated makes people leave guilds, are the same people that always come with exaggerations, so forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt until some more reliable and neutral players come forth with the same opinion.

    For all sense and purposes, the only scenarios that you have described with people getting mad because being rotated, has to me sound like guilds where the guild master has no business being guild master as he has (most likely) done quite a terrible job. The guilds you describe seem to have no set baseline or communication between members.
    You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.

    it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

    Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

    Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?
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  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.
    So, if I understand this correctly, your main issue is based on people that are horrible leaders and should never in the first place be in a management role, making a guild, making terrible decisions, and it does not work out? I mean, honesty, everything you say seems like you have guild masters that are completely clueless about their guild and what they are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No shit, really? And now, how is it actually like in reality. Oh, it's different than how you'd like it to be.

    Accept it then.
    Maybe you should accept that your reality is not the only reality. If you had people in management with no management skills, than I'm sorry for you, but that is hardly the "reality". Must people leading guilds know how to make basic decisions. I am speaking from my reality of the game which includes dozens of guilds over the years. I can't accept there is another reality, since all the proof and evidence I have seen points to the opposite, as do most people in this thread. If anything, you should probably realise how the real reality is. Your problem is something that I have never even heard of existing, maybe it is unique to you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.
    Yes, of course. I do not even understand this. If your GM is benching you because he wants loot for himself, of course you should leave that raid. What was your point even? A GM doing this will not be a GM for long since that guild would disband almost instantly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.
    My experiences are not only hardcore, they vary from extremely casual to hardcore, name a type of guild and I have been in it, I know what is going on in all levels of guilds in WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

    Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

    Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?
    I would probably raid in the guild where I feel the most home and know the people the best, as I get to raid in both examples.
    First example seems pretty extreme though. Most guilds will probably do flexi before normal. If your guild is going into normal before flexi, it is probably a more hardcore guild, in which case you as a player probably expect being rotated out. Even so, being benched for 2 raids is also highly unlikely.

    So I do not really understand your choice of using "an average player", as your first example does not display an average raiding guild. Basically you said
    "We have a hardcore raiding guild and an average raiding guild, which guild is the average raider gonna want to join"
    The real answer would actually be a question, what was the average player doing in the hardcore guild in the first place?
    You don't join the National Orange Juice Association if you are more of an Apple Juice guy.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post

    I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.

    .
    oh yes but this is truth ofc and ur are 100 % right - now heres come the thing - i have yet too see a team and i havent seen one in 9 years of playing where people gets rotated equally - there is always this tank who always have to be there there are ususally 2 healers without whom progress isnt possible and there comes this awkward moment when u ask - ok so who want to sit out so that player X can come in - then players Y,Z,A come out with "i have no problem to sit out" -= but they are ususally those high on dps or best healers whom u simply cant sit out if u want to progress and then in the end this rotation eveyrone tlaks about in 10 man is rotation of few of the lower end dps and they got rotated literaly all the time - which bring frustration and they finally step out with " why the hell im being rotated all the time when players Y,Z,A are never touched and they are on all kills even thought they dont need any gear from it " and it usully leads to "screw this /gquit" or u hear from bench "why u keep rotating me when there are people who never sit out "- then those who never sit out sometime man up and tell ok take him im sitting up - they take player from bench but since he hasnt spend so much time as others with team he isnt on the same harmony/synergy lv and end up stoping and sometime delaying progress which leads to slowing down progress and frustration of whole team - now who would u rater loose weak dps from bench or your best dpses ?

    i am well avere that this problem doesnt exist in guilds which are 13/13 HC atm - but in guilds which are normal mode raiding guild i have this shit soo many time its hard to count -_- this is why keeping too larger rooster is simply impossible in 10 man normal raiding unless ur mega lucky -_-

  20. #700
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.
    What? If people don't have the skill and won't acquire the skill, then to be perfectly honest they don't BELONG in Normal modes. Sad, but true. Of course now these people will have an option in Flex hopefully so they aren't completely shut out. Sorry but there has to be a line drawn at some point; I'm against super challenging Normal modes that only those going into heroics will clear, but I don't want unskilled DPS who not only don't know what to do but refuse to improve in my raids either. There has to be SOME kind of benchmark of "You are ready for X content at Y level". I can accept that there are people who just aren't quite as skilled, for whatever reason, and even when they try their best their best falls short. However, I cannot accept that these kinds of people have a place at all levels of the game. They can run LFR, crappy as it is, and starting next week they can run Flex. Hopefully they can learn to improve. But they don't have a place in Normal or especially Heroic raids; they used to be able to be carried in Normal and I miss the fact that can't be done, but it can't be done anymore, and these people have to accept that there is SOME competency required.

    In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.
    Let me make sure I understand this, just so we are on the same page. You are basically saying that in a world with Flex raiding, anyone on standby/rotation will probably leave and go join a Flex guild because there is by definition no standby/rotating in Flex? I'm not sure I agree, although I can see this happening in many situations. The fact of the matter is that Flex appeals to a large crowd of players, but not to all players. I certainly agree that a guild that can do Normal but has no desire/chance to raid Heroic probably WILL experience this, and that's fine if you ask me as you can treat Normal as if it was heroic, and Flex as if it was normal with the added bonus of being able to bring everyone available. You take an iLevel hit but if you get into the mentality that Flex IS Normal, then Normal is more tempting because it's as though it was Heroic without the Heroic tag on the drops.

    You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.
    On the contrary, I think Firefly's viewpoint does matter a lot even in a Flexi world, but not the kind of guild that you are talking about. Now I don't know anything about you beyond your posts here. I don't know your progress, I don't know how you found T15 and T14 but I'm assuming fairly hard like I did, given your posts on the subject. A "Flexi World" isn't going to suddenly make every normal guild drop down to Flex guilds, and I don't know why you would think that would be the case. I've previously said that I can certainly see that the 10-man raid scene is going to have a schism and break into two "castes" if you will:

    1) The "Flex" caste that primarily runs Flex mode so they can bring everyone, and dabbles around not quite as seriously in Normal mode
    2) The "Heroic" caste that clears Normal in a couple of weeks max and starts to work on Heroics ASAP

    Firefly is in Caste #2 (I'm not even sure if he's a 10-man raider though, so let's say that if he was 10-man he would be in Caste #2). You (and others with similar views like Osmeric and Glorious Leader) are in Caste #1. Me personally I have no idea because my guild would probably be Caste #1 but I would prefer to be Caste #2, but that's not relevant to the discussion. Pretty much any guild that didn't clear ToT on normal let's say no more than a month after launch would be in Caste #1 because frankly Caste #1 would appeal a lot more to those guilds.

    The presence of Flex doesn't immediately invalidate the kind of guild that would be long to Caste #2, it just makes them a little more rare instead of trying to push all 10N guilds into Caste #2.

    it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

    Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

    Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?
    As an "average player who just wants to raid a bit" the second, of course. But your example is skewed because the GM in the first example has the wrong expectations. The way you worded it indicates that it's really a Caste #1 guild as explained above, and not Caste #2. A guild like that shouldn't be having that sort of attitude, because that WILL annoy people. The only guild that should be doing what that first example is doing is a guild that is going to be pushing into heroic mode fairly soon (because when you are pushing heroics soon, you attempt/down a heroic boss and then usually swap back to normal at some point to finish clearing), and so their raiders would already know that being rotated in/out does happen, so that situation wouldn't happen at all. What you have illustrated is that GMs/Officers who don't know what the actual capabilities of their guild are, and just try to blindly follow what the "hardcore" guilds do thinking it will solve all their problems, and then wondering why they have standby people leave; here's a hint: Because your guild isn't the type of guild that should be putting people on standby, it's the type of guild that should be focusing on Flex and Normal is a bonus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    oh yes but this is truth ofc and ur are 100 % right - now heres come the thing - i have yet too see a team and i havent seen one in 9 years of playing where people gets rotated equally - there is always this tank who always have to be there there are ususally 2 healers without whom progress isnt possible and there comes this awkward moment when u ask - ok so who want to sit out so that player X can come in - then players Y,Z,A come out with "i have no problem to sit out" -= but they are ususally those high on dps or best healers whom u simply cant sit out if u want to progress and then in the end this rotation eveyrone tlaks about in 10 man is rotation of few of the lower end dps and they got rotated literaly all the time - which bring frustration and they finally step out with " why the hell im being rotated all the time when players Y,Z,A are never touched and they are on all kills even thought they dont need any gear from it " and it usully leads to "screw this /gquit" or u hear from bench "why u keep rotating me when there are people who never sit out "- then those who never sit out sometime man up and tell ok take him im sitting up - they take player from bench but since he hasnt spend so much time as others with team he isnt on the same harmony/synergy lv and end up stoping and sometime delaying progress which leads to slowing down progress and frustration of whole team - now who would u rater loose weak dps from bench or your best dpses ?
    Now this I agree with. Usually being rotated out only applies to the DPS, because you nearly always have tanks/healers that form your "core" (hell in my guild both tanks and 2/3 of the healers are officers), so I can see how it's not exactly fair if you're on the DPS end and asked to sit occasionally but your tanks and healers get to be in every fight all the time. Of course there's also a lot more pressure and responsibility on that end.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-07 at 12:07 PM.
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