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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    For all I care they could name Heroics "lolfuckingeasymode" and keep the difficulty and I wouldn't care in the slightest. The point though is that whatever you and I may think, it's still up to them to do something like this and they are probably thinking along the lines I did in the previous posts. Also keep in mind that a word only has as much meaning as the community gives to it. If normals are massively overtuned, the whole community will know the standard is pretty high.



    How isn't it? Should less effort provide with the same rewards? It doesn't work like that basically anywhere.



    And they unsubscribe after one month when they're done with everything. Keep in mind content has to be paid for, you can't afford having people subscribe one month, it probably doesn't cover the development costs. And, how does the fact that it's available in four difficulties affect you if you're such time-bound that you can only run one anyways, since you seem to be complaining a lot about time spent while raiding?



    How is it meaningless? Please elaborate.



    I'm finding average queues on my DPS characters to be about 20 minutes. Unless you're queueing on weird times such as Saturday evenings or late-night (and if you're a casual I could see you going out or sleeping at those hours) I really can't see where you're coming from with one hour queues. And keep in mind this is also the end of the tier, when people got pretty much fed up with the content already.
    The community rarely acts as a whole. While in fact normals are massively overtuned you hear quite a small vocal subset who insist everything is fine and people just suck. I'm glad you wouldn't care, your still not providing an argument for why the name shouldn't be changed just that it's meaningless. Well if it's so meaningless then the name can be changed with no problem. Now obviously it's not meaningless to everyone so the change will be made with some teeth gnashing because ultimately the naming conventions DO MATTER, it's why they exist.

    In the first place people aren't interested in how it works "anywhere", in fact they play Warcraft primarily to escape "anywhere" (i.e the real world). To expect them to also have to come home and find out their escape is now another job is pretty lame way to spend 15 bucks a month. Secondly nobody is actually providing less effort. The guy who can only play 2 hours a week is providing a tremendous amount of effort FOR HIM. Once again that's relative to. However he gets the SHAFT this expansion because some of you can play for so much longer and put in so much more "effort". Finally less effort ought to reward more than it currently does even if it doesn't reward everything it ought to give out alot more.

    No they don't unsubscribe after one month because for many of those casual players one month isn't enough to get any real progress anyway it certainly wasn't in cataclysm but definitely isn't in mists. In fact it's so bad now that you get far less for your time invested then you did since basically tbc. For a casual player the time you can spend in game is worth alot less then it was in Cataclysm. The people who don unsubscribe are basically the people who play 20+ hours anyway and those folks well you can't keep them. The game cannot be sustained on their backs and you can't sate their playstyle anyway. The developers tried this expansion and well people still unsub around patches.

    The 4 difficulties argument is a different story altogether. It's another facet of this incredibly poor design. The poor design that leaves NO alternative (for casual or hardcore) player that isn't raiding. For hardcores this is piss poor because well I mean your gonna do the raid on normal, having to do the EXACT SAME RAID as catch up is fucking terrible. For casuals well raiding as a whole even lfr is just terrible. Basically it's an economic concern that has been forced upon the player base. In cataclysm people were foresaking raiding and even the world so that just can't happen. People just have to be FORCED to get the most use out of the content the fun behind it not mattering one bit.

    The name and the genre are meaningless in so far as people playing by and large are concerned. They are not consciously aware of the fact that they are playing an mmo when they are playing it nor when they buy it. I know of almost no one who picks up the box and instead of looking at the cool dragon or elf or whatever looks ferociously for the genre and says oh good mmo phew for a second I was worried one of the Os was missing. The name is meaningless in the same way you think the word NORMAL is just a perception. It's simple a convention that can be ignored.

    I'm glad you get good ques. That's not a universal situation by any means not does it mean the runs will necesarilly go fast or be rewarding. The experience is probably the opposite. Lots of time spent for little gain, the exact opposite of cataclysm and very uncasual friendly. Very un player friendly really.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdooper View Post
    I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?
    This is one of the major reasons I quit playing the game. Not because there were options and I felt a need/requirement to do them, but because with the introduction of multi-difficulty raiding content came the removal of variety of raiding content.

    Let me explain briefly - in BC/Vanilla you had your 25/40-man "hard core" raids with BT, SSC, MC, etc... but you also had your smaller raids - Karazhan, ZG, ZA, Gruul, Mag; Instead of my alts playing through the same content as my main I was given the opportunity of doing lower content to progress through.

    Once WOTLK hit I found myself doing the same instances (via 10man content) on both characters - this trend never stopped.

    Now, if the game still introduced those 10mans (ZA/ZG/Karazhan) for variety along with multiple modes - I'd be fine with it, but it doesn't. I really hope this changes in the future.

  3. #743
    High Overlord tussee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The point is in that those games gaming modes are mutually exclusive. Playing an FPS game on hard means you don't gain anything by repeating it over and over again on medium as well. Raiding on lfr/flex does give a pretty substantial boost early on in the tier due to tier bonuses and overpowered trinkets (as an example, the CD-reduction agility trinket lfr version is +25k dps for combat over a 549 badjuju/renataki)
    So you don't want people with less time on their hands to play the game?
    You want it all for yourself right?

    WoW may not be the game for you.

    If LFR/flex/Heroic wasn't there ane we went back to vanilla style, you wouldn't be able to get two chances at the Tier and Trinkets.
    Luckily for you they are here.

    You have two shots at the better gear.
    I only have one (As I don't have the time/can't plan ahead when to raid) Which is LFR.
    I even have to wait a week after you had one reset.

    [sarcasm]That's not fair. Remove Heroic, Normal and Flex[/sarcasm]
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  4. #744
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Two questions:

    1) Why can't you consider Flex to be Normal and Normal to be heroic? Because it won't be the official designation and therefor others won't agree?

    2) Be honest with yourself here, what makes you think that Normal ins't normal? Because the majority (?) of guilds can't do it? Couldn't that mean that the majority of guilds AREN'T normal? Note that "normal" doesn't mean the same thing as "average" although the two tend to be close. Something can be normal without the majority doing it. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate since I tend to normally agree with you at least at the basic level, but this constant "Normal isn't normal because the average guilds can't do it" is a fallacy if I ever saw one. Most guilds aren't normal, they're BAD. And yes I would lump my own guild in that category.

    How is it "high horse BS" to expect some level of competency and skill in order to raid, ESPECIALLY when there are multiple difficulties? A DPS that won't improve and performs subpar doesn't belong in normal mode raids, and that's not being an elitist or anything that's the truth because there has to be SOME baseline assumption. You can think of it like organized sports: Normal is Minor League Baseball, Heroic is Major League Baseball, and Flex is the social league with friends that actually has some kind of team rankings (say a work league) and LFR is like a group playing a kinda sorta version of softball amongst themselves without really caring about how well anyone plays because it's all in good fun (maybe a good analogy would be a group of kids on the playground, where you aren't being competitive just having fun, with "that one kid" saying how great he is because he was Little League champion and you all suck at the game etc.)
    1) It obviously has more presence and bearing and yes gravitas if the developers call it like it is instead of living in denial.

    2) Well no that would mean YOU (and I ) aren't normal. If everyone or near everyone is bad then bad really is the new normal. Congratulations you are an exceptional player. I mean I cleared tot on Normal but I did it after the nerfs and a couple months into the tier already. does that make me normal? If it really is about a standard and not relative to everyone else in the game then the standard itself (and the people who set it) are gaming snobs with unrealistic expectations because you CANNOT separate the standard from the people it applies to. Ultimately everyone will view it and say well your normal or your not.

    Normal is not minor league baseball. It would better to be said that normal is your semi organized beer league and elite or whatever comes after normal is minor league softball and heroic is the major leagues. I mean it is really high minded BS because ultimately it's just basically game snobbery. Everyone is "bad" (although if everyone is bad then bad is the new normal) and the rest of us are normal and above normal while all those bads (who are once again seemingly a HUGE majority of the player base) are just what filth? bads? Like the very idea that you want to create or accept a standard that sets you SOOOOO FAR APART from what everybody else in the game is either capable or wiling to accomplish doesn't suggest even just a mild form of elitism to you? I'm not using that in a pejorative sense either btw it's just that the scale is so obviously out of whack. The standard for normal ought to have some bearing relative to the population as a whole otherwise it ultimately ceases to become relevant and really is just snobbery at that point. From a business perspective this is an even more obvious desideratum. If everyone is bad as you say or most players are bad as you say and telling almost all of them that normal isn't for them well then even on a subconscious level it will only work to undermine their ego gratification. Ultimately it will undermine their willingness to stay with the game.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:07 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The community rarely acts as a whole. While in fact normals are massively overtuned you hear quite a small vocal subset who insist everything is fine and people just suck. I'm glad you wouldn't care, your still not providing an argument for why the name shouldn't be changed just that it's meaningless. Well if it's so meaningless then the name can be changed with no problem. Now obviously it's not meaningless to everyone so the change will be made with some teeth gnashing because ultimately the naming conventions DO MATTER, it's why they exist.
    Because the difficulty of 25man normals hasn't changed, and that of 10man normals has been brought up to 25man normals of wrath. Since that's when the term has been coined, and the difficulty hsan't changed, it's still relevant. If you feel they're harder, you either did content after it was nerfed, overgearing it, or on the old 10mans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In the first place people aren't interested in how it works "anywhere", in fact they play Warcraft primarily to escape "anywhere" (i.e the real world). To expect them to also have to come home and find out their escape is now another job is pretty lame way to spend 15 bucks a month. Secondly nobody is actually providing less effort. The guy who can only play 2 hours a week is providing a tremendous amount of effort FOR HIM. Once again that's relative to. However he gets the SHAFT this expansion because some of you can play for so much longer and put in so much more "effort". Finally less effort ought to reward more than it currently does even if it doesn't reward everything it ought to give out alot more.
    It's not a job, it's meant to be a game. Is progressing (although not as fast as heroic raiders) your character not fun to you? The game isn't meant for you. If you're replying to me with "why do you care casuals get that", I'll reply you "why do you care if your progression isn't as powerful given it's still progression"? You're still comparing to other people, just in the opposite way.
    Also, I see 2 hours a week as a pretty extreme time schedule. Most people consider casuals people that play half a hour to a hour per day, on a not consistent schedule. And if you see 2 hours as a fine schedule, Heroic Scenarios are aimed just at that. It's not like you were going to do more than one dungeon per day on that schedule anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No they don't unsubscribe after one month because for many of those casual players one month isn't enough to get any real progress anyway it certainly wasn't in cataclysm but definitely isn't in mists. In fact it's so bad now that you get far less for your time invested then you did since basically tbc. For a casual player the time you can spend in game is worth alot less then it was in Cataclysm. The people who don unsubscribe are basically the people who play 20+ hours anyway and those folks well you can't keep them. The game cannot be sustained on their backs and you can't sate their playstyle anyway. The developers tried this expansion and well people still unsub around patches.
    Of course it was in Cataclysm if you exclude raiding. Heck, a random heroic took 10 minutes queue + 20 minutes for the actual dungeon (one per day as a casual), and in 30 runs you were pretty much decked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The 4 difficulties argument is a different story altogether. It's another facet of this incredibly poor design. The poor design that leaves NO alternative (for casual or hardcore) player that isn't raiding. For hardcores this is piss poor because well I mean your gonna do the raid on normal, having to do the EXACT SAME RAID as catch up is fucking terrible. For casuals well raiding as a whole even lfr is just terrible. Basically it's an economic concern that has been forced upon the player base. In cataclysm people were foresaking raiding and even the world so that just can't happen. People just have to be FORCED to get the most use out of the content the fun behind it not mattering one bit.
    Running the previous raid then, nobody is forcing you into LFR. Don't have time to raid? You won't experience the content twice because you won't be raiding the new content either. People were avoiding raiding because those which didn't have a strict time schedule couldn't constantly attend them. Dragon Soul saw a MASSIVE increase in raid partecipation due to the introduction of LFR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The name and the genre are meaningless in so far as people playing by and large are concerned. They are not consciously aware of the fact that they are playing an mmo when they are playing it nor when they buy it. I know of almost no one who picks up the box and instead of looking at the cool dragon or elf or whatever looks ferociously for the genre and says oh good mmo phew for a second I was worried one of the Os was missing. The name is meaningless in the same way you think the word NORMAL is just a perception. It's simple a convention that can be ignored.
    What's World of Warcraft? Official Battle.net. Of course they know, unless they randomly buy games without informing themselves. The difference between the words normal and massive multiplayer online is that one is a qualitative adjective meaning you can interpret it in various ways, while the second one is an exact definition. When you start going out of the subjective area and go into the objective area those conventions do serve a purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm glad you get good ques. That's not a universal situation by any means not does it mean the runs will necesarilly go fast or be rewarding. The experience is probably the opposite. Lots of time spent for little gain, the exact opposite of cataclysm and very uncasual friendly. Very un player friendly really.
    Queues are battlegroup related. If you're getting bad queues, I'd blame it on the battlegroups population (which I do see as a problem, mind you) and not on the system using the queue itself. And we have always been there about providing time efficient rewards not being lucrative for developers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tussee View Post
    So you don't want people with less time on their hands to play the game?
    You want it all for yourself right?

    WoW may not be the game for you.

    If LFR/flex/Heroic wasn't there ane we went back to vanilla style, you wouldn't be able to get two chances at the Tier and Trinkets.
    Luckily for you they are here.

    You have two shots at the better gear.
    I only have one (As I don't have the time/can't plan ahead when to raid) Which is LFR.
    I even have to wait a week after you had one reset.

    [sarcasm]That's not fair. Remove Heroic, Normal and Flex[/sarcasm]
    Sharing a lockout would be a fine solution for me. Everyone gets their content, everyone's happy. I never said developers shouldn't have introduced flex or lfr and if you think otherwise I'd like you to quote me on that.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 11:12 PM.
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  6. #746
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    What you keep missing is that people want to raid. No one *wants* to sit. It's not that people who don't like to sit want to have the raid called vs rotating, but they would prefer to raid vs sit (what raider wouldn't?).

    Up to now, that option simply has not been there. But now, that option is available. Normal mode guilds do not any longer have to rotate people in and out, they can choose to raid Flex. If someone would rather raid than sit (and again, who wouldn't?) they can continue to rotate in and out or they can a) get their normal mode raid to go flex or b) they can leave and join a flex raid. I'd argue that, since Flex and Normal don't share lockouts, that they can raid Flex even outside of the guild and then rotate into their normal mode raid too, but for some people that ends up being too many nights of raiding.

    Now, a heroic guild won't move from heroic to flex just to avoid rotating because their mindset is to progress against the highest challenge. Everyone who joins a heroic raiding guild buys into this... they still would all prefer to raid, but they realize that it might be best to rotate people based on the needs of a given fight or to make sure everyone is geared. But normal mode guilds don't raid for the same reasons. Progression isn't as important to most of them, especially the ones who barely clear a tier while it's current (or who don't clear it). I don't mean that they don't want to kill things... but it's not as important as it is to heroic guilds.

    So, say you're a normal mode guild. You're in the middle of the pack of those guilds... you might have cleared ToT, perhaps you didn't even do that. You've been rotating people, etc. You have 12-17 people... someone asks "Hey, instead of having people sit, why don't we just raid flex in 5.4?" For a heroic guild the reason is easy - 'we want to raid at the highest level possible... that's the reason we exist.' For the normal mode guild I just described... the reason not to move to flex is a lot less obvious.

    One final point - some social, normal mode guilds can end up with 15-18 people who'd like to raid. It's WAY harder to rotate those into one 10 man raid. If you're at 18 you can recruit and get 2 10s going... but you really need another 6 people, not another 2 so you again have backups. If you're at 14-16 it's harder... you need almost another 8-10 people to make a viable second 10 man raid, but you have far too many to easily rotate. Flex also solves this quite neatly... instead of having to recruit people, deal with the drama of two 10 mans ("Why am I not on the better 10 man?") etc... just take your 14, 16 or 18 person raid into Flex. FAR easier, especially for the RLs and others who have to deal with all of this.

    PS: The thread on the official forums about delaying LFR was a bit silly but Bashiok did his normal bullshit and completely ignored the subtopic in there about Flex. Delaying LFR makes sense. Gating Flex even makes sense... but gating Flex so that the last two wings are released every 2 weeks vs every week does not make sense. They should just release a wing of flex every week from the first week so that it's completely out by the 4th week.

    I actually do get what you're saying, or part of it. I get that people would rather raid than sit for obvious reasons, we all want to raid (unless it's boring farm bosses we don't need loot from). What I'm trying to wrap my head around, is whether or not some of the Normal mode guilds with a roster too large for a 10 man group i.e 15-17 people but too small for a 25 man or 2x 10 man groups, will give up the hopes of progressing in Normal all together.

    I don't have the answer and I don't have the experience with these sorts of guilds. I did have a friend who was the GM of a very casual guild and I helped them during DS on an alt. He had to disband the guild, cause he couldn't get people to sign/show up for raids and he couldn't recruit either. For a guild like his, I suspect that going Flex and then just pug, would have been the obvious choice, had Flex existed back then.

    But I'm a bit baffled that you (and others to a much larger extend) believe that Flex will more or less be the end of 10 man Normal guilds. Cause even if you don't have the time, skill or desire to progress beyond Normal modes, would those players not have any goals other than "raiding" and getting loot? I mean, don't some 10 man Normal guilds want to improve, want to try to clear the content while it's current, want the rewards for doing something that's harder than Flex and LFR?

    OT: The reason behind Flex being even more gated, they actually also discussed in Legendary and I have to agree with them. If you don't hold off some of the easier content, those who have no intentions of progressing beyond Flex will have cleared "their" content after a few weeks and then what? Also, as the Legendary crew mentioned (Bashiok has mentioned it as well), it's not really cool that the biggest bad ass boss in the Tier falls over after 4 weeks. That was OT anyways.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-09-07 at 11:16 PM.

  7. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Because the difficulty of 25man normals hasn't changed, and that of 10man normals has been brought up to 25man normals of wrath. Since that's when the term has been coined, and the difficulty hsan't changed, it's still relevant. If you feel they're harder, you either did content after it was nerfed, overgearing it, or on the old 10mans.



    It's not a job, it's meant to be a game. Is progressing (although not as fast as heroic raiders) your character not fun to you? The game isn't meant for you. If you're replying to me with "why do you care casuals get that", I'll reply you "why do you care if your progression isn't as powerful given it's still progression"? You're still comparing to other people, just in the opposite way.
    Also, I see 2 hours a week as a pretty extreme time schedule. Most people consider casuals people that play half a hour to a hour per day, on a not consistent schedule. And if you see 2 hours as a fine schedule, Heroic Scenarios are aimed just at that. It's not like you were going to do more than one dungeon per day on that schedule anyways.



    Of course it was in Cataclysm if you exclude raiding. Heck, a random heroic took 10 minutes queue + 20 minutes for the actual dungeon (one per day as a casual), and in 30 runs you were pretty much decked out.



    Running the previous raid then, nobody is forcing you into LFR. Don't have time to raid? You won't experience the content twice because you won't be raiding the new content either. People were avoiding raiding because those which didn't have a strict time schedule couldn't constantly attend them. Dragon Soul saw a MASSIVE increase in raid partecipation due to the introduction of LFR.



    What's World of Warcraft? Official Battle.net. Of course they know, unless they randomly buy games without informing themselves. The difference between the words normal and massive multiplayer online is that one is a qualitative adjective meaning you can interpret it in various ways, while the second one is an exact definition. When you start going out of the subjective area and go into the objective area those conventions do serve a purpose.



    Queues are battlegroup related. If you're getting bad queues, I'd blame it on the battlegroups population (which I do see as a problem, mind you) and not on the system using the queue itself. And we have always been there about providing time efficient rewards not being lucrative for developers.
    Actually the difficulty has changed even for 25 mans (they are far more complex then they were in bc or in wrath) but even if not you said it yourself the 10 man difficulty has changed soooooooo normals are not the normals they were in the past. The difficulty has changed, even if it's just because their characters are so much more complicated to play now, the name ought to change with it.

    Because it's obviously all relative. If it were entirely a single player game it might not matter but for you who has everything it really ought not to matter what the lowly casual plebian scrub gets and in all honesty from the developers standpoint it ought to matter what the casual gets seeing as how their are far more of him then you. 2 hours a week is fairly casual. Heroic scenarios award jack shit unfortunately. That same two hours a week in cataclysm garnered me much more.

    No it wasn't. For casual players cataclysm was perfect, it was not fit for people riding ont he back fo the casual wave though. Look at it this way if you play 20+ hours and have like 6 or 7 alts that's probably about right for where a casual player will get in terms of pacing. It means you devored content but your playstyle isn't sustainable anyway not without loosing millions more players in the process at any rate. The developers have become increasingly conservative in this regard and you may very well get that. We'll see.


    Of course Dragon Soul saw a massive increase in raid participation. You could que for it. Were you expecting it wouldn't? Especially since they put tier pieces and tonnes of other gear EXPLICITLY behind lfr. This was exacerbated in mists and yea of course when you shove all the reward behidn something people are gonna do that one thing. Like the developers claimed people were doing with dungeons. Just that it was effecient but not fun. Well LFR is effecient is it fun? Why would I run the previous raid? effecient but not fun remember? It would be nice if the stuff outside of the raid was almost or as effecient as the raid as well that way I really could have diversity of content, not just lip service.

    People do buy games without informing themselves all the time. But even if they look at the web page do you think the first thing they see is MMORPG? Do you think while their killing some mob or casting some spell they are consciously and actively aware it's an mmorpg? do you think they care? it matters that much to people? I tend to doubt it. That's why the label is meaningless ultimately.

    Bad ques are bad ques period. Sitting around waiting an hour to que is not casual friendly. spending 3 hours to clear an lfr is not casual friendly.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:44 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually the difficulty has changed even for 25 mans (they are far more complex then they were in bc or in wrath) but even if not you said it yourself the 10 man difficulty has changed soooooooo normals are not the normals they were in the past. The difficulty has changed, the name ought to change with it.
    BC had one difficulty so that doesn't matter to define what normals were in the past, the term was coined in wrath (ulduar unofficially and toc officially) and that's the content it should be compared to. If you did the content while overgearing/it was nerfed I'm kinda sure you feel the difference, but it was pretty much the same while undergeared/properly geared and unnerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because it's obviously all relative. If it were entirely a single player game it might not matter but for you who has everything it really ought not to matter what the lowly casual plebian scrub gets and in all honesty from the developers standpoint it ought to matter what the casual gets seeing as how their are far more of him then you. 2 hours a week is fairly casual. Heroic scenarios award jack shit unfortunately. That same two hours a week in cataclysm garnered me much more.
    How so? The acquisition rate is diminished (and not by much if we're talking two hours a week) but the gear is greatly improved (516, or almost normal current tier, againist normal previous tier). The two balance out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it wasn't. For casual players cataclysm was perfect, it was not fit for people riding ont he back fo the casual wave though. Look at it this way if you play 20+ hours and have like 6 or 7 alts that's probably about right for where a casual player will get in terms of pacing. It means you devored content but your playstyle isn't sustainable anyway not without loosing millions more players in the process at any rate. The developers have become increasingly conservative in this regard and you may very well get that. We'll see.
    One dungeon per day, averagely one drop every two dungeons (with early ones giving more as you miss everything and later ones the opposite). Sounds pretty fair to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Of course Dragon Soul saw a massive increase in raid participation. You could que for it. Were you expecting it wouldn't? Especially since they put tier pieces and tonnes of other gear EXPLICITLY behind lfr. This was exacerbated in mists and yea of course when you shove all the reward behidn something people are gonna do that one thing. Like the developers claimed people were doing with dungeons. Just that it was effecient but not fun. Well LFR is effecient is it fun? Why would I run the previous raid? effecient but not fun remember? It would be nice if the stuff outside of the raid was almost or as effecient as the raid as well that way I really could have diversity of content, not just lip service.
    Why isn't raiding previous content fun? (as in normals of the previous content) Is it because they're previous content? They're still content you haven't seen so I don't get the issue. As for LFR not being enjoyable, I agree but that's an LFR problem and not a raiding model problem, quite a substantial difference once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    People do buy games without informing themselves all the time. But even if they look at the web page do you think the first thing they see is MMORPG? Do you think while their killing some mob or casting some spell they are consciously and actively aware it's an mmorpg? do you think they care? it matters that much to people? I tend to doubt it. That's why the label is meaningless ultimately.
    As a developer I'd rather design my game about people who make an informed decision because they're the ones most likely to stick with the game in the first place. And knowing and constantly thinking about it are two different things. Heck, you can do a lot of things solo actually, just don't expect to do high end stuff because that means you're invested in the game and therefore should be invested in its genre too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Bad ques are bad ques period. Sitting around waiting an hour to que is not casual friendly. spending 3 hours to clear an lfr is not casual friendly.
    Again, I said it's not an LFR system problem but a battlegroup population problem. I agree, it's a problem, but you're saying LFR is the cause while it's not, it's the population and the way the queue system works.

    Heck, I'm playing an online pool game at the moment. Should I complain that I'm getting beaten because I don't play it a lot and therefore it isn't casual friendly? If not, where do you draw the line?
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 11:49 PM.
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  9. #749
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    BC had one difficulty so that doesn't matter to define what normals were in the past, the term was coined in wrath (ulduar unofficially and toc officially) and that's the content it should be compared to. If you did the content while overgearing/it was nerfed I'm kinda sure you feel the difference, but it was pretty much the same while undergeared/properly geared and unnerfed.



    How so? The acquisition rate is diminished (and not by much if we're talking two hours a week) but the gear is greatly improved (516, or almost normal current tier, againist normal previous tier). The two balance out.



    One dungeon per day, averagely one drop every two dungeons (with early ones giving more as you miss everything and later ones the opposite). Sounds pretty fair to me.



    Why isn't raiding previous content fun? (as in normals of the previous content) Is it because they're previous content? They're still content you haven't seen so I don't get the issue. As for LFR not being enjoyable, I agree but that's an LFR problem and not a raiding model problem, quite a substantial difference once again.



    As a developer I'd rather design my game about people who make an informed decision because they're the ones most likely to stick with the game in the first place. And knowing and constantly thinking about it are two different things. Heck, you can do a lot of things solo actually, just don't expect to do high end stuff because that means you're invested in the game and therefore should be invested in its genre too.



    Again, I said it's not an LFR system problem but a battlegroup population problem. I agree, it's a problem, but you're saying LFR is the cause while it's not, it's the population and the way the queue system works.
    Even in 25 man they have increased in complexity even since wrath days. Like I said even if it's just from the fact that playing your character is more challenging then it was before the difficulty bar has been raised across the board since wrath or tbc or whenever. The name ought to change to reflect that. Congratulations you are pro.

    In some theoretical mathematical model I'm sure it does balance. In the real world it doesn't. The rate of acquisition is so piss poor and the gear itself is also often piss poor (helms with no meta sockets LAWL) that on no level is it equal to the reward rate you'd get out of say 4.3 heroics.

    You forget the valor from that dungeon as well. The valor from that dungeon payed out in alot more and the aquisition rate has declined, hell you can't even get gear for it next patch NEVER MIND the justice points. It's slower much slower than it was in cataclysm and you can sit here in wilful denial about it or you can acknowledge it as the developers do. If it was actually as good as it was in cataclysm, say they made heroic scenarios REALLY pay out guess what behaviour would come back that the developers were trying to avoid? So no they can't pay out otherwise people would skip raiding especially these difficult bloated complicated bullshit bosses.

    It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. According to the developers people will do something that mores effecient over something they decrie is fun. So they won't be going back to do older tiers and instead will do lfr. I'm not going back to do an older tier for shittier loot that'll just take longer. I also don't want to have to stomach the same god damn raid over and over again. I'd like an alternative that pays out as good as raiding, hell I'd take justice points that gave out last tiers gear. LFR not being enjoyable is exactly part of the raid model problem. You can't have raids without LFR anymore. If you want the raid model of end game progression to exist (especially with raids as big as ToT) then you are asking for lfr to exist. Sorry.

    As a developer your primary goal is to entertain people in the hope they will continue to subscribe to your game and keep your pay cheque coming in. The genre is meaningless.

    Bad ques are bad ques and it's an lfr problem. I had very good ques on the same server for dungeons. I never had an hour que for a dungeon in fact running on multiple servers I can tell you that LFR TAKES MUCH LONGER TO QUE FOR. I'm not saying LFR is the cause of long ques, I'm saying long ques are often a charichteristic of LFR making them not very casual friendly. You can blame the que system all day it doesn't matter. I got faster ques with dungeons then I did with lfr and dungeons payed out better. They were more casual friendly. Raiding in ANY FORM is far to time consuming and far to demanding to be casual friendly. Sorry. They've tried to dress that pig up as much as they could for casuals and it isn't fooling anybody.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:59 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As a developer your primary goal is to entertain people in the hope they will continue to subscribe to your game and keep your pay cheque coming in. The genre is meaningless.
    http://zynga.com/

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  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Even in 25 man they have increased in complexity even since wrath days. Like I said even if it's just from the fact that playing your character is more challenging then it was before the difficulty bar has been raised across the board since wrath or tbc or whenever. The name ought to change to reflect that. Congratulations you are pro.
    No, the complexity hasn't changed a great deal on normal encounters unless you were ignoring mechanics because you severely outgeared them. Heck, the complexity of specs has been removed for the most part. Wrath feral and enhancement are still today two of the hardest to play specs of all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In some theoretical mathematical model I'm sure it does balance. In the real world it doesn't. The rate of acquisition is so piss poor and the gear itself is also often piss poor (helms with no meta sockets LAWL) that on no level is it equal to the reward rate you'd get out of say 4.3 heroics.
    There's no way you can apply statistics to an individual's experience. There is no way in the world you can make sure all people are exactly within the target percentage, because that's not how statistics work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You forget the valor from that dungeon as well. The valor from that dungeon payed out in alot more and the aquisition rate has declined, hell you can't even get gear for it next patch NEVER MIND the justice points. It's slower much slower than it was in cataclysm and you can sit here in wilful denial about it or you can acknowledge it as the developers do. If it was actually as good as it was in cataclysm, say they made heroic scenarios REALLY pay out guess what behaviour would come back that the developers were trying to avoid? So no they can't pay out otherwise people would skip raiding especially these difficult bloated complicated bullshit bosses.
    No I don't. Valors are now used to upgrade stuff, which is still progression, and a meaningful one at that (8% character power out of a full valor upgrade, which costs less than what buying all available pieces did). I agree though, justice points have been made useless and that could do with a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. According to the developers people will do something that mores effecient over something they decrie is fun. So they won't be going back to do older tiers and instead will do lfr. I'm not going back to do an older tier for shittier loot that'll just take longer. I also don't want to have to stomach the same god damn raid over and over again. I'd like an alternative that pays out as good as raiding, hell I'd take justice points that gave out last tiers gear. LFR not being enjoyable is exactly part of the raid model problem. You can't have raids without LFR anymore. If you want the raid model of end game progression to exist (especially with raids as big as ToT) then you are asking for lfr to exist. Sorry.
    You have content outside of raids, but that only gets you up to a certain point. Again, quoting the game guide linked above: "Unlike most games, MMORPGs do not have an offline mode; you need to be connected to the Internet while you play. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy these games alone; World of Warcraft offers plenty of content to players who want to go it solo. But since you share a virtual world with other players, you need to be connected to the Internet to join in the fun. Much of the game’s advanced content is geared towards groups of players working together to explore dangerous dungeons and defeat powerful monsters."

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As a developer your primary goal is to entertain people in the hope they will continue to subscribe to your game and keep your pay cheque coming in. The genre is meaningless.
    People use the genre to browse games they think they will mostly be interested in. Genre does matter because it provides you with connections (through search websites or just word spread) with the people who are actually interested in the game you're developing and mantaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Bad ques are bad ques and it's an lfr problem. I had very good ques on the same server for dungeons. I never had an hour que for a dungeon in fact running on multiple servers I can tell you that LFR TAKES MUCH LONGER TO QUE FOR. I'm not saying LFR is the cause of long ques, I'm saying long ques are often a charichteristic of LFR making them not very casual friendly. You can blame the que system all day it doesn't matter. I got faster ques with dungeons then I did with lfr and dungeons payed out better. They were more casual friendly. Raiding in ANY FORM is far to time consuming and far to demanding to be casual friendly. Sorry. They've tried to dress that pig up as much as they could for casuals and it isn't fooling anybody.
    Indeed, that's in the nature of any system involving more players than another one. What I'm trying to say though is that we have the population to make the queues a non-issue, it just needs to be organized better. And I still stand by my point that if you're so casual that you can't join a LFR you should be comparing heroic dungeons to heroic scenarios.
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  12. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post

    Money talks. Players walk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    No, the complexity hasn't changed a great deal on normal encounters unless you were ignoring mechanics because you severely outgeared them. Heck, the complexity of specs has been removed for the most part. Wrath feral and enhancement are still today two of the hardest to play specs of all times.



    There's no way you can apply statistics to an individual's experience. There is no way in the world you can make sure all people are exactly within the target percentage, because that's not how statistics work.



    No I don't. Valors are now used to upgrade stuff, which is still progression, and a meaningful one at that (8% character power out of a full valor upgrade, which costs less than what buying all available pieces did). I agree though, justice points have been made useless and that could do with a change.



    You have content outside of raids, but that only gets you up to a certain point. Again, quoting the game guide linked above: "Unlike most games, MMORPGs do not have an offline mode; you need to be connected to the Internet while you play. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy these games alone; World of Warcraft offers plenty of content to players who want to go it solo. But since you share a virtual world with other players, you need to be connected to the Internet to join in the fun. Much of the game’s advanced content is geared towards groups of players working together to explore dangerous dungeons and defeat powerful monsters."



    People use the genre to browse games they think they will mostly be interested in. Genre does matter because it provides you with connections (through search websites or just word spread) with the people who are actually interested in the game you're developing and mantaining.



    Indeed, that's in the nature of any system involving more players than another one. What I'm trying to say though is that we have the population to make the queues a non-issue, it just needs to be organized better. And I still stand by my point that if you're so casual that you can't join a LFR you should be comparing heroic dungeons to heroic scenarios.
    The complexity has indeed increased enormously. Where's my patchwerk fight in tot? Hell something like TOC relative to tot is insanely simple by comparison. Point by point the complexity of both playing your character has increased as well as playing the raid itself has also increased. The developers have told us as much why your being willfully ignorant of this I don't know but it's the truth.

    Actually yes you can make it so that people are within the target percentage. You can make character progression deterministic and NOT random.

    Upgrading items is a shadow of progression. It's trading one number in for a number. Trading in for a piece of gear is far more meaningful. Even if its just the simple fact that it gives you a new look (never mind set bonuses or anything). Valor is basically useless this expansion and it wasn't necessary. Hell the vendor is leaving next patch and it's for as far as I can tell NO REASON AT ALL.

    Quoting game guides will not keep people from leaving. Same as obeying genre conventions and labels or traditions. They have no meaning in the face of continued subscriber losses as get this NOBODY GIVES A FLYING SHIT about what you want to call the game. They just want to be entertained. In the same way that you don't care about what they call heroic raids the genre label MMO is absolutely and totally FUCKING MEANINGLESS. RPG has more meaning for people searching through genres and well the game is less RPG than ever. Character progression in RPGS is almost all deterministic. In world of warcraft it's all rng based. Even more so now that they've said no more valor gear fuck you go raid and roll the dice for random shitty gear. In fact if people searched for mmorpg and found out what it meant they'd run screaming and fucking kicking because the conventional mmo rpg was very niche and had very little appeal. Every attempt to make the game closer to mmorpg has had players running away en masse. Moving away from that model gained them success. I see no reason to think moving back to it or obeying this one particular tradition is meaningful or special. they've abandoned so many other tenants that they can get rid of raiding and nobody will give a fuck. Or next to nobody at any rate.

    Okay let's compare scenarios to dungeons. Scenarios pay out in shit gear, don't require healers or tanks, and often times do NOT PAY OUT IN ANYTHING. Their fucking USELESS partially because the content itself doesn't payu out in actual GEAR but also because the reward system outside of them (i.e valor) IS ALSO useless now. Now dungeons particularly 4.3 dungeons payed out in catch up gear and gave you valor TO BUY CURRENT ILVL GEAR. You can't do that next patch, and you can't do that with scenarios. Actually you could do that with scenarios BUT THEN EVERYONE WOULD STOP RAIDING and their you have it. The game does not reward out as well as it did before end of fucking story. It is less casual friendly because of this. Far less. The acquisition pace vis a vi heroics vs scenarios CANNOT be the same as it was in cataclysm otherwise the behavior would return. Players would stop raiding in lieu of gearing around patches instead of bosses. So scenarios pay out far less and far less frequently and with far less impact that dungeons did in cataclysm. They are ultimately LESS casual friendly. If they were as you say "balanced out" then we'd be in cataclysm all over again.

    Raiding is NOT CASUAL FRIENDLY PERIOD. It takes far longer even in lfr to organize 25 people than it does 5 so 5 man dungeon ques are almost always going to be faster. Unless you get lucky and fill in for some last boss slot and then you have the sheer joy of wiping your face off on a boss the lfr raid couldn't kill and then getting back in que again for NO FUCKING LOOT. Dungeons payed out PERIOD. They payed out so well people (some people mind you) were bored but for casuals this was PERFECT.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 12:38 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #753
    Organized guilded raiding is not meant for everyone. To base your assumptions on what is normal based on everyone is silly in that regard. Normal is where the bulk of organized guilded raiders are focused. In the developers attempt to keep PuG raiders out of normal mode raiding for whom it was not intended for and shove them into LFR it came with the side effect of pushing less organized guilds out of normal mode raiding and there are still PuG raiders who are PuGing normal modes because skill and teamwork abilities triumph over an organized guild at normal mode level. In WotLK the developers stated that normal modes was intended for organized guilds despite so many PuGs running it. It has its reasons though because if Blizzard came out saying that normal modes was designed around PuGs then players would have flooded the forums crying for even more nerfs. From personal experience T11 was no harder than T10 prebuff on 25 man and that the first three bosses in T11 was actually easier than the first three in T10 excluding lootship. It was 10 man T11 that tighter tuned and suffered heavily from class balancing which was the reason why 10 man T10 was tuned looser in the first place. This resulted in class swapping in fights and the 10 man guild on my realm to PuG players in order to get a realm first Nef kill on 25 man due to it being far easier than 10 man was. Had groups stayed 25 man at Cata launch then players would have been fine.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Have you ever been part of a normal IRL social group where someone had a friend/husband/brother that couldn't make it because they had a WoW raid? First off, about 90% of the human population doesn't even know what that means, and when it's sheepishly explained to them, it goes over about as well as saying the missing person had to stay home because they were reorganizing their Star Wars toys. It's halfway between that and finding out that they have a harmful drug habit.



    Because having a bunch of raid options spares them the expense of having to make a bunch of additional five-mans the way they did back in WOTLK. The problem is, casuals are leaving because they don't like raids very much, even easy LFR raids. Period. If Blizzard wants to keep them, they're going to have to give them something to do besides stab a dragon in the ankles for an hour. Pet Battles was a good start. A housing system would be an excellent additional step. Anything that runs outside of the usual "new patch, time to either get more gear or maybe quit" cycle.
    Before I rant on, sorry if this is a long answer:

    As to your first comment there about missing stuff in real life for raids, been there done that many times myself, been playing 8yrs+ now too so slightly lost count of times I've taken a guild run over going out :P

    Most of my IRL friends can't stand games, couple of them might play Xbox every now and again, more often then not though they're more into going out, having bbq's and socializing but they don't count me as a pariah, they still invite me a long without feeling the need to look down on me if I decline due to in game commitments, they know I'm a dedicated player when it comes to Warcraft.

    To your other comment though, yes blizz split the difference of time over making new dungeons/heroic 5mans to instead giving us these silly scenario things but it's also about the time restraints some players feel they're up against. The casual players aren't leaving because they don't like to raid, it's more a case of wanting what the long term/harder cored players have i.e end game content and loots etc without having to put in as much time.

    These same casual players (not all casuals btw, I know plenty who are happy doing what they do when they want to in the time they have put aside for playing) haven't experienced Warcraft how it used to be with months of farming away at the same bosses/raids before being able to move up the ladder to the next boss/tier and it's not their fault for that.

    They probably joined somewhere between Wotlk and MoP meaning they joined when the game was already moving towards a more casual friendly attitude but don't understand why the game is still as it is in terms of end game content. It's like a child, they want something and they want it now. There's just no patience in most people nowadays and this is the real problem, patience.

    Hell, even content and expacks are becoming more regular because more people are able to progress through it with the additions of dungeon and raid finder but there will always be those who feel this isn't enough, it'll be the same when flexi launches too, yet another stepping stone to help bridge a gap in the player community but will be seen as useless because the average Joe can't just walk into a heroic run as someone like myself would due to the fact they haven't put the time and effort in to gain the necessary experience and ilvl guilds are putting as requirements in recruiting.

    One thing I want to touch on though but personally I don't feel is an important issue is your mentioning of player housing, who needs it? We got the farms at Halfhill if we want somewhere to literally call our own, if you want to take it that step further, head over to a Role Play server and do something there. If blizzard really does consider going down this route though, I'd like to see guild halls rather then individual domiciles.

    If you want a game that's going nuts on housing, take a look at Wildstar :P

    The fact of the matter is this game has changed since the days of old, whether for good or bad is irrelevant, it's how we as individual players play the game that matters, just because the devs don't change something someone doesn't like, is not enough of a reason for people to quit or demand an instant address on the problem.

    The problem of Casual vs Raider has been a long standing argument and most likely will be until Warcraft winds down to make way for Titan or whichever way blizzard decides to go.

    It's a game people, play it, don't play it, but either way just login to have fun. Don't login with the idea "if I don't get this, that or the other I'm quitting" :/

    That kind of mentality doesn't help you, us or anyone else...

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The complexity has indeed increased enormously. Where's my patchwerk fight in tot? Hell something like TOC relative to tot is insanely simple by comparison. Point by point the complexity of both playing your character has increased as well as playing the raid itself has also increased. The developers have told us as much why your being willfully ignorant of this I don't know but it's the truth.
    Did you miss my part about "only content since when the normal tag was introduced"? I don't recall naxxramas being one of those raid instances. ToC (the other one you cited in your post) had a couple interesting mechanics which were actually pretty new at the time. Debuff clearing via other debuffs (Ascendant council anyone?), mechanics requiring people to be low HP (ra-den vita phase even if everybody skipped that), interacting with environment objects to gain buffs useful for the fight (stone guards in MSV), multiple bosses fight (mel'jarak, councils). You're being simplistic if you say ToC and ICC weren't in-depth raid as far as mechanics were concerned, or just ran them with 232 dungeon gear (ToC) and 20%+ nerf (ICC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually yes you can make it so that people are within the target percentage. You can make character progression deterministic and NOT random.
    Indeed, but you don't want to do without a random factor. First of all, without random as strange as it may sound it feels much more of a grind. Second, if there's an RNG factor you're actually more excited when you get a piece of upgrade compared to a system where you can schedule every single upgrade you're getting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Upgrading items is a shadow of progression. It's trading one number in for a number. Trading in for a piece of gear is far more meaningful. Even if its just the simple fact that it gives you a new look (never mind set bonuses or anything). Valor is basically useless this expansion and it wasn't necessary. Hell the vendor is leaving next patch and it's for as far as I can tell NO REASON AT ALL.
    Because Flex is being introduced, at least that's why I think they did it. And go tell all the guilds (including mine) that tried Lei shen pre and post item upgrades that valors are basically useless and upgrades are only a shadow of progression. 8% character power is an awful lot of a progression. Trading in a piece of gear gives you more consistent, less frequent upgrades. Just like heroic scenarios give less frequent but more consistent gear compared to heroic dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Quoting game guides will not keep people from leaving. Same as obeying genre conventions and labels or traditions. They have no meaning in the face of continued subscriber losses as get this NOBODY GIVES A FLYING SHIT about what you want to call the game. They just want to be entertained. In the same way that you don't care about what they call heroic raids the genre label MMO is absolutely and totally FUCKING MEANINGLESS. RPG has more meaning for people searching through genres and well the game is less RPG than ever. In fact if people searched for mmorpg and found out what it meant they'd run screaming and fucking kicing because the conventional mmo rpg was very niche and had very little appeal. Moving away from that model gained them success. I see no reason to think moving back to it or obeying this one particular tradition is meaningful or special. they've abanoned so many other tenants that they can get rid of raiding and nobody will give a fuck. Or next to nobody at any rate.
    Heck no. Moving away from features that the model expanded upon granted them success. They still mantained the model's core characteristics. You need to get a distinction between the two. You're still playing a character which isn't you but which you're impersonating in an online fantasy world where a lot of people are present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay let's compare scenarios to dungeons. Scenarios pay out in shit gear, don't require healers or tanks, and often times do NOT PAY OUT IN ANYTHING. Their fucking USELESS partially because the content itself doesn't payu out in actual GEAR but also because the reward system outside of them (i.e valor) IS ALSO useless now. Now dungeons particularly 4.3 dungeons payed out in catch up gear and gave you valor TO BUY CURRENT ILVL GEAR. You can't do that next patch, and you can't do that with scenarios. Actually you could do that with scenarios BUT THEN EVERYONE WOULD STOP RAIDING and their you have it. The game does not reward out as well as it did before end of fucking story. It is less casual friendly because of this. Far less.
    Except for helms (major flop, especially since they fixed it for 489 barrens gear but not for hreoic scenarios), how is it shit gear? Please elaborate. And again, valor does pay out. Heroic scenarios + valor = 524 gear, which is above the 522 of normal mode ToT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Raiding is NOT CASUAL FRIENDLY PERIOD. It takes far longer even in lfr to organize 25 people than it does 5 so 5 man dungeon ques are almost always going to be faster. Unless you get lucky and fill in for some last boss slot and then you have the sheer joy of wiping your face off on a boss the lfr raid couldn't kill and then getting back in que again for NO FUCKING LOOT. Dungeons payed out PERIOD. They payed out so well people (some people mind you) were bored but for casuals this was PERFECT.
    Yes, 5 man content dungeon queues are going to be faster, I said that in my post as well. There's however no difference between a one minute queue and a two minutes queue, and they could very well achieve that rate with the amount of players we currently have playing the game. And you're probably mistaking seeing drops for getting drops. In dungeons you're guaranteed to see items dropping, you're not guaranteed for them to drop what you need.
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  16. #756
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    Thumbs up for this suggestion. I like it allot.

    I was never in any top-raiding guild, but I was in an average raiding guild and raided actively for years. Nowadays I no longer play the game though. Why? Certainly wasn't because I couldn't access or see all the content in-game. Blizzard has made that really easy. No, rather I lost interest in the phenomenon that is World of Warcraft. This is because with the content being so accessible I lost interest in following the news of top-guilds as they downed these super iconic characters like Illidan, then waltzed around Orgrimmar with the most unobtainable and insanely looking epics I had ever seen. I would dream that one day I would get to kill that boss, and that I would obtain these epics for my characters. Nowadays I no longer have to dream, I can just go in there and kill an easier version of the boss and get the same epic with some just some worse stats on them. Is this an improvement on the game? Well, I guess it is an improvement on the game, as it gives me content to play that I couldn't have played had it stayed the way it used to be. But is this an improvement on the phenomenon that is World of Warcraft? It's one of these "be careful what you wish for" kind of things really. I did get what I dreamed of, but as I did the magic and feel of this phenomenon was lost, and World of Warcraft became just a game, when it used to be so much more. I lost my interest in the community as I no longer had anything to aspire to. No longer did the greatest players on the realm distinguish themselves by standing around Orgrimmar with gear I would dream to obtain. No longer do top guilds like Nihilium spend days and nights wiping to kill the latest iconic end boss, now they are killed instantly in "normal" mode and the epic gear they drop is obtained although only with lesser stats than are available in heroic version. What I speak of is a feeling, so it's hard to explain really. But if you agree you will know what I mean. This feeling that made World of Warcraft not a game but nothing greater is lost because of all raiding content being so accessible nowadays.

  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    No longer did the greatest players on the realm distinguish themselves by standing around Orgrimmar with gear I would dream to obtain.
    1. I might be wrong but I think it's probably a bit off to think that people stand around Orgrimmar/SW gawking and admiring others or ever really did for any length of time historically. I'm sure some do but most everyone I see seems to be going somewhere and always has. Most of us have better things to do and better ways to utilize our $15/month and time.

    2. Obsessing over precise definitions of words like 'normal' won't get anything done.

    3. I suppose the difficulty level between Flex and Heroic could be renamed Abnormal but I just wrote that to amuse myself and anyone else who reads it.

    To reiterate something I said earlier and that some others have written about in their own ways, any guild that is basically running Normal all the time and that can summon more than 10 players and less than 25 is going to experience an enormous amount of pressure from within the guild to run Flex. Pressure that guild and raid leaders would be smart to pay attention to. People dislike being sat out/benched now. Being sat out/benched when there's an option where everyone can play will be something that most people will not put up with. More than anything that's why I think Normal--Abnormal if you enjoyed my joke--is going to shrink up some.
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  18. #758
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Did you miss my part about "only content since when the normal tag was introduced"? I don't recall naxxramas being one of those raid instances. ToC (the other one you cited in your post) had a couple interesting mechanics which were actually pretty new at the time. Debuff clearing via other debuffs (Ascendant council anyone?), mechanics requiring people to be low HP (ra-den vita phase even if everybody skipped that), interacting with environment objects to gain buffs useful for the fight (stone guards in MSV), multiple bosses fight (mel'jarak, councils). You're being simplistic if you say ToC and ICC weren't in-depth raid as far as mechanics were concerned, or just ran them with 232 dungeon gear (ToC) and 20%+ nerf (ICC).



    Indeed, but you don't want to do without a random factor. First of all, without random as strange as it may sound it feels much more of a grind. Second, if there's an RNG factor you're actually more excited when you get a piece of upgrade compared to a system where you can schedule every single upgrade you're getting.



    Because Flex is being introduced, at least that's why I think they did it. And go tell all the guilds (including mine) that tried Lei shen pre and post item upgrades that valors are basically useless and upgrades are only a shadow of progression. 8% character power is an awful lot of a progression. Trading in a piece of gear gives you more consistent, less frequent upgrades. Just like heroic scenarios give less frequent but more consistent gear compared to heroic dungeons.



    Heck no. Moving away from features that the model expanded upon granted them success. They still mantained the model's core characteristics. You need to get a distinction between the two. You're still playing a character which isn't you but which you're impersonating in an online fantasy world where a lot of people are present.



    Except for helms (major flop, especially since they fixed it for 489 barrens gear but not for hreoic scenarios), how is it shit gear? Please elaborate. And again, valor does pay out. Heroic scenarios + valor = 524 gear, which is above the 522 of normal mode ToT.



    Yes, 5 man content dungeon queues are going to be faster, I said that in my post as well. There's however no difference between a one minute queue and a two minutes queue, and they could very well achieve that rate with the amount of players we currently have playing the game. And you're probably mistaking seeing drops for getting drops. In dungeons you're guaranteed to see items dropping, you're not guaranteed for them to drop what you need.
    Naxxramas was remade in wotlk. It counts. Your distinction is about before the tag was made is also likewise meaningless. The simple fact is that the game is far more complicated and difficult at end game then it was during well pretty much any point in it's history. Bring back any wotlk era boss and watch people laugh at how simple it is. ToC is an excellent example of this. Relative to today pretty much every raid in wotlk (with few notable exceptions in ulduar) was piss easy and far less complicated on both 25 and 10 man difficulties.

    Yes you do want to do without the random factor. Progression in an rpg is almost always deterministic. The constant dice roll of frustration ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It's not immersive to constantly get the same bag of dick over and over again and it's not what people are after in a video game clearly.

    8% power may be alot of progression but once again it's more progression for somebody at the top of raiding then it is for a guy upgrading a dungeon piece of gear one level. It's also a psychological bonus. Trading in one number for a number doesn't feel as rewarding as getting a new piece of gear. If it did you'd do that instead of raid. Nothing you offer as progression cannot possible fufil the roll of what people were doing to progress their characters throughout wotlk and cataclysm. If it was then people would stop raiding.

    It's shit gear that's poorly itemized and also looks like shit to. Valor does not pay out. You can be as hard headed and dense about this as you want but it does not pay out especially like it used to. If it did you'd stop raiding in favor of it.

    They haven't maintained many of the games core features. They abandoned dungeons this expansion. Why not abandon raids instead? They moved away from many of the models core characteristics INCLUDING difficulty and grind. They tried to bring back difficulty in cataclysm, people ran kicking and fucking screaming. They tried to bring back grind in mists people are running kicking and fucking screaming. The only people confused about this are you and the developers. The game was a success because it abandoned (increasingly so) the core characteristics and features of the mmo genre. Returning to them has only made the game poorer.

    Their is a huge difference between 1 minute and 2 minutes but thats the point. it's not a minute difference it's a huge difference.

    Ultimately you can't skirt around the fact that you acknowledge the behavior on the part of the player base in the last expansion (i.e skipping raid bosses and gearing up outside the raid) and then say everything is just as rewarding or heroic scenarios which you compare to dungeons are on balance as rewarding as heroic dungeons. They ARE NOT. Neither are the ancillary systems (i.e justice and more specifically valor).If they were the same behavior would return. Ultimately heroic scenarios and all the forms or progression outside the raid ARE NOT AS REWARDING as before. So yes this game and every activity outside of raiding pays out in far less, casuals are being told to accept far less and you can be okay with that but I'm not sure why you and the developers should expect people to be happy about accepting less. Especially when it's solely in the interest of a slim few so that they can keep playing more and more and not be bored.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 02:58 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Naxxramas was remade in wotlk. It counts. Your distinction is about before the tag was made is also likewise meaningless. The simple fact is that the game is far more complicated and difficult at end game then it was during well pretty much any point in it's history. Bring back any wotlk era boss and watch people laugh at how simple it is. ToC is an excellent example of this. Relative to today pretty much every raid in wotlk (with few notable exceptions in ulduar) was piss easy and far less complicated on both 25 and 10 man difficulties.
    The normal tag was introduced with ToC. That's when Blizzard officially defined one difficulty as normal, of course it matters. Everything before that wasn't defined as a standard and therefore shouldn't be used for comparison. Again, I've made you examples of mechanics in ToC which were used during cata and mop and yet all you do is go "lalalala wotlk raids are easy because I say so". Provide a source, explain why. And don't bother with 10man, that ship sailed with Cataclysm and the equalization of 10 and 25man formats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes you do want to do without the random factor. Progression in an rpg is almost always deterministic. The constant dice roll of frustration ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It's not immersive to constantly get the same bag of dick over and over again and it's not what people are after in a video game clearly.
    You can't do away with the random factor without everything sounding more like a chore and less like a hunt.Heck, having a schedule alone makes you think "I have to do this or I'll get my piece of loot one day after what I could". Having random drops, especially after the bad luck protection has been implemented (and I think it could do with being extended to LFR loot as well), is much more interesting because you never know what to expect something, but you're still guaranteed a certain rate of gearing up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    8% power may be alot of progression but once again it's more progression for somebody at the top of raiding then it is for a guy upgrading a dungeon piece of gear one level. It's also a psychological bonus. Trading in one number for a number doesn't feel as rewarding as getting a new piece of gear. If it did you'd do that instead of raid. Nothing you offer as progression cannot possible fufil the roll of what people were doing to progress their characters throughout wotlk and cataclysm. If it was then people would stop raiding.
    Heroic raiders already get huge diminishing returns on time spent/rewards. While a person might need a hour and a half to clear a LFR wing, to progress on a Heroic wing you're taking one week if it's easy, one month in cases of bosses like Lei Shen. There are already factors that make it so that playing a shitload gets rewarded less and less. That doesn't mean you have to make time a meaningless factor because time IS effort. You might be playing as much as you can in that two hours a week you're putting in the game, but you're still only putting in two hours a week. A guy that is putting fifteen hours a week (5x3 raids) is already putting more effort than you just because he's dedicating more time to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's shit gear that's poorly itemized and also looks like shit to. Valor does not pay out. You can be as hard headed and dense about this as you want but it does not pay out especially like it used to. If it did you'd stop raiding in favor of it.
    Poorly itemized? Not really, relying on RNG but even a non-optimal stat roll is pretty good. Looks like shit, seriously? Looks is what you bring up after having trsamogrifier implemented so you don't have to bitch about that? I never stopped raiding in cata when dungeons were out, I can't see why I would do it with Heroic Scenarios now. Keep in mind that developers' statements apply to the majority of people, not to every single one of them. Yes, efficiency is great, but instead of getting burnt out I stopped doing dailies in June, I stopped capping valor about that date as well and I didn't farm LFR to get guaranteed runestones while I was studying for my exams and therefore not raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They haven't maintained many of the games core features. They abandoned dungeons this expansion. Why not abandon raids instead? They moved away from many of the models core characteristics INCLUDING difficulty and grind. They tried to bring back difficulty in cataclysm, people ran kicking and fucking screaming. They tried to bring back grind in mists people are running kicking and fucking screaming. The only people confused about this are you and the developers. The game was a success because it abandoned (increasingly so) the core characteristics and features of the mmo genre. Returning to them has only made the game poorer.
    Wrong, dungeons have been mantained in the first patch, only the later ones have been dismissed. And keep in mind that dungeons aren't a core characteristic, they're a feature. A core characteristic is what you define by the name itself. No MMORPG would necessarily need dungeons (nor raids from the same point of view), you could do something such as Second Life where you're still roleplaying and have a go at it with loads of other people. A core characteristic is something you can deduct from its name and that therefore is part of the genre's definition. Massive multiplayer is, dungeons and raids aren't. They can ditch dungeons and raids, they can't ditch massive multiplayer content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Ultimately you can't skirt around the fact that you acknowledge the behavior on the part of the player base in the last expansion (i.e skipping raid bosses and gearing up outside the raid) and then say everything is just as rewarding or heroic scenarios which you compare to dungeons are on balance as rewarding as heroic dungeons. They ARE NOT. Neither are the ancillary systems (i.e justice and more specifically valor).If they were the same behavior would return. Ultimately heroic scenarios and all the forms or progression outside the raid ARE NOT AS REWARDING as before. So yes this game and every activity outside of raiding pays out in far less, casuals are being told to accept far less and you can be okay with that but I'm not sure why you and the developers should expect people to be happy about accepting less. Especially when it's solely in the interest of a slim few so that they can keep playing more and more and not be bored.
    The point is that you aren't accepting less. You're getting character progression (and yes, even thought you say it isn't as meaningful as before it actually is, since you can get a full gearset of above-normal-quality gear without raiding), you're getting content (scenarios) aimed specifically at you. What you're bitching about is that catch-up isn't as fast as before (which, again, can be argued on. I'd say it's more subject to RNG but averagely just as fast from the standpoint of a casual player, as I could gear a toon in about one/two days in HoT heroics) and that you can't get the same things heroic raiders do, but you never were able to.
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  20. #760
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The normal tag was introduced with ToC. That's when Blizzard officially defined one difficulty as normal, of course it matters. Everything before that wasn't defined as a standard and therefore shouldn't be used for comparison. Again, I've made you examples of mechanics in ToC which were used during cata and mop and yet all you do is go "lalalala wotlk raids are easy because I say so". Provide a source, explain why. And don't bother with 10man, that ship sailed with Cataclysm and the equalization of 10 and 25man formats.



    You can't do away with the random factor without everything sounding more like a chore and less like a hunt.Heck, having a schedule alone makes you think "I have to do this or I'll get my piece of loot one day after what I could". Having random drops, especially after the bad luck protection has been implemented (and I think it could do with being extended to LFR loot as well), is much more interesting because you never know what to expect something, but you're still guaranteed a certain rate of gearing up.



    Heroic raiders already get huge diminishing returns on time spent/rewards. While a person might need a hour and a half to clear a LFR wing, to progress on a Heroic wing you're taking one week if it's easy, one month in cases of bosses like Lei Shen. There are already factors that make it so that playing a shitload gets rewarded less and less. That doesn't mean you have to make time a meaningless factor because time IS effort. You might be playing as much as you can in that two hours a week you're putting in the game, but you're still only putting in two hours a week. A guy that is putting fifteen hours a week (5x3 raids) is already putting more effort than you just because he's dedicating more time to the game.



    Poorly itemized? Not really, relying on RNG but even a non-optimal stat roll is pretty good. Looks like shit, seriously? Looks is what you bring up after having trsamogrifier implemented so you don't have to bitch about that? I never stopped raiding in cata when dungeons were out, I can't see why I would do it with Heroic Scenarios now. Keep in mind that developers' statements apply to the majority of people, not to every single one of them. Yes, efficiency is great, but instead of getting burnt out I stopped doing dailies in June, I stopped capping valor about that date as well and I didn't farm LFR to get guaranteed runestones while I was studying for my exams and therefore not raiding.



    Wrong, dungeons have been mantained in the first patch, only the later ones have been dismissed. And keep in mind that dungeons aren't a core characteristic, they're a feature. A core characteristic is what you define by the name itself. No MMORPG would necessarily need dungeons (nor raids from the same point of view), you could do something such as Second Life where you're still roleplaying and have a go at it with loads of other people. A core characteristic is something you can deduct from its name and that therefore is part of the genre's definition. Massive multiplayer is, dungeons and raids aren't. They can ditch dungeons and raids, they can't ditch massive multiplayer content.



    The point is that you aren't accepting less. You're getting character progression (and yes, even thought you say it isn't as meaningful as before it actually is, since you can get a full gearset of above-normal-quality gear without raiding), you're getting content (scenarios) aimed specifically at you. What you're bitching about is that catch-up isn't as fast as before (which, again, can be argued on. I'd say it's more subject to RNG but averagely just as fast from the standpoint of a casual player, as I could gear a toon in about one/two days in HoT heroics) and that you can't get the same things heroic raiders do, but you never were able to.
    It doesn't matter, it simple meant the standard was just raid. PERIOD. TBC or before that. According to you the naming conventions are meaningless except when they aren't when it's convenient for your argument. As for citations I would suggest you ahven't given a single one and the mechanics you listed in ToC are all far simpler to their incarnations we see today where they are different and often piled on top of another entire pile of other mechanics. raiding is simple more complicated today then ever and that includes 25 man and 10 man (which you simple just can't dismiss because well hey people were doing those in wotlk) then it's even been. PERIOD. I'm done arguing about this because your so far god damn in denial it doesn't fucking matter.

    RNG is a chore. I find NOTHING interesting (and I don't know a single fucking soul who does) about random dice roll that goes on behind the screen especially when the loot tables are so god damn bloated and all the alternatives to aquiring loot outside of rng so god damn shitty. I find nothing interesting in constantly loosing the dice roll. To me that just reeks of lazy design and poor gameplay. RPGS are not rng dependant either but the developers seem to think this is the case.

    Yes really the heroic scenario gear is piss poor. It's not even tier pieces for gods sake or even normal raid worthy. It's SHIT compared to what you could get out of regular dungeons in the past.


    I don't care what you call the game. I mean they got rid of core RPG features (deterministic progression is a core rpg feature btw) but still claim it's an MMORPG. So the developers can and do remove central parts of the game all the time. Hell the game is LESS mmo now than ever and people play it solo every day without even seeing other folks. I'm not asking for them abandon the multiplayer model just not to cater to raiding. You don't need to have massive organized raids. You can still keep the massive without it, the massive could reflect the world or whatever. Nor do I need to think you need to keep the genre. That's just something your stuck on for no reason as far as I can tell. WoW is and always been less mmo and their is ZERO POINT ZERO reason to stick to the title mmo and think it means a fucking thing unless your trying to be ridiculous and argue for nothing.


    I'm done arguing this. The developers are giving you FAR LESS CHARACTER progression outside of the raid then they did in the past and this has made it ridiculously casual unfriendly. It's not just as fast nor is it as as good because if it was WED BE BACK IN CATACLYSM AND PEOPLE WOULD BE SKIPPING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT You are absolutely accepting less than you had before and it's PRECISELY to give other payers more to do and give more focus to raids. It's practically Orwellian to say you aren't accepting less. You can't even get the same shit NORMAL RAIDERS do anymore. It's fucking terrible. ANd while they pay lip service to alternatives the reality is their isn't any. You REFUSE to see anything outside of your narrow perspective and would rather argue nomenclature. Old thinking is what your all about and apparently so are the developers. Keep thinking old and the game will still feel old and people will continue to leave.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 06:08 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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